first flight since incident

RoscoeT said:
It's not a 5/6 cylinder issue - it's that with a clogged injector, the fuel pump is delivering the same amount of fuel, but forced through 5 injector lines rather than 6. Makes the other 5 cylinders run way rich, hence the black smoke. This reduces power way beyond theoretically running normally on 5 cylinders.
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You're correct, I know better. D'oh. I was picturing a more modern injection system in my head for some reason when I made that comment. And I don't know why I didn't pick up on the black smoke either. One cylinder running super lean while the others are running normally wouldn't produce a bunch of black smoke.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I've watched someone else hand prop a cub from several hundred feet away, and it seemed dangerously loud. I think your hearing is already damaged.

It does not take sustained exposure to cause damage. Ask your favorite tympanist. Musicians deal with this problem all the time.

If you're going to "protect" your hearing with ANR, do it with ANR that actually works. An underengineered ANR might as well not be there, and it's a definite negative when it cuts out things you need.
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Proping a cub, taylorcraft, etc. is " dangerously loud?" Give me a break! I've flown a lot of tail wheel airplanes including 500hours in a Stearman with no ear plugs, headsets, etc. and hear very well after 55 years of flying. Get serious! I use dave clark 10-13s. They work perfectly.
 
dell30rb said:
... all it takes is one big chunk of something to plug that injector.
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Or a bunch of very little things, like the fine sand in the plugged-injectors power loss incident mentioned in another thread. I know it's rare, but it's terrifying to passengers, because it happens, and it can get past the sharpest-eyed pilot.

His first reaction was to steer parallel to the power lines, but his more experienced friend realized they were going to make it over the power lines just fine and took the controls.
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This incident is terrifying to passengers because most of us are not "more experienced" or even "experienced" at all. This is not the kind of thing pinch hitting prepares you for.

It all simmers around in a passengers mind and makes a pretty big hurdle for optimism and confidence in fate and the pilot to keep everyone alive.

If a pilot appears to be practicing "resignation" when not flying, does that mean they're likely to engage in it when flying? I've had lots of pilots tell me they are quite different as PIC than they are in "normal life." As in, losing keys, missing things, forgetting things, freezing up, drawing a blank, etc. etc. But they insist it does not happen when they're preparing for flights or flying. I'm not really able to buy that.
 
Jaybird180 said:
This was not covered during my training (abort procedures)
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I'm not sure how to parse that sentence. Are you saying that the specific scenario was not covered during your abort-procedures training? Or are you saying that your training did not cover abort procedures?
 
How did the OP not feel something in the run up? I have zulus's and hear engine sounds just fine. Not sure what equipment he has but nothing was jumping out with CHT or EGT?

Always fly the plane, from start up to shut down, always have a no go point on the runway and stick to it.

At least this post reminds us of some of the simple things we learned while training that are important in every flight.
 
acrophile said:
I'm not sure how to parse that sentence. Are you saying that the specific scenario was not covered during your abort-procedures training? Or are you saying that your training did not cover abort procedures?
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The latter. I asked about it and was told that the runway way so short that having a 1/2 marker for abort may still not save me AND it's an advanced technique that I will learn in ME training.

Nether answer satisfied me, but I rolled the dice that I would never need that skill by that time. I was wrong.

That incident got me thinking about a lot of things I can do better. It was a learning experience.
 
thank you all for the responses.
first, the plane was in control at all times. after the wires, I relinquished control to my pilot rated pax. I was shaken, and was glad to have him there to take control for a few seconds. I never gave up.
second, the runup and even takeoff roll sounded normal, showed normal 25in, 2700 rpm, pressures normal, everything was normal.
third, there is a huge amount of trash in my fuel system. my mechanic, just today, was working on it again, and cleaned out trash from #s1,3,5 injector.
I am not going to give up flying, but I will take more lessons with a CFI, and train more. I went up today in the 172 with a CFI that I had never flown with, and we practiced aborted t/o. I know I have done them in the past, but seemed unfamiliar. we are going to go up again this weekend and do some more drills.
this incident made me realize that I was behind the airplane, but that can be fixed. more training, and fly more. it felt so good to be back in the air.
also, out of all the things that day, the landing was one that I would not change. I didn't mention it is a FG toga. sory for that. but I knew that we had the runway made, even a little high. and I didn't want to try a go around in those circumstances.
 
for what's its worth, I have senhausers. and do not wear them until after the avionics are on.
 
Have your CFI do some power off 180's with you. It will help your understanding of where the airplane can go with no power and what you can do about it. I know power off 180's aren't standard for private pilot training, but they should be.
 
trackersocha said:
....I am not going to give up flying, but I will take more lessons with a CFI, and train more. I went up today in the 172 with a CFI that I had never flown with, and we practiced aborted t/o. I know I have done them in the past, but seemed unfamiliar. we are going to go up again this weekend and do some more drills.

this incident made me realize that I was behind the airplane, but that can be fixed. more training, and fly more. it felt so good to be back in the air.
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Good to see you didn't quit flying. Get out there and follow the plan you have in place with the CFI and you will get to know your plane even better.

Happy to hear you got back in the saddle!
 
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
 
MAKG1 said:
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
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It was not standard in mine, just like mvfr flying and >15 kts.
 
MAKG1 said:
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
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It's a Commercial SEL checkride maneuver. I only remember doing one power off 180 in preparation for my private checkride and I didn't have to do one on the checkride.
 
mondtster said:
It's a Commercial SEL checkride maneuver. I only remember doing one power off 180 in preparation for my private checkride and I didn't have to do one on the checkride.
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I had to be reasonably proficient at them to solo.
 
I've been thinking about this thread a good bit today, because it hit home. Early in my primary training (in a glider) I had something unexpected happen....while in ground effect I ran out of energy before I expected, was still a few feet off the ground, took a nice hard/high bounce, and found myself a passenger. I froze. It's the only time I've ever heard "I have the controls", and it scared the hell out of me. It also proved to be an invaluable lesson to have learned when I did because I had someone there to save my bacon...if this had happened on my first or second solo there is a likely chance I would have had an incident.

Now, if I had listened to a few folks on this board, I should have hung it up and never flown again. Instead, we towed the glider down to the end, turned it around, and quickly launched again to get back in the air. If flying is a "license to learn" as so many like to say around here, then learn something about yourself, your skills, the way you react, etc. Take a self-assessment, and if you think you're safe then keep flying. In my short aviation career, I've learned that there are tons of these lessons to be learned.

My CFIG always kept saying "in an emergency you don't rise to the occasion, you fall back on your fundamental training" (or something to that effect). So, my suggestion is go get more training! Get more time in type, get someone to show/teach you the impossible turn, spins, tailwheel endorsement, more slow flight...whatever it takes!
 
FWIW - while I have never frozen, I have had the uncontrollable leg shakes happen to me after a scary takeoff....
 
PaulS said:
Seems like an awful lot of airplane for 110 tt, could that be part of it??
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I was thinking the same thing. A toga at 11hrs is a plot of plane.

I agree with turning away from the wires.
I'd be more ****ed that another novice pilot took control and usurped your PIC decision to get away from the wires and took you over the top. He should have been encouraging you and keeping eyes outside for other obstructions.

Get the plane fixed and get some more dual with a CFI in the toga. Also get some heavy weight flights even if your carrying bags of dog food in the back seats.
 
MAKG1 said:
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
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The power off 180 used to be called the standard approach. I was fortunate to be trained by WWII vets in the 70s. Vast majority of my pattern work during training was the power off 180 with full flaps on final. Threw in maybe 6 no flap landings. It still is my normal approach in just about everything I fly. I don't recall doing any of the modern stabilized approach. Don
 
I am happy to be back in the air, I know it is the right thing to do for me. one thing that I know now, is that there is much I do not know. when my DE signed me off, he said to practice and keep learning. I think that is exactly what I am doing.
is a saratoga too much for a 100 hr pilot, depends I guess. this very board, along with numerous others, proclaim that it is a bird that is well within a low time pilot's limits. I need more dual in this airplane. there is no doubt about that.
 
Henning said:
I had to be reasonably proficient at them to solo.
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So did I. I've done many dozens of these, in every type I've flown. I try to do a at least a few each month.

It's hard for me to imagine a successful emergency landing without that.

Though it's true that the regs come just a little short of requiring it, and the PTS has an out at the examiner's discretion (he can ask for a go-around).

As for a Saratoga being too much for a 100 hour pilot, complex aircraft make people nervous for good reason, but can the performance really be that much beyond a 182?

I don't see how the reported problem couldn't have happened in a 172.
 
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MAKG1 said:
So did I. I've done many dozens of these, in every type I've flown. I try to do a at least a few each month.

It's hard for me to imagine a successful emergency landing without that.

Though it's true that the regs come just a little short of requiring it, and the PTS has an out at the examiner's discretion (he can ask for a go-around).

As for a Saratoga being too much for a 100 hour pilot, complex aircraft make people nervous for good reason, but can the performance really be that much beyond a 182?

I don't see how the reported problem couldn't have happened in a 172.
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No, Saratoga is not "Too much airplane", it's an overgrown Arrow.
 
I had loss of power on takeoff on the first flight after annual and it shook me up a little. Power dropped from 2500rpm to 2000-2100 rpm at about 50-100ft agl. Pulled power, dumped flaps, landed and missed going off the end of the runway by a few feet. If it happened between 200 and 800 ft agl my only option would have been a highway if I cleared the trees.

The flight after that was a little nerve racking.
 
Seriously people...
Had a guy ball up his airplane on landing (he had 1500+ hrs at that point), we were fixing the bird up (replacing most of it, anyways) and he had to go for the 709 ride
Gave him my own airplane (same kind) and a CFI to go do a few take offs and go-arounds (his accident was a go-around that didn't go as planned) - CFI talked to me after the flight and said that he can't possibly sign the guy off for anything - he's all over the sky, nervous etc. I went flying with him - indeed, flying the pattern we somehow ended up about 7nm away from the airport (on a very, very wide downwind) with full flaps and ready to land. Explicitly told him that I'm not checking anything, not teaching him anything (I was a PP at the time with maybe 1/10th of his time), did a couple of landings, got out and told him to go fly it by himself for 45 mins or so. "Do you want me to do landings and go-arounds?" "Hell no, just go bore holes in the sky" - I told him to go and remember why he started flying to begin with.
As he's leaving the pattern, my phone rings. Insurance informs me that unfortunately they will not cover my airplane with this guy at the controls until a successful 709 ride. Ouch.
Forty minutes later, I see him enter the pattern, turn base, final.. and get cut off by a NORDO Cub flying a low pattern. Perfect go-around, comes back and does a nice and smooth landing. Passed his 709 a couple of days later. That was a few years ago, we are still friends and I'm happy to say he's still flying.
 
MAKG1 said:
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
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They weren't for me either. I did a couple when I got the 182RG but I never did them during private training. Loved doing them for commercial and CFI training though. So much fun!
 
Z06_Mir said:
They weren't for me either. I did a couple when I got the 182RG but I never did them during private training. Loved doing them for commercial and CFI training though. So much fun!
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I stand corrected. It's a bit of a surprise, though.

They are not particularly difficult, and the big lesson from it is that a 172 really likes to glide. You don't realize that until you do a "short" approach and cross the threshold at 500+ feet the first time (yup, pulled that trick on my checkride). Heck, I even have to take my time at KHWD with its 600 AGL TPA. It's also REAL important for a transition to a CS prop, as they don't glide nearly as well unless you pull the prop.
 
What was the elevation of the departure airport?
 
trackersocha said:
thank you all for the responses.
first, the plane was in control at all times. after the wires, I relinquished control to my pilot rated pax. I was shaken, and was glad to have him there to take control for a few seconds. I never gave up.
second, the runup and even takeoff roll sounded normal, showed normal 25in, 2700 rpm, pressures normal, everything was normal.
third, there is a huge amount of trash in my fuel system. my mechanic, just today, was working on it again, and cleaned out trash from #s1,3,5 injector.
I am not going to give up flying, but I will take more lessons with a CFI, and train more. I went up today in the 172 with a CFI that I had never flown with, and we practiced aborted t/o. I know I have done them in the past, but seemed unfamiliar. we are going to go up again this weekend and do some more drills.
this incident made me realize that I was behind the airplane, but that can be fixed. more training, and fly more. it felt so good to be back in the air.
also, out of all the things that day, the landing was one that I would not change. I didn't mention it is a FG toga. sory for that. but I knew that we had the runway made, even a little high. and I didn't want to try a go around in those circumstances.
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Getting more airtime with a CFI is a great idea. The statement "Fight like you train. Train like you fight." is entirely accurate. If you can react more automatically to emergencies, they will be less intimidating. 11 hours in a new plane does not seem like a lot. Neither does 30. Total time counts a bit as does different aircraft.
But training tops all.
Unless you are afraid to fly, dangerous flying, tired of flying, don't give it up. More time in the aircraft is the best solution.
As to headsets, I do not put them on until the engine is running. The ANRs I use do not mask the engine noise, even on start up but that's how I trained and that's what I do.
 
MAKG1 said:
Power off 180s aren't standard?

They are in every private pilot checkride I've heard of, including mine. And I did one in my flight review a few weeks ago.
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Can you point to the specific Area/Task for that in the PP-Airplane PTS? It's Area IV/Task L in the CP-A PTS, but I can't seem to find it in the PP-A PTS. And power-off approaches for "normal approach and landing" haven't been "standard" in the FAA's eyes in over 40 years.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Can you point to the specific Area/Task for that in the PP-Airplane PTS? It's Area IV/Task L in the CP-A PTS, but I can't seem to find it in the PP-A PTS. And power-off approaches for "normal approach and landing" haven't been "standard" in the FAA's eyes in over 40 years.
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Task X.B.6 approximates it, but the actual landing is optional.
 
Ron Levy said:
Can you point to the specific Area/Task for that in the PP-Airplane PTS? It's Area IV/Task L in the CP-A PTS, but I can't seem to find it in the PP-A PTS. And power-off approaches for "normal approach and landing" haven't been "standard" in the FAA's eyes in over 40 years.
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Ron, just out of curiosity why the change? I never understood why someone would want to complete their base to final turn over a mile from the threshold at 6-700 feet (like I've seen published in a 141 schools syllabus). With flaps out you have NO chance of making the runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ianovic said:
Ron, just out of curiosity why the change? I never understood why someone would want to complete their base to final turn over a mile from the threshold at 6-700 feet (like I've seen published in a 141 schools syllabus). With flaps out you have NO chance of making the runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's how you land a jet, the FAA training system is all about getting people ready to fly airliners.
 
1. I would not stop flying. 2. I would go back up in the same airplane the incident occurred in with a pilot familiar with this airplane, preferably a CFI. 3. I would probably not do airliner approaches in a Saratoga. I've never flown one BUT if they fly like a Cherokee six, they drop like a safe with no power. I would be proficient so that I could do as short a pattern as possible. If the Saratoga, for any reason craps out on a long final, your toast. ( an example are the two bonanzas at my airport. The low time owner makes a final miles long as he is obviously not assured. The other makes a pattern where he is never out of site, his landing is smoooooth, tires barely chirp. He's high time in type.) stick with it, build time, then you'll know for sure if you should continue.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Provocative question. I will keep it in mind to turn it off until reaching safe altitude; will help with problem detection.
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NOT true. ANR helps big-time with problem detection, because it gets rid of the LOUD RUMBLE noise that tells you nothing, and lets you hear much more subtle clues from the engine. You'll hear a little "tic" when a cylinder starts to run too lean, long before the engine actually gets rough, for example.

Right now, I'm flying with the built-in panel-powered Bose headsets. Because of that, they're off for engine start (though they're on my head so I'm getting some passive attenuation) and they come on with the avionics master.
 
trackersocha said:
(T)he runup and even takeoff roll sounded normal, showed normal 25in, 2700 rpm, pressures normal, everything was normal.
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dmspilot said:
What was the elevation of the departure airport?
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I asked if you were taking off from a high elevation airport, because if not, that is not normal. You should get 30" of manifold pressure during a sea level takeoff (i.e., manifold pressure equal to the ambient barometric pressure).
 
+1 on 30" greater during takeoff roll, 25" is what I would reduce power to after reaching a thousand feet or so.
 
Depends on the calibration of the MP gauge. What does it read with the engine off? Should be ambient barometric pressure at sea level, minus ~1" for every 1000 MSL.
 
azure said:
Depends on the calibration of the MP gauge. What does it read with the engine off? Should be ambient barometric pressure at sea level, minus ~1" for every 1000 MSL.
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It should be barometric pressure. It's a barometer.

You only subtract an inch per thousand if you substitute an altimeter setting. And 28-31 inches will be adequate for that. No need to dial up AWOS.
 
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