First Solo....well, kinda, sorta...

zaitcev said:
Exactly the same thing happened to me, too. The only difference was that it was my own airplane. Also, I ended with minor damage, about $850 all told, but the poor 172 is going to require a new firewall, a propeller, and an engine overhaul. Otherwise, exactly the same, with 5 landings, each ending with porpoising.
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Seriously?

No not kidding now.

Seriously?!

Have you fired your CFI yet?

I’m not even mad at you, I’m mad at your CFI... if you’re not kidding.
 
Sundancer said:
It was, wasn't it? Outcome aside, and consequences ignored, I kinda admire the mindset. . .
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I gotta say, I really don't. Humor value, sure, and I imagine most of your admiration is tongue in cheek, and that's cool.

But really -- PIC ability to make a decision and run with it? Pass, and then some. PIC ability to demonstrate good judgment and any bit of willingness to give up "what I want" in the interest of safety? Uh, no, fail, fail hard.

I don't imagine you really disagree, but this is the pilot training forum, and I'm not sure we need to put extra value on dangerous bravado.

Sincerely, today's wet blanket. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Have you fired your CFI yet?
Click to expand...

It was a little too late to fire him. Also, it probably wasn't his fault that I'm not just an idiot, but a cunning one. We spent about 12 hours on the t/w endorsement before I bought the plane. I learned to land and drive his t/w airplane rather well. Wheelies, crosswind, etc. All good, got my endorsement. But as it turned out, I learned to manipulate his airplane without understanding just what was going on.

The airplane that I bought is a single-seater, so I had to check myself out. It was significantly smaller than the CFI's airplane, with a shorter landing gear.

As I understand now, my porpoising was caused by flaring too high, then letting airplane descend in an attitude where mains were lower than the tailwheel. This, of course, makes it porpoise. I think I received the damage when after several attempts I was getting desperate to land. I decided to ride it out as far as I could, so I went around only after a leap that was particularly violent.

After landing purely accident on my 5th try, I went to watch something like 30 Youtube videos of people landing their tailwheel airplanes and formulated a plan to try: get as low as possible to the runway, get the nose high, etc. Then I did some chair flying, went to the airport, and it was all very easy. Well, I had to fix the airplane in the meanwhile.
 
zaitcev said:
It was a little too late to fire him. Also, it probably wasn't his fault that I'm not just an idiot, but a cunning one. We spent about 12 hours on the t/w endorsement before I bought the plane. I learned to land and drive his t/w airplane rather well. Wheelies, crosswind, etc. All good, got my endorsement. But as it turned out, I learned to manipulate his airplane without understanding just what was going on.

The airplane that I bought is a single-seater, so I had to check myself out.

As I understand now, my porpoising was caused by flaring too high, then letting airplane descend in an attitude where mains were lower than the tailwheel. This, of course, makes it porpoise. I think I received the damage when after several attempts I was getting desperate to land. I decided to ride it out as far as I could, so I went around only after a leap that was particularly violent.

After landing purely accident on my 5th try, I went to watch something like 30 Youtube videos of people landing their tailwheel airplanes and formulated a flight plan what to try: get as low as possible to the runway, get the nose high, etc. Then I did some chair flying, went to the airport, and it was all very easy. Well, I had to fix the airplane in the meanwhile.
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Hmmm. Okay I’m less mad at him, but there’s some techniques for figuring out how a particular TW airplane behaves and how to land it, that the old TW folks talk about around here locally.

I won’t pretend to be anything but a total dumbazz in a TW conversation, but I still wish he’d talked about those techniques to you, if he knew you were buying a single seater.

I could quote some of what I’ve heard, but mostly it would just be an exercise in me quoting things I haven’t done, so I’ll shut up instead. Haha.

Sorry you bent your airplane. A self checkout in a single seater can be an adventure, I suppose.
 
denverpilot said:
Sorry you bent your airplane. A self checkout in a single seater can be an adventure, I suppose.
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I knew a guy who flew P-47 in Africa and Sicily in WWII. He said that they checked themselves out. A senior officer stood on the wing, while the candidate sat in and recited what he would do from engine start, through one pattern, to shutdown. If recital went well, pilot took off and made a circuit. The old gentleman said that there was not one accident - everyone was successful, except one pilot. The dude sat in the plane, then said that he realized that could not do it, and climbed out. The engine on P-47 was making something like 1,600 hp. Retractable, too. Oh, and the squadron was flying P-39 before P-47, so they were nosewheel pilots.
 
So... as a CFI... this scenario actually scares me a little.

Let's say it was this miscreant's first flight. 2 hours of dual would be a pretty reasonable "first lesson/intro lesson"

I'm thinking about other "first lessons" I've given to interested parties.

I probably wouldn't have covered "limitations" of the student pilot yet.

I certainly wouldn't have chased away a future aviator by diving into part 61 with him.

I'd have done some basic airwork, maybe a lap around the area or catalina and showed the upside of aviation. It'd have been a fun demo/familiarization flight, not a very instructional one.

(I just gave 4 such rides in a Bonanza last week actually, so I'm reflecting on my actions -- luckily they had no access to the plane without my presence :) )

... now ...

let's say this kid, when pressed by the FAA, explains that he didn't know about signoffs, endorsements, etc -- and he just joined a flying club "to fly obviously" and "thought that's what he was paying for"

Grand larceny? Out.

Busted by FAA regs? He's hardly governed by them. Easy to say you don't know the 5 pounds of regs after 2 hours of dual. "He never said anything to me about solo endorsements"

like... we've all met those people who feign ignorance.. but... what possible response can the FAA have against the tactic? My thought? Hang the CFI. Someone's gotta pay.

I think the bulk of this person's punishment is going to be in the club bylaws. He owes a deductible maybe, or may suffer expulsion from a club that's down a plane. From my own experience with commercial plane insurance, they're going to send rip taylor down there to throw $100 bills at everyone to avoid risk of bad faith -- so I think the owner and club will be made whole. Insurance will then fail to subrogate. The club will fold from the weight of their new insurance premiums in 2-3 years, or "re-organize" under a new corp, since "new club" rates are cheaper than "club with a smooshed plane in its past" rates.

I'm assuming the 17 year old is not wealthy and somewhat judgement-proof.

...might he just get away with it? I've seen stupider things.
 
@schmookeeg - would just add something like “You will not have the required skills to fly an airplane safely by yourself until we have done many lessons together and I have certified under the FAA regulations that you are capable of solo flight. We will talk about and you’ll have to know the regulations that cover this.”, somewhere early in your meet and greet process. Not a big deal.

Expectations should be set on the ground long before you’re ever in the airplane.
 
schmookeeg said:
So... as a CFI... this scenario actually scares me a little.

Let's say it was this miscreant's first flight. 2 hours of dual would be a pretty reasonable "first lesson/intro lesson"

I'm thinking about other "first lessons" I've given to interested parties.

I probably wouldn't have covered "limitations" of the student pilot yet.

I certainly wouldn't have chased away a future aviator by diving into part 61 with him.

I'd have done some basic airwork, maybe a lap around the area or catalina and showed the upside of aviation. It'd have been a fun demo/familiarization flight, not a very instructional one.

(I just gave 4 such rides in a Bonanza last week actually, so I'm reflecting on my actions -- luckily they had no access to the plane without my presence :) )

... now ...

let's say this kid, when pressed by the FAA, explains that he didn't know about signoffs, endorsements, etc -- and he just joined a flying club "to fly obviously" and "thought that's what he was paying for"

Grand larceny? Out.

Busted by FAA regs? He's hardly governed by them. Easy to say you don't know the 5 pounds of regs after 2 hours of dual. "He never said anything to me about solo endorsements"

like... we've all met those people who feign ignorance.. but... what possible response can the FAA have against the tactic? My thought? Hang the CFI. Someone's gotta pay.

I think the bulk of this person's punishment is going to be in the club bylaws. He owes a deductible maybe, or may suffer expulsion from a club that's down a plane. From my own experience with commercial plane insurance, they're going to send rip taylor down there to throw $100 bills at everyone to avoid risk of bad faith -- so I think the owner and club will be made whole. Insurance will then fail to subrogate. The club will fold from the weight of their new insurance premiums in 2-3 years, or "re-organize" under a new corp, since "new club" rates are cheaper than "club with a smooshed plane in its past" rates.

I'm assuming the 17 year old is not wealthy and somewhat judgement-proof.

...might he just get away with it? I've seen stupider things.
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I don’t think ignorance of the law is a valid defense.
 
Salty said:
No. He had every right to have the key.
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Maybe in your club they hand out keys before people are trained or checked out, but that is a really poor practice.

Edit: with only 2 hours this kids legal defense might be they gave me a key and never explained to me I needed instructor written permission to solo. That story could be accurate.
 
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Clip4 said:
Maybe in your club they hand out keys before people are trained or checked out, but that is a really poor practice.
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Poor practice is not bad security, it's unwise policy. Although, I'd be pretty peeved if I couldn't sit in a club plane I was paying for and familiarize myself with it without an instructor present. I did this more than once in a rental at my school, and they didn't even charge me. I could have fired up the plane and flew away if I was so inclined. Oh, and this is the same airport where this had already happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Tampa_Cessna_172_crash
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe in your club they hand out keys before people are trained or checked out, but that is a really poor practice.
Edit: with only 2 hours this kids legal defense might be they gave me a key and never explained to me I needed instructor written permission to solo. That story could be accurate.
Click to expand...

You could not pre-flight that plane without the keys, since it's on a tie down and required to be locked (and probably covered unless they've changed the rules).

So key availability is necessary so that the student can get there and preflight at his own pace instead of paying a CFI to stand around for a 30 mins before and after a lesson.

It's really not an uncommon setup.
 
Salty said:
Poor practice is not bad security, it's unwise policy. Although, I'd be pretty peeved if I couldn't sit in a club plane I was paying for and familiarize myself with it without an instructor present. I did this more than once in a rental at my school, and they didn't even charge me. I could have fired up the plane and flew away if I was so inclined. Oh, and this is the same airport where this had already happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Tampa_Cessna_172_crash
Click to expand...
Ravioli said:
You could not pre-flight that plane without the keys, since it's on a tie down and required to be locked (and probably covered unless they've changed the rules).

So key availability is necessary so that the student can get there and preflight at his own pace instead of paying a CFI to stand around for a 30 mins before and after a lesson.

It's really not an uncommon setup.
Click to expand...

Maybe that club will evaluate that procedure, but 90% of a preflight can be done without ever entering the cockpit unless you think removing a gust lock, lowering the flaps, and checking the fuel gauges, lights, and stall warning take a lot of time

Currently I am at a very large club. Monitoring pilot qualifications and key control has a rather high priority.
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe that club will evaluate that procedure, but 90% of a preflight can be done without ever entering the cockpit.

Currently I am at a very large club. Monitoring pilot qualifications and key control has a rather high priority.
Click to expand...
That's wise.
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe that club will evaluate that procedure, but 90% of a preflight can be done without ever entering the cockpit unless you think removing a gust lock, lowering the flaps, and checking the fuel gauges, lights, and stall warning take a lot of time

Currently I am at a very large club. Monitoring pilot qualifications and key control has a rather high priority.
Click to expand...

So like, the first thing in the preflight is obtaining the checklist. Where's that? Locked inside?
Confirming the master switch is off and the key is off is pretty early on the checklist too. Helpful before touching the prop.
is that pesky parking brake set? Might make it hard to roll the tires to check for uneven wear.
Where do you keep that pesky fuel tester and dipstick?

I'll agree with you this guy was a bonehead. I'll disagree that "key policy" had anything to do with it.
 
Ravioli said:
So like, the first thing in the preflight is obtaining the checklist. Where's that? Locked inside?
Confirming the master switch is off and the key is off is pretty early on the checklist too. Helpful before touching the prop.
is that pesky parking brake set? Might make it hard to roll the tires to check for uneven wear.
Where do you keep that pesky fuel tester and dipstick?

I'll agree with you this guy was a bonehead. I'll disagree that "key policy" had anything to do with it.
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Like you have to use the checklist in the plane and one cannot be reproduced? And who sets the parking brake for a tied down airplane?
 
deyoung said:
I gotta say, I really don't. Humor value, sure, and I imagine most of your admiration is tongue in cheek, and that's cool.

But really -- PIC ability to make a decision and run with it? Pass, and then some. PIC ability to demonstrate good judgment and any bit of willingness to give up "what I want" in the interest of safety? Uh, no, fail, fail hard.

I don't imagine you really disagree, but this is the pilot training forum, and I'm not sure we need to put extra value on dangerous bravado.

Sincerely, today's wet blanket. :)
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Maybe just a little tongue in cheek, but not all that much. It's behaviour outside my threshold, for sure, but a lot of people taught themselves to fly in aircraft less forgiving than a 172. I imagine a few of them did some earth moving, or rained down in bloody chunks. . .also, I think people, even student pilots, are smart enough not to be influenced by casual web exchanges. Expressing my bemused admiration for this wacky act isn't likely to spur imitators. Heck, you wouldn't do it, and I know I wouldn't - I'll give 99% of the pilot population the same benefit of a doubt.
 
This kid has something wrong with him, hopefully the FAA will ban him from ever flying again. I don't want to share the sky with him.
 
Ohhhh man, one of my friends is part owner in this aircraft, he is not very happy at all. And go figure also a COP part time, what a mess.
 
zaitcev said:
Oh, and the squadron was flying P-39 before P-47, so they were nosewheel pilots.
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Hardly. Every one of them had Primary, Basic and Advance Training in tailwheel airplanes before they climbed into those P-39s. They had tamed the T-6 sufficiently to advance to fighters. So, they may have come from flying trikes, but they weren't nosewheel pilots by any stretch.
 
I see a control tower in the video. Assuming it was operational at the time, I wonder what they where thinking while watching that train wreck?
 
Something about the photo bothered me. It turns out it's the flaps. In my opinion, a 2 hour pilot wouldn't have known to deploy flaps for a landing. At least in my experience, the first few hours were getting used to straight and level flight and keeping the plane coordinated. But that's just my observations and guess.

That said - without the solo endorsement, he flew illegally. Visiting the flight club website, it appears all members are insured on the plane. I wonder if the insurance company will deny a claim since he was not signed off to solo the aircraft. And I further wonder what penalty the FAA will assign the student pilot.
 
Stingray Don said:
I see a control tower in the video. Assuming it was operational at the time, I wonder what they where thinking while watching that train wreck?
Click to expand...

There's a lot of flight training at KFUL, so I'm sure they were watching and cringing.

When I was a student pilot, I came in too fast and floated down the runway. They waited for me to land and taxi past the hold short line to say, "Wow, you must have been really heavy to float so far." :p
 
rtk11 said:
Something about the photo bothered me. It turns out it's the flaps. In my opinion, a 2 hour pilot wouldn't have known to deploy flaps for a landing. At least in my experience, the first few hours were getting used to straight and level flight and keeping the plane coordinated. But that's just my observations and guess.

That said - without the solo endorsement, he flew illegally. Visiting the flight club website, it appears all members are insured on the plane. I wonder if the insurance company will deny a claim since he was not signed off to solo the aircraft. And I further wonder what penalty the FAA will assign the student pilot.
Click to expand...

I’m sure the insurance will be going after him for some buckos at the same time they are giving the owner buckos. It’s called subrogation I think.
 
Sundancer said:
Maybe just a little tongue in cheek, but not all that much. It's behaviour outside my threshold, for sure, but a lot of people taught themselves to fly in aircraft less forgiving than a 172. I imagine a few of them did some earth moving, or rained down in bloody chunks. . .also, I think people, even student pilots, are smart enough not to be influenced by casual web exchanges. Expressing my bemused admiration for this wacky act isn't likely to spur imitators. Heck, you wouldn't do it, and I know I wouldn't - I'll give 99% of the pilot population the same benefit of a doubt.
Click to expand...

The Hoove built a reputation crashing airplanes and went on to make a career out of what he learned doin it. Don’t know if he ever stole one though
 
Bulldog573 said:
Touch and...touch and...touch and go...

He’s lucky this wasn’t much worse.
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Holy hell. Lucky is right. Lucky he didn't stall it out on the go around or something crazy.. Talk about stupid...
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe that club will evaluate that procedure, but 90% of a preflight can be done without ever entering the cockpit unless you think removing a gust lock, lowering the flaps, and checking the fuel gauges, lights, and stall warning take a lot of time

Currently I am at a very large club. Monitoring pilot qualifications and key control has a rather high priority.
Click to expand...

Place I rent from stays on top of it. I just had to get a 90 day checkout. I didn’t need a FAA one, just one from them because I hadn’t rented one of their planes for awhile. Ironically, the CFI was medically grounded but I had 3 landings in the last 90 days so we got it done. How does your club do key control? Is there someone on ‘duty’ controlling it?
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe in your club they hand out keys before people are trained or checked out, but that is a really poor practice.

Edit: with only 2 hours this kids legal defense might be they gave me a key and never explained to me I needed instructor written permission to solo. That story could be accurate.
Click to expand...

Oh, I’m sure some F. Lee Bailey wannabe is going to play that card and maybe rake in a third of the pot.
 
Salty said:
I don’t think ignorance of the law is a valid defense.
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Unless your last name rhymes with Dump. ;).

This kid will probably be made into an example of maximum punishment available. Maybe life in prison, no parole. ‘Merica.
 
Lachlan said:
Unless your last name rhymes with Dump. ;).

This kid will probably be made into an example of maximum punishment available. Maybe life in prison, no parole. ‘Merica.
Click to expand...
Applies far better to Clinton, but nice job dragging non relevant politics into The thread. Feel better about her losing now?
 
schmookeeg said:
So... as a CFI... this scenario actually scares me a little.

Let's say it was this miscreant's first flight. 2 hours of dual would be a pretty reasonable "first lesson/intro lesson"

I'm thinking about other "first lessons" I've given to interested parties.

I probably wouldn't have covered "limitations" of the student pilot yet.

I certainly wouldn't have chased away a future aviator by diving into part 61 with him.

I'd have done some basic airwork, maybe a lap around the area or catalina and showed the upside of aviation. It'd have been a fun demo/familiarization flight, not a very instructional one.

(I just gave 4 such rides in a Bonanza last week actually, so I'm reflecting on my actions -- luckily they had no access to the plane without my presence :) )

... now ...

let's say this kid, when pressed by the FAA, explains that he didn't know about signoffs, endorsements, etc -- and he just joined a flying club "to fly obviously" and "thought that's what he was paying for"

Grand larceny? Out.

Busted by FAA regs? He's hardly governed by them. Easy to say you don't know the 5 pounds of regs after 2 hours of dual. "He never said anything to me about solo endorsements"

like... we've all met those people who feign ignorance.. but... what possible response can the FAA have against the tactic? My thought? Hang the CFI. Someone's gotta pay.

I think the bulk of this person's punishment is going to be in the club bylaws. He owes a deductible maybe, or may suffer expulsion from a club that's down a plane. From my own experience with commercial plane insurance, they're going to send rip taylor down there to throw $100 bills at everyone to avoid risk of bad faith -- so I think the owner and club will be made whole. Insurance will then fail to subrogate. The club will fold from the weight of their new insurance premiums in 2-3 years, or "re-organize" under a new corp, since "new club" rates are cheaper than "club with a smooshed plane in its past" rates.

I'm assuming the 17 year old is not wealthy and somewhat judgement-proof.

...might he just get away with it? I've seen stupider things.
Click to expand...

Hipsterdelphia....ROTFLMAO. Where do you fly out of?
 
Stingray Don said:
I see a control tower in the video. Assuming it was operational at the time, I wonder what they where thinking while watching that train wreck?
Click to expand...

To bad there isn’t a LiveATC recording of this. A TVR(think cvr) would be priceless. But then just about any TVR would be
 
Salty said:
Applies far better to Clinton, but nice job dragging non relevant politics into The thread. Feel better about her losing now?
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What are you talking about? The fly-in in Iowa in late July? That’s the only Clinton I know anything about. ;)
 
Ravioli said:
@denverpilot proven correct again
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That an argument would start about the key and access thing for students, or what? The CFIs got to like 50+ posts about it, so yeah. LOL. Was a cute little brawl they were all having. :)

Skyking517 said:
Ohhhh man, one of my friends is part owner in this aircraft, he is not very happy at all. And go figure also a COP part time, what a mess.
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Well that should come in handy. At least he doesn’t have to wait around for a cop to write the police report to send to his insurance company. :)
 
luvflyin said:
Place I rent from stays on top of it. I just had to get a 90 day checkout. I didn’t need a FAA one, just one from them because I hadn’t rented one of their planes for awhile. Ironically, the CFI was medically grounded but I had 3 landings in the last 90 days so we got it done. How does your club do key control? Is there someone on ‘duty’ controlling it?
Click to expand...

At one large club, there is staff that checks the customer out.

At another large club, there is a computer controlled mail box system and the pilot is given an athorization code for each reservation that allows access to the key and log book.

At a smaller club, the key is in a lock box and the combination is changed monthly.

At another small club without students, each pilot is given their own key after they meet the check out requirements. The hangar combination is changed regularly and pilots who are not current cannot access the hangar.
 
Clip4 said:
At one large club, there is staff that checks the customer out.

At another large club, there is a computer controlled mail box system and the pilot is given an athorization code for each reservation that allows access to the key and log book.

At a smaller club, the key is in a lock box and the combination is changed monthly.

At another small club without students, each pilot is given their own key after they meet the check out requirements. The hangar combination is changed regularly and pilots who are not current cannot access the hangar.
Click to expand...

The authorization code per reservation method would keep the lid on a little tighter
 
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