First semi "forced" landing

[SkyHog]

Richard told me I could post this, even though technically it was his landing in his plane, after I relinquished controls to him:

It was a dark and gloomy night.....

Wait, that's not how it goes.....

It was a HOT and clear day. We flew down to Parker, AZ for some fun in Richard's Cherokee. It felt great to get back into the left seat of a Cherokee again. Everything's going smooth and awesome, and I even let Richard practice his CFIing on me (he's gonna be a great CFI soon) on the way down from Lake Havasu.

We leave Parker, Richard lets me do the takeoff. We fly a normal pattern and on base, I give Richard the plane. We come down and do a low pass over the runway, building energy and zooming up to Pattern Altitude. We turn crosswind, and he hands the controls back to me.

We depart the pattern off the downwind, heading for a little pass in the mountains between Parker and Lake Havasu for some fun low flight over the mountains. Leaving the pattern, I do the overly complex after takeoff checklist: "Flaps retract, Landing Light off, Fuel Pump off."

Richard: "I do a flow check."
Me: "Yeah, unfortunately, I've gotten a bit lazy with the physical checklist after flying in my Cherokee for so long."
Richard: "Just don't be lazy in a complex airplane, man"
Me: "Yeah, I know, but believe me......what was that?"

The engine starts losing power. It drops about 500rpm and then surges back to full power. Then again. I grab the PTT and declare that we're turning back to land at Parker, begin the turn towards the airport and tell Richard "You want me to land it, or you want it?"

Richard takes the plane and does one of the most beautiful slips from about 3000agl almost down to the ground (lot of altitude to lose to get down in time).

We taxi to the ramp, Richard checks the mags with a full power runup. All is good. He tries to lean, and just leaning about 1/8th of an inch makes the engine start behaving in the same way it did in the air.

Richard shuts down, and we examine the engine. Its HOT. Might be normal, I've never really opened the cowling on an airplane after running it that hard in 100F degree heat, but man was it hot.

Richard checks the mixture cable and find no discontinuity and no apparant binding. He decides he's gonna fuel up and try to fly the pattern to troubleshoot (we were so close to the airport when it happened, we didn't have time to troubleshoot in the air).

I decide to stay on the ground to call 911 if necessary. Richard starts up the plane to taxi for fuel, while taxiing, he notices the mixture is hard to lean at all, it then releases and starts moving normally, and operating normally as well, no more roughness with leaning.

Its starting to get late, the sun's going down, and Richard makes the best decision possible: That plane is staying in Parker. No need to troubleshoot an airplane in night conditions in an area away from home.

So - the vitals on the situation: Fuel: 10gallons left tank, 7gallons right tank. OAT: ~100 degrees farenheit.

Right now, I'm filled with a few different emotions. Number 1, I am thrilled that Richard and I worked together as a team and got the airplane down safely without any discussion as to what the procedure would be. Number 2, I am a bit concerned about what would have happened had the problem happened about 10 minutes later when we were in the mountains instead. Number 3, I'm confused about what could have happened, but I have some suspicions. And finally, I'm a bit tripped out and in disbelief that we just experienced what we did.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Sounds like you guys did good, and I'm REALLY glad you got down safely. Let us know what the cause is when you get it figured out.

 

[SCCutler]

You broke it, Nick.

 

[wsuffa]

Sounds like you did the right thing. And sounds like a mixture/carb issue.

Do you have engine monitoring or a carb temp gauge? Invaluable to troubleshoot problems....

 

[gismo]

Could be a vapor lock issue given the heat and low fuel level (less head pressure).

 

[gprellwitz]

A precautionary landing like this is always better than a truly forced one! Glad you're down safe!

 

[AdamZ]

You broke it, Nick.

Yeah thats what I figure!

 

[Michael]

So i go to take Richard to Parker this morning, And during our taxi, I notice the airspeed is not working. We taxi back to maintenance and proceed to shove a large wire into the pitot to unblock the little bugs that like to make pitots home this time of year. Lots of bug guts come out and the airspeed is working again. We taxi back to the runway, take off and at 3000 ft i look at the fuel pressure reading 0. turn on the electric pump and the fuel pressure is back upto normal. Turn the pump off and the pressure agin starts dropping. Great, looks like my engine driven pump is shot. So we turn around and land back at havasu, uneventful. My mech is going to look at the pump today. And Richard and I will drive back to Parker to troubleshoot his problems.
Its looking like theres a fuel virus out there guys....be careful.

 

[markb5900]

Maybe it isn't Nick this time. Sounds like when Richard is in the plane you are going to have problems.


Mark B

 

[poadeleted20]

It is always better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here. Good decisions.

 

[Richard]

After the low pass I pitched to 29.5 degree climb and then a 59.9 degree roll onto left cross. We never went negative G when leveling out at TPA from the zoom climb.

A few moments after Nick turned off the fuel pump is when the engine began to sputter...I first thought it was a dry tank because that's exactly how it felt. I've run the tanks dry on this plane before and without problem. I think it was the combination of high OAT, excessive maneuvering, and drawing from a 25 gal. tank with only 6-7 gallons in the tank. I too think it was simply vapor lock as Lance said. The ignition system looked a-ok and checked out normal.

Because we were well within glide to the airport, the decision was a no brainer and we both instantaneously reacted as we turned back for a landing. As Nick flew I scanned the gauges and switches but didn't bother with any troubleshooting until on the ground.

On the ground everything looked fine. I switched to the fuller left tank and ran it up with no problem on the mixture. But it was twilight and there were mountains along our route so we broke the chain by calling Michael's shuttle service. I wasn't yet fully confident of knowing the problem so I wanted last night to think about it. After the multiple run ups and other troubleshooting I did and having thought about it, I am convinced it was a fuel problem at the tank.

RE: the conversation about use of checklists. What I said was don't get lazy, develop the habit of using the checklists. A Cherokee is about the most simple plane there is but when he transitions to complex is when he'll really appreciate forming the habit.


Mark, you nailed it and I really don't have a good comeback except...did you fly this week? No?, well I did. neener neener

 

[jesse]

After the low pass I pitched to 29.5 degree climb and then a 59.9 degree roll onto left cross. We never went negative G when leveling out at TPA from the zoom climb.

uh huh...

 

[poadeleted20]

After the low pass I pitched to 29.5 degree climb and then a 59.9 degree roll onto left cross.

Ain't no Cherokee can sustain 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank for 90 degrees of turn -- too much drag, too little power.

 

[tonycondon]

nah ron, after the low pass he had the speed up to about 400 knots, then he lit EdFreds STC'd RATO pack on his wheel pants to help him out around the turn.

 

[Pilawt]

Wow, it looks like it was an interesting few days for several of us in Arizona.

Cheryl and I flew to KIWA (Williams-Gateway, ~20 SE of Phoenix) for the holiday weekend to visit the grandkids. While there I PM'd Mike and tentatively arranged to drop in at Lake Havasu for a cup of coffee on my way home Tuesday. He said Richard might be there, as well, and I was looking forward to the visit.

That changed Monday morning when I loaded the grandkids into the Bonanza Monday morning to take them for a ride. The starter wouldn't budge, although there was enough juice to run the electric fuel pump. Well, there is no maintenance available at KIWA, and nobody anywhere working on the holiday. So I waited until early Tuesday, when a mechanic drove 15 miles from another airport. He said the Arizona heat is brutal to batteries (mine is nine years old), and they see this all the time. So he took it out and drove it back to his shop to see if it would hold a charge.

Hours later, with the battery back in, still no action from the starter. Then the mech discovered that the clamp that connects the battery cable to the starter had sheared. We didn't notice it earlier because the break was hidden by the rubber sleeve. So the mechanic had to make a second trip back to his shop to repair the clamp, and I was finally off the ground just after noon, too late to make the Havasu stop. (I hope someday they'll get a mx facility at KIWA! But in the meantime, here's a big shout out and a thank you to the nice folks at Arizona Aviation at Stellar Airpark.)

Near St. George, Utah, at 14,500', the engine starting running a bit rough, and the EGT on #4 went up about 75 degrees. A mag check inflight showed no difference on either mag, so I deduced it was a fuel issue. Further leaning caused #4 EGT to drop off the bottom of the scale while the others were still rising, supporting the notion that something was blocking fuel to that cylinder. When I stopped for fuel at Elko a mechanic cleaned the injector on #4. That fixed it, but delayed me yet another hour, and I finally got home to KVUO at 8 PM.

So by comparison with Richard, Nick and Michael, my problems were minor. But it's odd we all had "issues" at the same time. Full moon, perhaps?

-- Pilawt

 

[mikea]

So i go to take Richard to Parker this morning, And during our taxi, I notice the airspeed is not working. We taxi back to maintenance and proceed to shove a large wire into the pitot to unblock the little bugs that like to make pitots home this time of year. Lots of bug guts come out and the airspeed is working again. We taxi back to the runway, take off and at 3000 ft i look at the fuel pressure reading 0. turn on the electric pump and the fuel pressure is back upto normal. Turn the pump off and the pressure agin starts dropping. Great, looks like my engine driven pump is shot. So we turn around and land back at havasu, uneventful. My mech is going to look at the pump today. And Richard and I will drive back to Parker to troubleshoot his problems.
Its looking like theres a fuel virus out there guys....be careful.

How does the engine run if the fuel pressure is really zero? I vote for a sticky needle in the gauge. Mine sticks when I check the aux fuel pump at run up so I tap it to see the pressure change.

 

[Michael]

How does the engine run if the fuel pressure is really zero? I vote for a sticky needle in the gauge. Mine sticks when I check the aux fuel pump at run up so I tap it to see the pressure change.

I hit the pump before it actually hit 0. I didn't feel like waiting to see if the engine was going to quit or not.

 

[Ghery]

here's a big shout out and a thank you to the nice folks at Arizona Aviation at Stellar Airpark.)


-- Pilawt

IWA is a familiar airport, but, unfortunately, as a passenger. Our corporate shuttle flights from Oregon and California land there. And I drive by Stellar getting to the plant. Too HOT in the spring, summer and early fall for me.

 

[poadeleted20]

The fuel pressure gauge measures differential pressure across the sensor. Thus, if the differential is exactly zero, then the fuel system is supplying exactly as much fuel as the engine is demanding, and the engine will run fine as long as no more fuel is demanded. It's only when the demand exceeds supply that the noise level diminishes.

 

[Richard]

All is well. Nick flew me down in a *cough* nice 172 rental. I did a long run-up and then one lap in the patt. Taxi back for departure and extended upwind to join on Nick in 1 mile trail. Going between the 3,000' peaks on the way to Lake Havasu was cool. I wished I had my camera for some good pics of Nick.

I strongly believe the problem was vapor lock. Simple, but I stand by my decision; I had a pax too nervous to make the return flight, it was becoming night, and there was mtn terrain. Plus, I wanted to spend time to think about the problem before launching.


Uneventful landing....after a crazy busy pattern. Evidently, several 141 flight schools from Phoenix and Kingman use Havasu a lot. X/C downwind legs in a 747 pattern and all kinds of interesting arrivals and pattern entries....

BTW: on my fancy climb out I was wing level waaaaay before I completed my 90 for the crosswind. I had no choice; as Michael would say, Dude, it's a Piper.

 

[Pilawt]

IWA is a familiar airport, but, unfortunately, as a passenger. Our corporate shuttle flights from Oregon and California land there.

Then you'll recognize these scenes. You never know what you'll park next to at KIWA.

The first photo is from our first trip there, when we had the Cheetah; the second was last year, and the photo with the Corsair was two days ago.

-- Pilawt

 

[Richard]

Mine sticks when I check the aux fuel pump at run up so I tap it to see the pressure change.

Truly, the single best time to know the elec fuel pump is working correctly is when you first turn it on. Usually that is at engine start. This is when you watch the instrument needle as you turn on the pump. Any other time you may notice a change in fuel pressure but you may not know if it was the elec or engine driven fuel pump since the engine is already running.

 

[Richard]

Right now, I'm filled with a few different emotions. Number 1, I am thrilled that Richard and I worked together as a team and got the airplane down safely without any discussion as to what the procedure would be. Number 2, I am a bit concerned about what would have happened had the problem happened about 10 minutes later when we were in the mountains instead. Number 3, I'm confused about what could have happened, but I have some suspicions. And finally, I'm a bit tripped out and in disbelief that we just experienced what we did.

I've been thinking about this.

No. 1: You're right, we did work as a team. I guess I took it for granted that we were like minded in our immediate reaction. I didn't think it was any big deal but having thought about it I realize there could have been any of several permutations about how that first response would have turned out.

No. 2: You take what you can get. Fly the biggest piece to a safe landing (as much as that may be possible) Plan ahead, don't quit until the dust begins to settle. This scenario was a huge factor in my decision to leave the plane at Parker.

No. 3: A pre-flight inspection for pilots is not much more than a visual inspection. Pretty much the same for a pre-flight run-up. You don't really know what the problem is in some cases. Another factor in deciding to leave the plane at Parker was what if we thought we ID'd the problem but it turned out to be that and something else, or something else all together? We spoke of managed risk, this was more risk than I was willing to accept at that moment. I had to decide how absolutely positive I was in determining the nature of the problem Vs the conditions at hand.

Finally, expect the unexpected. Always. Remember when I asked you where you would put down in the event of engine failure? Then I dipped the wing to reveal a pvt paved rwy.... Always be aware of your situation.

This is not so much about Nick or me, it's about all of us. Let this be a gentle nudge in your ribs to not become complacent or lazy.

 

[Henning]

I've been thinking about this.

Finally, expect the unexpected. Always...

Esspecially with your plane....

 

[Richard]

Good one, Henning. Yeah, I'm half surprised it even gets in the air.