first night cross country as student pilot

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classicrock

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I went on my first night flight cross country as a student pilot this weekend.


Tomball Tx(KDWH)to College Station TX(KCLL)and back
Entering the cockpit with my flight instructor, I learned that the instruments would not be illuminated throughout the entire flight. This caused ALOT of concern to me since if I cant view any of the instruments(how will I know my altitude/airspeed/heading. Nevertheless, we cranked the engine, and proceeded. We returned about 2 hours later, finishing the cross country and I STILL wonder how other pilots can see the instruments.


The Easterwood airport was difficult to find from the air(nevermind the blinking lights that identify airports. Their runways and taxiways at KCLL were poorly lit/marked, making taxiways difficult(virtually impossible to see on the ground). ATC provided some navigation help on the ground(yes we had a airport map)
Same issue returning to David Hooks. ATC provided a lot of help finding the runway from the air


I wonder: did the plane(Cessna 172K) we flew have no interior lighting for each of the instrument?
Do all pilots flying VFR cross country at night fly this way(barely able to view instruments).
Do other VFR pilots have this much trouble locating the airports at night?
(While I consider my instructor very able, I do wish they had prepped me better for this trip in reference to the lighting conditions in the cockpit)

Comments?
 
Many older GA planes have no lights in the instruments at all. The light is the dome light period or with some sort of lens that shines the majority of the light output on the panel. Newer and retrofitted planes have illuminated instruments.

Trouble finding airports? Practice. The green/white rotating beacon is a great aid but scanning for that slowly rotating beacon keeps your eyes on one spot for a long time - waiting for the beacon to turn to get the next flash. Not perfect but it is a big help versus nothing.

Like everything else you are learning it is "practice, practice, practice".

-Skip
 
You want DIM lighting for night vision. But you don't want it entirely absent. Get a head-mounted flashlight, preferably single-color and not very bright.

Most 172s I've seen have panel lighting with little aimable instrument lights all over the panel. They generally also have a panel flood. Both the controls are near the bottom center of the instrument panel, above the trim wheel.

Every airport in the city has dim lighting -- in fact, a way to find the airport is to look for a dark spot. KRHV even has an entry in the A/FD telling people not to line up on the much brighter city street right next to it.

The moon is real dark right now. I think your instructor might have done better to take you up on a clear bright moonlit night. You can almost read a book by moonlight with appropriately dark adapted eyes.

Focusing on a single spot at night is not recommended. It can cause disorientation.
 
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classicrock said:
This caused ALOT of concern to me since if I cant view any of the instruments(how will I know my altitude/airspeed/heading.
Click to expand...

That SHOULD cause you a lot of concern. There should be enough instrument lights or panel lights to see the basic 6 pack at all times. Talk about flying blind!

classicrock said:
Do all pilots flying VFR cross country at night fly this way(barely able to view instruments).
Click to expand...

I fly at night a lot and my answer...no! I can see all my primary instruments but do need a red flashlight to see some of the ones off to the side...but I can fly the plane without a flashlight. At minimum get a head worn red light as mentioned.

If S!#T starts hitting the fan at night, last thing you wanna be worried about is holding a flashlight in an emergency!


classicrock said:
Do other VFR pilots have this much trouble locating the airports at night?
Click to expand...

This can be quite common and difficult as it is harder to see the giant swath of open land at night. Beacon and runway light are all ya got and it can be very difficult to spot a runway at night. Just a while back I was flying into the LA Basin into KFUL from a direction I do not usually approach. Just a sea of light in an endless city. Slow night so KFUL tower cleared me to land #1 a ways out for straight in. A few minutes later I get:

Tower: "Skylane XYZ, do you have the field in sight?"

Me: "Errrr...got the beacon, still trying to make out the runway"

Tower: "Turn right 20 degrees, I will turn the flashers up to full"

Me: "Got it, thanks!"

I was as wee bit off.

This is where tools like Foreflight runway center line features come in to handy with unfamiliar fields! (that was a lesson not to forget THAT feature!)

Long story short, no harm in asking or relying on ATC for help with vectors when looking for a runway day or night...do it all the time VFR.
 
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classicrock said:
I went on my first night flight cross country as a student pilot this weekend.


Tomball Tx(KDWH)to College Station TX(KCLL)and back
Entering the cockpit with my flight instructor, I learned that the instruments would not be illuminated throughout the entire flight. This caused ALOT of concern to me since if I cant view any of the instruments(how will I know my altitude/airspeed/heading. Nevertheless, we cranked the engine, and proceeded. We returned about 2 hours later, finishing the cross country and I STILL wonder how other pilots can see the instruments.


The Easterwood airport was difficult to find from the air(nevermind the blinking lights that identify airports. Their runways and taxiways at KCLL were poorly lit/marked, making taxiways difficult(virtually impossible to see on the ground). ATC provided some navigation help on the ground(yes we had a airport map)
Same issue returning to David Hooks. ATC provided a lot of help finding the runway from the air


I wonder: did the plane(Cessna 172K) we flew have no interior lighting for each of the instrument?
Do all pilots flying VFR cross country at night fly this way(barely able to view instruments).
Do other VFR pilots have this much trouble locating the airports at night?
(While I consider my instructor very able, I do wish they had prepped me better for this trip in reference to the lighting conditions in the cockpit)

Comments?
Click to expand...


But was it AWESOME is the question....
 
My 172N has the pathetic dome light to illuminate the panel. I suspect it is the same as the 172K. However, it is still adequate to see the instruments with the rheostat turned up full. There must be a problem with that plane that should be addressed before being used for night flights.
 
I wouldn't START a flight with no panel lights, but I have had panel lighting die in flight at night. You need to be ready for that. Multiple flashlights are mandatory.

In my case, I was 1400 feet over the Bay, leaving Oakland with SFO Class B 100 feet above me, when the panel lighting just shut off. You can bet that flashlight came out in a hurry. These days, I keep one strapped to my head at night. And a total of four within arms reach. One of which is a hand-crank. Remember, the aviation definition for a flashlight is a container for dead batteries.
 
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Just fly an approach into the aiport makes it a lot eaisier to find the airport and see the runway.
 
I break down night flying into 3 parts. First lesson we do VOR tracking and I just have them spot airports by the beacon, different lighting patterns, and basic night familiarization and tell me how they would enter the pattern. We don't do any landings. Second flight we'll work on landings and make short hops to different airports and see how they spot the airports and enter the correct pattern. For example, we'll go FRG-BDR-HVN-HWV-ISP-FRG. I'll usually throw in a few n landing light landings and an emergency on this flight. Third flight, if necessary, will be more night practice either just staying in the pattern at the home field or going to ISP or BDR which is quick flight. Fourth and final flight is the cross country. First flight is night familiarization, second is landings, third is cross country. As for the ground portion, really know what kind of the lighting the airport has. Does it have MIRL, HIRL, LIRL, REIL, PAPI, VASI, etc. This is a big one in helping you spot the airport and the correct runway. Also make it a habit to know where on the field the rotating beacon is if it has one. This can help you visualize where the runway is in relation to the beacon and help you enter the correct pattern.
 
Our airplane just has the rheostat overhead light, but it does a fair job, once you get used to it. I still have a couple of flashlights in the airplane. I have considered getting the red head-mounted light, but haven't yet. If I flew much at night, I would invest in one. It sounds like something was wrong with the 172 you flew. Some of the Cessna's have an AD on the rheostat.
 
MAKG1 said:
The moon is real dark right now. I think your instructor might have done better to take you up on a clear bright moonlit night. You can almost read a book by moonlight with appropriately dark adapted eyes.
Click to expand...

I disagree. My night XC was Reno to Lovelock, NV... An uncontrolled field with no taxiway lights either as it just has a ramp with no real taxiway. January night, no moon, no horizon, overcast, no lights on the ground except for the runway and 4 or 5 cars on a highway a few miles away. Talk about a black hole... Middle of Nevada. It is as close as most GA pilots will ever come to a night carrier landing... Except there are mountains all over the place.

I learned that 3 hours is nowhere near enough training to fly at night out here.

Night over the Bay Area is a world apart.
 
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DesertNomad said:
I disagree. My night XC was Reno to Lovelock, NV... An uncontrolled field with no taxiway lights either as it just has a ramp with no real taxiway. January night, no moon, no horizon, overcast, no lights on the ground except for the runway and 4 or 5 cars on a highway a few miles away. Talk about a black hole... Middle of Nevada.

I learned that 3 hours is nowhere near enough training to fly at night out here.

Night over the Bay Area is a world apart.
Click to expand...

I don't just hang out over the Bay. I work at an observatory and live far into the woods.

A bright moon would have made all the difference. City lights are a distraction, and it's considerably easier to fly at night with only dim lighting. Not no lighting at all.

You still can't see the horizon with a bright moon, but you very definitely can see unlit terrain.

Even with city lights, the bay is a black hole. Kinda the worst of both worlds, as the damn airport lighting is blinding, especially the REILs.
 
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I would encourage you to find a CFI familiar with the area and fly at night to Lovelock or Austin (Nevada). Seeing zero lights on the ground and zero stars is quite scary... Esp when there is no moon to see the terrain as well. Out here you usually see the horizon with a full moon as the desert reflects a lot of light. The dry lakes show with a lot less moon as they are very white and reflect the moonlight well.

What is "far out into the woods"? How far from town are you there?

From Austin, the nearest light on the ground is likely to be Fallon which is about 70nm to the west. Eureka is a bit closer in the other direction (55nm) but only has a population of a few hundred people... making it the biggest town in the county. Austin has a population of 192 but is up in the mountains above the airport (the town is at 6605') so you can't see it from pattern altitude (6530') as it is above you.
 
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My 1966 C172G had post lights and flood lights. Your 172K is newer. It has lights. If your instructor didn't let you turn them on, ask him why. That's BS if he did that.

KCLL has lighted taxiways but the tower closes at a certain time 0300Z and the lights become pilot controlled - 3 or 5 or 7 clicks on CTAF to enable. This is an important and common thing at uncontrolled fields at night and your instructor should have taught you that. Airports are cake to find at night when you turn the runway lights on high (and if you know how to spot the green-white flashes).

He should have shown you how to adjust cabin lighting to see instruments while preserving night vision. He should have advised you about always having a flashlight (or red headlamp) at night. He should have reviewed the A/FD entry for KCLL and Hooks with you preflight. Maybe he did some of this.

Sounds like he's being too macho but :dunno:
 
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I had panel lights on the 172 I did night training in. One thing that took me by surprise was that I turned on the runway lights from 10 miles out, then re-activated them when I got close. I then landed at Lovelock (see above). After back taxiing (no other option there) and setting up the radios for the return, I was ready to go.

At about 45-50kts during takeoff, the runway lights went dark.

Don't forget to reactivate them right before your takeoff roll. Good thing the landing light was working.
 
DesertNomad said:
I had panel lights on the 172 I did night training in. One thing that took me by surprise was that I turned on the runway lights from 10 miles out, then re-activated them when I got close. I then landed at Lovelock (see above). After back taxiing (no other option there) and setting up the radios for the return, I was ready to go.

At about 45-50kts during takeoff, the runway lights went dark.

Don't forget to reactivate them right before your takeoff roll. Good thing the landing light was working.
Click to expand...

That's a real good practical tip right there. Could save a guy a set of britches. :yes:
 
I got one of these a couple months ago for something other than flying. But I'm taking it out tonight for a workout in the plane for the first time.

http://www.princetontec.com/quad-tactical

The big advantage with this one is the red filter slides up and down. You don't have to go through any specific button presses to turn on the red or white LEDs. If you want red, you slide the filter up. If you want white, you slide the filter down. The button cycles through low, med, high, flash, off. Red, blue, and green filters are included. Can't remember what I paid, but it was below list on Amazon - but more than $18.
 
DesertNomad said:
I disagree. My night XC was Reno to Lovelock, NV... An uncontrolled field with no taxiway lights either as it just has a ramp with no real taxiway. January night, no moon, no horizon, overcast, no lights on the ground except for the runway and 4 or 5 cars on a highway a few miles away. Talk about a black hole... Middle of Nevada. It is as close as most GA pilots will ever come to a night carrier landing... Except there are mountains all over the place.

I learned that 3 hours is nowhere near enough training to fly at night out here.

Night over the Bay Area is a world apart.
Click to expand...


+1. Night flying out here in the desert on a clear full-moon night is like daytime. Student learns zip about night flying. I prefer to take my students out on moonless nights...but especially on the first flight we transition from dusk to dark to let the student's eyes adjust gradually to the total darkness and to shift their eyes to the gauges when needed.
 
classicrock said:
Tomball Tx(KDWH)to College Station TX(KCLL)and back
Click to expand...

Nice! My first student night x-c was IWS-CLL

classicrock said:
Entering the cockpit with my flight instructor, I learned that the instruments would not be illuminated throughout the entire flight. This caused ALOT of concern to me since if I cant view any of the instruments(how will I know my altitude/airspeed/heading. Nevertheless, we cranked the engine, and proceeded. We returned about 2 hours later, finishing the cross country and I STILL wonder how other pilots can see the instruments.
Click to expand...

In my aircraft, the lights are dim. I turn down the avionics and crank up the overhead. I also carry a backup handheld red flashlight and a backup red headband light. The only thing I can't see with the overhead is the magnetic compass, fortunately, so I just shine it every once in a while with the handheld.

classicrock said:
The Easterwood airport was difficult to find from the air(nevermind the blinking lights that identify airports. Their runways and taxiways at KCLL were poorly lit/marked, making taxiways difficult(virtually impossible to see on the ground). ATC provided some navigation help on the ground(yes we had a airport map)
Click to expand...

No kidding. It hides in the city (and masks as a stadium) pretty darn well. I almost caused an incursion by taxiing on to the crossing runway my first time. Fortunately (due to some unfortunate series of events prior to landing -- there was a lot of adrenaline rushing at that time), the controller took pity, noticed, and cleared me right before I crossed the line! I'll tell you this, though... that won't happen again!

classicrock said:
Same issue returning to David Hooks. ATC provided a lot of help finding the runway from the air
Click to expand...

I find DWH fairly easy to find from the air. Their beacon is pretty bright!

classicrock said:
I wonder: did the plane(Cessna 172K) we flew have no interior lighting for each of the instrument?
Do all pilots flying VFR cross country at night fly this way(barely able to view instruments).
Click to expand...

Night lighting often sucks, but you should be able to at least dimly see them. Too bright and you wouldn't be able to see outside the airplane!

classicrock said:
Do other VFR pilots have this much trouble locating the airports at night?
(While I consider my instructor very able, I do wish they had prepped me better for this trip in reference to the lighting conditions in the cockpit)
Click to expand...

It's an acquired skill, just like finding airports at all. Just takes some practice!
 
ettsn,

re:If you use Foreflight, turn on Extended Runway Centerlines in the options. This will help a LOT in finding and orienting to an airport.

Buy a headlamp like this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ilpage_o08_s01

I have this exact one, and it's very good. Bright and dim red light for cockpit use, bright and dim white light for tying down, unloading and whatever. Easily one of the best $18 you'll spend on flying."

I appreciate that. I had been internet shopping for this last night. thanks for the headsup
 
Petrolero

s-h-e did all that. had the airport diagram on her ipad on her lap right next to me.

I already knew to click 5x.

she actually brought a small flashlight that helped-particularly when we had to adjust gyroscope precession a couple of times. but viewing the gyroscope was very difficult..it was just too dim. she(my instructor) has the "eyes of a hawk: but Sunday we were both having difficulty sighting the flishing lights of the airport with all the other city lights

no question: I definitely getting a headmounted flashlight with the red light
 
We have a 172F in our flying club that has no instrument lights at all (except for the VOR heads, gee thanks). We have map lights and overhead lights that work intermittently. When training we had a night flight scheduled in that plane and I flat out refused and cancelled the lesson.

Night flying has a different risk profile and being able to view your instruments is absolutely essential. If there's even a question about panel lighting and I don't have an adequate solution, I scrub the flight. But, I'm also a chicken sh*t pilot.
 
Watch out for excessively bright flashlights. They are counterproductive.

And I've had a hell of a time finding dim flashlights.
 
Is college station's airport in the city? My student cross country was to a small town airport, but it was very close to the city lights, and it was hard for me to see. When airports are outside of town, you can see the runway easily when it's lit. I fly to Marrietta to see my daughter at college, and at night the airport blends right in with all the background lights. Thank goodness for GPS.
 
rbridges said:
Is college station's airport in the city? My student cross country was to a small town airport, but it was very close to the city lights, and it was hard for me to see. When airports are outside of town, you can see the runway easily when it's lit. I fly to Marrietta to see my daughter at college, and at night the airport blends right in with all the background lights. Thank goodness for GPS.
Click to expand...

Learn to spot the beacon. You can spot them WAY off, even in the city. GPS or no GPS.

Just don't stare at it.
 
MAKG1 said:
Learn to spot the beacon. You can spot them WAY off, even in the city. GPS or no GPS.
Click to expand...


Sometimes...I trained at KLAL and the beacon was so bad it was dang near impossible to distinguish the beacon from a green traffic light. I would usually spot the runway lights BEFORE the beacon...and I am not exaggerating!

At my home field of KWVI however they recently installed a new beacon. Anyone that misses that sucker at night would need to have their eyes examined!
 
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classicrock said:
I went on my first night flight cross country as a student pilot this weekend.

The Easterwood airport was difficult to find from the air(nevermind the blinking lights that identify airports. Their runways and taxiways at KCLL were poorly lit/marked, making taxiways difficult(virtually impossible to see on the ground). ATC provided some navigation help on the ground(yes we had a airport map)

Do other VFR pilots have this much trouble locating the airports at night?
(While I consider my instructor very able, I do wish they had prepped me better for this trip in reference to the lighting conditions in the cockpit)
Click to expand...

No. Other pilots use PCL and click to max **OR** ask approach to max out the lights. I GUARANTEE you can probably BARELY handle landing with full illumination. I requested it once and the runway was BLINDING. OTOH, my last SWA flight as a pax the airport was on dim and the pilot aligned with the REILs for Biggs Field rather than KELP and we got a nice tour of the city on the go-around ...:eek:

Get a couple of cap lights from Bass Pro Shop or Academy, they're cheaper than Sporty's.

rbridges said:
Is college station's airport in the city?
Click to expand...

No, its about the size of Mayberry ... lights were probably on dim.
 
DesertNomad said:
I disagree. My night XC was Reno to Lovelock, NV... An uncontrolled field with no taxiway lights either as it just has a ramp with no real taxiway. January night, no moon, no horizon, overcast, no lights on the ground except for the runway and 4 or 5 cars on a highway a few miles away. Talk about a black hole... Middle of Nevada. It is as close as most GA pilots will ever come to a night carrier landing... Except there are mountains all over the place.

I learned that 3 hours is nowhere near enough training to fly at night out here.

Night over the Bay Area is a world apart.
Click to expand...

My home airport is definitely like Lovelock, big black hole. On my second or third night flight my instructor said I need to be able to land at night with no landing lights, (no moon either) it got real interesting when he turn off the panel lights. I had two flash lights but did not use them because I knew he wanted to see how I handled it. It is soooo much easier to land with lights!!!!!
Got signed off for solo night flight.........
 
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Welcome to wonderful world of GA quality rental airplanes! Of course your 172 had panel lights. They probably don't work anymore because of the normalization of deviance that is common in all GA FBOs and flight schools. Why should they waste their money on lights when they can save maintenance bucks and you'll still rent from them?

Get a couple of these and you'll be fine.
 
No, it's not all FBOs.

It helps A LOT if the FBO does maintenance and repairs in house.

The current club I'm in keeps upgrading panels. Virtually everything has a GTN 650 now. And the rental prices are the lowest in the area, still. Not sure how they do it. Any retract for $125 wet is a steal.

If they have to pay ridiculous fees, the stuff not needed for day VFR is the first to get deferred.
 
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1RTK1 said:
Got signed off for solo night flight.........
Click to expand...

You have a unique CFI. No CFI that I know will sign a student off for night solo. Maybe it is the terrain out here and the black hole that fills nearly the entire state.

Be careful out there.
 
Have to also consider that since so few rentals are flown at night, not all bulbs will get squawked right away. Now that it's getting dark so early, that might change.
 
DesertNomad said:
You have a unique CFI. No CFI that I know will sign a student off for night solo. Maybe it is the terrain out here and the black hole that fills nearly the entire state.

Be careful out there.
Click to expand...
I got my instructor to sign me off, but it's flat here. I asked for it with dusk flights after work in mind, though.
 
Doesn't sound right.

VFR night flying over desolate areas are for all intents and purposes, IFR flying. You need to have had some training on flying by instruments alone, and you need to be able to see the those instruments. I can't tell you how many people who have killed themselves flying into the ground at night. Spatial disorientation and false visual cues is a very real threat.

I almost killed myself twice in those scenarios - one on a pitch-black go-around with nothing but mountains and desert around into Inyokern. As the airport lights went out beneath me on the upwind and I turned around into pitch black night I was very thankful I'd had some instrument training. If I hadn't, I would have been a smoking hole, for sure. No cues. The other time was the classic from Santa Barbara - takeoff out over the water at night. Your screen just goes black, you're low level and you need to turn 180 degrees.
 
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