First Plane Minimum 200hp (Business Use) Keeping 3-5 Years - Suggestions?

[MooneyDriver78]

For most 182 versus most Arrows, I'd have to disagree. Yes, there are a few corner cases where an Arrow is faster than a 182, but I wouldn't consider that the norm.

He’s probably thinking of the turbo version.

 

[John Spartan]

I just buy whatever six seat I was interested in if that’s your ultimate goal. Five years from now you will have fixed everything the way that you want or added things that you like. And that would be the most proficient airplane for you to fly that many people in. Cherokee 6 I think? I’ve seen several that look really great.

Although if I were you, I would just build a sling high wing with an edge 917 and fly four comfortably all the time for the rest of my days. That’s outside your budget of course. And does nothing for your mission. You say you will have in five years. Are you really sure in five years you’ll be regularly flying six people?

 

[Sinistar]

Don't forget about hangar(s). You will most likely want one at your home base (rent or buy). Might be nice to at least have a rental at the most common destination since you might make it there but then wx prevents departure and its a nasty thunderstorm (hail / high winds). Nice thing about a rental at the destination is you could leave a another car there.

Not sure why it has to be 200HP - example the later model Cardinals have a 180HP and a CSP and cruise pretty quick.

Since you are open to retract perhaps consider retract 177 and retract 182.

While you are doing your PPL and since it is winter.Think about your upcoming business trips that you will be driving or flying commercial. Then run the trip through the GA naviputer (foreflight or GP) and see if you would have launched on time. See if the return would have worked. A really cheap way to learn what dispatch would be sans FIKI. And you'll get great[er] at aviation wx while doing your PPL. You could even run one or two trip possibilities by your CFI. See if they would have flown it.

 

[cowtowner]

I do this. Not every week, but 200 plus hours of flying a year

I did it in a 180hp Cherokee for three years then upgraded to a Columbia 400

If you are going from Kansas to Houston, you need a faster (more expensive) plane

 

[FPK1]

OK, thanks. let me ask a clarification question here: Does that mean that you can deduct the cost of those flights and the plane as business expenses, even without a CPL?

Yes

 

[Sayajin]

LOL, no disdain, just an observation that there were lots of "my situation is this, what plane is best for me" type of questions lately. I don't mind them. I encourage them. Means more people getting into GA. Curiously enough, my recommendation on the last few (including yours) is Comanche. I'm biased though, but so is probably anyone who suggests Mooney, Arrow, or whatever else they'll suggest.

Thank you for the information and the insight, I appreciate it. My A&P actually showed me a Commanche 250 last week and said he thinks it would be a variable option.

Lemme stop you right there...

No worries, I completely understand this is not an "investment" from an appreciating asset with an ROI standpoint. Many assets (per your company Balance Sheet) depreciate and I am fine with that. I meant an investment more from a capital expenditure standpoint with a "cash out" in a relatively short period of time. (shorter than the timeframe the IRS generally allows for a fixed depreciation schedule of assets on a balance sheet)

It's not disdain. If it was I wouldn't have started off by trying to earnestly answer your question!

But there's been about 4 similar posts in the last several days, all being slightly similar. So it feels like groundhogs day sometimes.

That said, good luck in your search for the right bird.

Thank you, I completely understand where you are coming from and I appreciate the insight and input. I did make it a point to read as many articles/posts as I could prior to making my post and wanted to make sure that I explained that I did as much research as I felt was necessary before making this post. I have spoken to several pilots, A&P, other business owners with planes, my CFI, and various online sources before I narrowed down my short list. However, I know that the people on this forum have practical experience and applications that may not be present in the sources I consulted which is why I wanted to ask here.

The OP is referring to flying for business related to the company he owns and operates. A commercial certificate is not required to fly others (his employees or customers or vendors) in his business while traveling for business purposes. If he were charging or receiving compensation for his pilot services or for passenger’s travel that is unrelated to his travel needs, that would fall into another category.

This is correct. No one is paying me to do any flying (nor would I be flying clients). This would be a circumstance where I am flying with my regional corporate team (or individual member) from one location to another. IE, the person traveling with me is responsible for the 3-5 stores in Missouri, so we fly to the 2-3 different cities to manage operations at each location as opposed to driving.

All true and clear. That said, even if I can only fly the trip 5 or 6 times a year, it's worth it.

Here's the rub: Commercial flight schedules are terrible. Nearly everywhere I go, I have to make a stop at a hub somewhere, and that adds anywhere from 1-3 hours (sometimes more).

One of my regular destinations is MKE. The last flight out on Sunday varies seasonally, but most of the year it's about 4:00, which means getting to the airport by 3:00, which in turn means leaving my farm by 2:00. Even with that schedule I end up getting to Houston (IAH) at 11PM, which means getting to my condo at about 12:30. If I take the first flight out Monday morning, I don't get to my office until 1:30 in the afternoon, which is a no-go. The inbound flight Friday night or Saturday morning is similar. ORD adds 2 hours in each direction, so it's a non-starter.

The GA alternative is taking off from KETB, 5 minutes from my farm, and arriving at KEFD, 15 minutes from my condo. With a 5 hour flight time, I have cut my total travel time in half; even with a quick stop along the way, its a big time savings. Those are hours that I get to spend with my wife, kids, and granddaughter, as opposed to running around between gates in ATL/DTW/MSP. How much effort and $$$ is that family time worth?

Now, add to that the fact that it gives me a family related "excuse" to pursue something that I've wanted to do most of my life (flying), and it's a bit of a no-brainer. Since it's travel between businesses, the cost is also a business expense, which effectively rebates about 40 cents for every dollar I spend.

[OP: Sorry for hijacking the thread...]

No worries, this actually is helpful as I am in a very similar situation. I have 2 young daughters and a wife that stay home in Kansas. I am at the point where my time is my most important asset. While GA may not always convert to more time, it does 50-60% of the time which is enough for me. That 4hr drive to Kansas City turns into a 2hr flight, each way. Even with pre-flight, that gives me another 2 hours+ with my family. Also, it allows me to be comfortable with expansion outside of my "target market". It goes from I need locations that I can drive to within 2 hours (120 miles or so) to locations I need to be able to access (fly to) in the same period of time. There is a big difference. One of the biggest aspects for me is that I am in the automotive industry. So not being able to fly due to inclement weather isnt a big deal. I understand that my budget does not allow for a FIKI aircraft as well as doesnt allow for long cross county or even inclement weather flights. That`s okay with me. I have been driving from location to location for the past several years, so even I can only do it 50% less, its still better for me. Worst case scenario, the weather is bad and I need to drive home. No big deal, I jump in a truck and drive home and leave it there. An employee drives it back the next day. If I travel far, I do what you mentioned. Buy a last minute flight on United and Fly Home. Being stranded isn't even (generally) a consideration for me.

Side note, when I told my wife I was "buying a plane to come home more often/faster" it made all the difference as opposed to "I need a plane because my time is valuable at work".

I love that you want to do this, and I think that you should go for it. But as a very wise instructor told me after I got my instrument and was telling him of my great plans, he said: "Baby steps, Paul, baby steps." Your PPL is a beginning (so you haven't really started yet), not an end to your learning, and like me, even a few years after my instrument, there is a lot to learn, a lot of situations to experience, and a lot of good decisions that need to be made. The most dangerous aspect of how you want to use an airplane is the risk of having to be somewhere when you shouldn't fly. If you succumb to this, you can and very likely will have a tragic outcome.

Also I think your budget is too low for what you want to do. FIKI or at least an inadvertent ice system is something you probably should have. An older Cirrus, Mooney or Bo would be a good fit for you I think, but you are looking at at least double to triple your proposed initial outlay. My opinion.

I completely understand and agree with you. The reason for my $120k budget is not an affordability constraint. It is a constraint based upon the research I have done that allows me to accomplish my mission, checks most (not all) of my boxes, is comfortable for me to learn and get more experience in and is generally within the budgets of most other GA pilots for a resale standpoint in a few years. I know I wont get my money out of my aircraft in 3-5 years and I am okay with that. As someone else mentioned, I care that it is more liquid and I sell it easily and quickly than I do about it being top of the line and "exclusive". There are a lot more people looking for a $120k aircraft (which is even less when I go to sell it) than there are guys looking for a $300k aircraft. Plus, I dont think/feel comfortable that I could handle a $300k aircraft at this point in my GA career. I would rather be "forced" to have to drive or fly commercial than to think my aircraft could handle things and lets fly. With my criteria, it makes the decision much easier to say that today is not a day to fly. Built in humble pie.

 

[Sayajin]

What are you training in?

What does your CPA say about your current and future aviation plans?

My primary trainer is a Piper 140. Also have access to a Cessna 172, Piper Commanche 250, and Piper Archer II at my local airport without having to join a club or rent something special. My plan is to go to a larger airport/rental club, spend a week and fly all of the aircraft (with my CFI) to make a determination before I buy a plane. I would generally get my PPL in my 140 and then get my endorsements and further training in my owned aircraft. I dont have the plan or expectation to fly in my aircraft without my PPL for the first month or 2. I would simply pay him to fly with me and get him a hotel as necessary until I felt proficient with my aircraft. He has already said this is something he looks forward to.

My CPA thinks its a great idea. I put the plane on my balance sheet and am able to utilize accelerated deprecation as opposed to straight line deprecation. All of my flights, insurance, hanger expense, PPL training, etc, are direct expenses of the business (as someone mentioned, figure a 40% discount). The plane is a direct asset of the business (Georgia Aviation LLC for tax purposes) which ties directly into business usage for an IRS stress test. Same thing as I decide to upgrade in the future (withstanding a significant change in current tax law by future administrations)

Lots of good advice given.
Another very serious point to consider, beyond the nuts and bolts of which airplane, etc., is, how "busy" is your business? By that I mean, you really need to assess whether you would be in a good mental state to safely plan and execute your flights, say, at the end of a stressful business day, late evening, after dark, weather moving in, etc. You've mentioned 2 or 3 400 mile trips a week, that starts to look a lot like a full-time corporate flying job. Can it be done with an owner/businessman flown plane? Certainly, and that scenario happens dozens, if not hundreds of times a week all across the country. But, be honest with yourself, and make sound decisions from there.
By all means, finish your PPL, and go for instrument rating. Maybe while doing that, hire your CFI, or another pro pilot, to go along on a few actual business day flights, just to get a feel for how it will all really work.

Generally speaking, yes, I dont have or expect to have those issues. Yes, my business is stressful, but as mentioned before, I generally drive to locations. So I am not working on other aspects on the way to the business. I am focused on the drive itself. Most of my flights (90% currently) are 2-3 hour flights. I get up at 0430 every day anyway, so not a huge deal there. If I decide I dont want to fly home or to the next location, I generally have a condo/hotel in the city for me to stay at. As mentioned above, simply jumping in a vehicle and driving is always an option. I am actually flying with my CFI tomorrow morning for a business trip to get an idea for things. I was planning on driving but at the last minute asked him if he wanted to hop in a plane and fly there. I told him I would have a driver at the airport waiting so he and the driver could grab a late breakfast or early lunch during my meeting. Plus, it gives me more practice with patterns and take off and landings in a relatively unfamiliar airport.

While you are training, take every opportunity to network and fly every plane you can, talk to the owners, talk to the mechanics. You can crunch the numbers and everything will be perfect on paper but you may find that you don't like the comfort or ergonomics for frequent long flights in a particular make and model.
I would join one or more clubs if I were you. As much flying as you plan to do, no way having access to only one plane is going to cut it. Don't underestimate how much time your plane will live in a mechanic's shop or in your hangar/tiedown down for a squawk.

Thank you for this information, I didint even consider joining clubs while owning a plane. However your point of view makes sense to me. As mentioned above, I plan to fly all of the aircraft on my short list before actually pulling the trigger. And then after that, I still plan to have my CFI fly with me until I feel "proficient" in my aircraft. I will also probably have him fly with me on almost all of my "first times" at a major/busy airport until I feel comfortable with them. I will do some research on joining various clubs to see what is available in my target markets.

 

[Llk]

Once I worked for the #1 stock of the decade for a while. I covered from blue bell to chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Ohio, Indiana, Minneapolis and everything in between. I chose to fly for work when I could.

Along the way I upgraded to a turbo mooney, not FIKI.

I flew it everywhere.

Did I panic once or twice because freezing rain began to build? You bet.
Did I end up landing on runways covered in snow? Yuup.
“Braking action: poor” on ATIS?
Absolutely. That sucked. Weather so bad the airliners were grounded but somehow I didn’t get the memo, and my head left a few dents on the fuselage? Sure.

Stuck in crappy FBO’s? Yup. Slept in the plane because an ooops resulted being in a place without taxis or crew cars? That too.

On a $120k of today’s budget? Puleeez.

I should have had FIKI. I wonder how many lives I used up. Better yet, I should not have flown in environments that required FIKI.

And thinking about it with the few hours that I had? Not my most prudent moments.

A turbine would have been great. No budget for it.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Once I worked for the #1 stock of the decade for a while. I covered from blue bell to chicago, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Ohio, Indiana, Minneapolis and everything in between. I chose to fly for work when I could.

Along the way I upgraded to a turbo mooney, not FIKI.

I flew it everywhere.

Did I panic once or twice because freezing rain began to build? You bet.
Did I end up landing on runways covered in snow? Yuup.
“Braking action: poor” on ATIS?
Absolutely. That sucked. Weather so bad the airliners were grounded but somehow I didn’t get the memo, and my head left a few dents on the fuselage? Sure.

Stuck in crappy FBO’s? Yup. Slept in the plane because an ooops resulted being in a place without taxis or crew cars? That too.

On a $120k of today’s budget? Puleeez.

I should have had FIKI. I wonder how many lives I used up. Better yet, I should not have flown in environments that required FIKI.

And thinking about it with the few hours that I had? Not my most prudent moments.

A turbine would have been great. No budget for it.

You lived to tell the tale though but it sure doesn’t sound like the dream lol.

 

[3393RP]

I was thinking the same thing ... Almost seems like too many of these.

I'm thinking there's usually someone that pronounces a post is a troll with scant evidence. Do you think someone would go through composing a well written earnest request for specific information just to see who responds with what? Really?

 

[FORANE]

even if I can only fly the trip 5 or 6 times a year, it's worth it.

That right there makes the difference in your (and the OP of this thread to a slightly lesser degree) desired flights being reasonable for a lower time pilot to consider.

For both SnL and the OP, whatever you decide to buy (if you do buy), I'd make damn sure it had an autopilot because trips of that length hand flying (especially something with a yoke instead of a stick) would get old quick (at least for me).

 

[Pinecone]

Get a Piper Arrow.
Fits the mission. It can haul you, your wife, 2 small kids.
Burns less than your target gph and fits the budget.
It can get you 400nm in a reasonable amount of time since you're cruising 135 TAS. Headwinds can suck, but that's life.
It's a more liquid airplane too, in the sense that there's a pretty big resale market for it for when you go back to upgrade. Plus, if you know you're going to be upgrading to a 6+ seater for business later, might as well get your complex hours now in a cheaper make/model.
Only caveat: don't recall a geography mentioned.. If you're flying up in the mountains or something you might want something that has a turbo.

Mooneys are faster but you'll give up useful load. Not a big deal if you're planning already to fly 90% solo. You'll shave some time off your trip if you go that route. Many can be had for a fair price around your range.

Hmmm, my Mooney has a 1190 pound useful load.

And cruises at 175 knots. It is a turbo.

If you want to make sure you can go, you will need a FIKI (Flight Into Known Icing) equipped aircraft. A few Mooneys have TKS.

 

[Nick Geber]

Cherokee 235, mines 130 knots, 5.5 hour range, 1345# useful load, auto pilot……..sounds like I’m repeating myself.

Yes, Cherokee 235 or Dakota would fit the bill. Just heads up tho. It will be difficult to get insurance on a retractable for a very low time pilot. Get some hours, an instrument rating and then move up to something else

 

[Nick Geber]

My primary trainer is a Piper 140. Also have access to a Cessna 172, Piper Commanche 250, and Piper Archer II at my local airport without having to join a club or rent something special. My plan is to go to a larger airport/rental club, spend a week and fly all of the aircraft (with my CFI) to make a determination before I buy a plane. I would generally get my PPL in my 140 and then get my endorsements and further training in my owned aircraft. I dont have the plan or expectation to fly in my aircraft without my PPL for the first month or 2. I would simply pay him to fly with me and get him a hotel as necessary until I felt proficient with my aircraft. He has already said this is something he looks forward to.

My CPA thinks its a great idea. I put the plane on my balance sheet and am able to utilize accelerated deprecation as opposed to straight line deprecation. All of my flights, insurance, hanger expense, PPL training, etc, are direct expenses of the business (as someone mentioned, figure a 40% discount). The plane is a direct asset of the business (Georgia Aviation LLC for tax purposes) which ties directly into business usage for an IRS stress test. Same thing as I decide to upgrade in the future (withstanding a significant change in current tax law by future administrations)



Generally speaking, yes, I dont have or expect to have those issues. Yes, my business is stressful, but as mentioned before, I generally drive to locations. So I am not working on other aspects on the way to the business. I am focused on the drive itself. Most of my flights (90% currently) are 2-3 hour flights. I get up at 0430 every day anyway, so not a huge deal there. If I decide I dont want to fly home or to the next location, I generally have a condo/hotel in the city for me to stay at. As mentioned above, simply jumping in a vehicle and driving is always an option. I am actually flying with my CFI tomorrow morning for a business trip to get an idea for things. I was planning on driving but at the last minute asked him if he wanted to hop in a plane and fly there. I told him I would have a driver at the airport waiting so he and the driver could grab a late breakfast or early lunch during my meeting. Plus, it gives me more practice with patterns and take off and landings in a relatively unfamiliar airport.



Thank you for this information, I didint even consider joining clubs while owning a plane. However your point of view makes sense to me. As mentioned above, I plan to fly all of the aircraft on my short list before actually pulling the trigger. And then after that, I still plan to have my CFI fly with me until I feel "proficient" in my aircraft. I will also probably have him fly with me on almost all of my "first times" at a major/busy airport until I feel comfortable with them. I will do some research on joining various clubs to see what is available in my target markets.

Bonus depreciation is sunsetting. It’s 80% for 2023 and 60% for 2024

 

[Pinecone]

Yes, Cherokee 235 or Dakota would fit the bill. Just heads up tho. It will be difficult EXPENSIVE to get insurance on a retractable for a very low time pilot. Get some hours, an instrument rating and then move up to something else

FTFY

 

[Sayajin]

Yes, Cherokee 235 or Dakota would fit the bill. Just heads up tho. It will be difficult to get insurance on a retractable for a very low time pilot. Get some hours, an instrument rating and then move up to something else

Thanks for the heads up. While I absolutely expect insurance to be significantly more on a retract, its not something that would be cost prohibitive for me. I will have to look into the 235/Dakota as I have not done a lot of research on them. More on the Commanche 250.

Bonus depreciation is sunsetting. It’s 80% for 2023 and 60% for 2024

Understood. No worries there for me, once bonus depreciation goes away, I will simply put it on a standard fixed depreciation schedule along with the rest of FFE`s.

 

[masloki]

I love the what plane should I buy threads - that all artfully dodge the fact that OpEx dwarves CapEx. Sure, I lie to myself that fuel at $5 means I’m paying $45 per flight hour, add $5 for oil changes and what not. Oh yeah, add a new prop or some other FAA blessed maintenance item that staggers the mind - engines cost $50K for overhauls, perfectly sensible.

My advice - don’t buy a 120k plane. They represent significant compromises especially if you are ruling out a 430W. Double it - get something well equipped and well maintained and maybe, possibly, your OpEx will have less $5K surprises.

 

[Ed Haywood]

OpEx dwarves CapEx.

Splain please.

 

[Sayajin]

I love the what plane should I buy threads - that all artfully dodge the fact that OpEx dwarves CapEx. Sure, I lie to myself that fuel at $5 means I’m paying $45 per flight hour, add $5 for oil changes and what not. Oh yeah, add a new prop or some other FAA blessed maintenance item that staggers the mind - engines cost $50K for overhauls, perfectly sensible.

My advice - don’t buy a 120k plane. They represent significant compromises especially if you are ruling out a 430W. Double it - get something well equipped and well maintained and maybe, possibly, your OpEx will have less $5K surprises.

While I can understand your point of view, I think my goals vary from what you are outlining. As I mentioned in a prior post, the reason for the $120k for me is not based upon a maximum capital expenditure amount. Its based upon the fact that I am looking to purchase my first plane with limited flight hours and experience and plan to fly it myself. This particular budget allows me to limit myself to planes that will remove "some" of the "I think I can make it!" aspect. I know myself well enough to know that if I buy a $500k plane with auto pilot, FIKI, twin turbo prop, etc, I will choose to make flying decisions that are not necessarily in line with my level of experience and what I SHOULD be doing. To me its the same thing as a race car. I used to race Porsches for PCA and NASA. I didint start out with my 800WHP 911 Turbo. I started out with a Porsche 944 to learn how to properly drive, take apexs, manage grip and momentum, etc. I knew at the end of the day I wasn't going to be happy with the HP of a 944, but it forced me to learn the basics that I was then able to apply in a real race car. To me, this starter plane is the same basic concept. Something that allows me to complete my mission, but makes it harder (albeit it not impossible) to make flying decisions because "my plane can handle it" as opposed to "I can handle it".

With that said, I of course understand the fact that older planes require more ongoing operating expenses and Maintenace than a brand new Cirrius SR22 would. That is a normal tradeoff that any business person worth their salt calculates as part of the equation. Its not only about what you can buy a piece of real estate for. You also factor in what it takes you to then make that piece of real estate retail ready in addition to the operating costs, insurance costs, property taxes, losses due to crime and theft, etc. Its generally a mathematical calculation.

When I feel the time is right, I will upgrade to a much newer and nicer plane as outlined in my original post. However based upon the research I have done and people I have talked to, $120k should allow me to accomplish my mission and also gain more experience and flight time in "as reasonable as possible" circumstances. I tried to politely say in a roundabout way in several of my posts that I am not concerned about variable costs as well as normal reconditioning and upkeep costs. I said I didn't care about insurance costs, I didn't care about hanger costs, etc. Of course I don`t want to drop $50k on a rebuild on a $120k plane, but I am also not going to lose sleep over it god forbid I need to. Similar to buying a decent used vehicle, you hope that will proper maintenance records and low mileage, your odds of having a major mechanical failure are less. But of course, things happen. Notice I also specifically did not ask "what is the best bang for buck". I wanted to know within the criteria I have outlined for myself, what best would meet as many mission criteria as possible.

I am not buying a plane as a tax write-off, depreciation plot, etc. I am buying a plane that will allow me to visit my locations as much as reasonably possible but still get home more often than I could driving to my 2 young daughters and wife. That also is within what I feel the realm of reasonableness for a new pilot is.

 

[masloki]

Splain please.

CapEx - you can sell the plane for nearly the same price as acquisition, less whatever engine reserve is burned down for your hours used.

Depending on your luck, and insurance on low hours pilot on vaguely maintained complex, your OpEx will match your CapEx of 120k in ~5 years.

 

[Pinecone]

The point is, the purchase price is a same part of the cost. Driving everything just based on purchase price may lead to bad things.

You are saying that you do not have the mental strength to make flying decisions based on all factors. That is NOT a good way to start on a path in aviation.

 

[masloki]

To summarize, a useful plane for your mission, something that can get you into trouble if you aren’t careful, but not too much trouble until you are ready to trade it in. OpEx isn’t really relevant outside of some narrowing of costs. So, perhaps the question is what is the best plane if the ultimate plane is likely to be a King Air a la Eggman or Seneca a la Doc B up thread (both people fly in furtherance of work but aren’t compensated to fly). I’d still spend some more CapEx as I think 120k is in range of older, tired even if well maintained planes. Mooney M20J - 1980’s edition (if you want to look cool) or Cessna 182 down-n-welded (if you want to look uncool).

 

[3393RP]

You are saying that you do not have the mental strength to make flying decisions based on all factors. That is NOT a good way to start on a path in aviation.

I think he's exhibiting some well founded caution and respect for flying.

The current 13 page thread in the mishaps section greatly informs on this subject.