first flight since incident

[trackersocha]

some of you might remember me posting about my new( to me) saratoga. well, about a week ago that bird bit me hard.
a pilot rated passenger and I embarked on a short 15 min flight to look at another airplane. I have about 110 hrs tt and he has 400tt. about 11and 30 in type respectively.
we did the preflight, all was well, the runup, all was well, and then we were ready for takeoff. lined up with the runway, and full everything foreward, off we go. 45,50,55,60,70 rotate, immediately after wheels up, I knew something was wrong, we were making 85-90 kts and climbing at 100fpm. the biggest problem with this was the transmission lines that were a mile away from the departure end of the runway. the pilot-pass was content, and I was very concerned. I stated" we are not gonna make the wires". I immedeatly started a turn to parallel the lines, when he took over, and flew us over the lines. after we made it over the lines my right leg started shaking uncontrollably. I had quit flying for a few seconds. it scared the **** out of me. I regained my composure, and he discussed continuing the flight, I promptly stated that we were going around and to look for a place to land off airport.
we made the pattern, never getting over 100kts or 500 agl. we had to dodge a drilling rig on final, making our pattern very ugly. " where is that rig? look up!, it over there". on short final we were high, but the toga falls fast. he suggested going around, but I was treating this like a dead stick. over the numbers, pull all power, and the plane sunk. 1/4 down the 5000' runway he suggested flaps, I asked for full, he complied. halfway down we were wheels down and on the brakes.
when we pulled to the hangar and got the initial shock over with, the airport manager(a friend) called me to insure that we were ok. he had witnessed the t/o, and said we were pouring black smoke, he lost the airplane in the sky, but could see the smoke.
mechanic said plugged #6 injector.

tomorrow I will go up in my 172 with a pipeline pilot as a safety pilot for the first time since the incident. I am a touch nervous, but very ready to get in the air.

I have taken away from this, that I need some more time in the toga with a safety pilot or CFI. I also think, if I was paying attention to the bird, instead of being excited about flying with another pilot, I would have noticed an excessive ground roll, and shut down earlier, and not been airborne. also I never thought about flying under the wires, that might have been an option, but the turn still appeals to me. most of all, i think, is the need for more emergency training and practice.

 

[hook_dupin]

Good work. You'll get to know your airplane better as you fly it more. You'll instinctively know when the power isn't right on take-off.

I'm a fan of the 90-degree turn away if you think power line clearance is going to be an issue.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm glad you had just enough power to make the turns and return safely. 100 fpm doesn't feel like much but it's better than a negative number.

 

[Henning]

I had quit flying for a few seconds. it scared the **** out of me.

Sell the plane, quit flying, it's not for you. You got a warning that you don't have the correct reactions without it killing you, don't ignore it. Many people don't get that.

 

[ronnieh]

Might be just a touch harsh, Henning. However the OP's reaction does give one pause. Not a great reaction for sure.

 

[Henning]

Might be just a touch harsh, Henning. However the OP's reaction does give one pause. Not a great reaction for sure.

Blunt maybe, I don't consider it harsh. I'm not being derogatory on him as a person, just pointing out that his reaction type is not particularly suitable to aviation. You can never quit flying, never. Dissociative personalities die in aviation emergencies, AF447 pointed that out quite clearly.

 

[RV10flyer]

Glad you and your friend are okay.

Do you wear an ANR headset? Do you have EGT monitor? Do you have a fuel flow instrument?

 

[Jaybird180]

Glad you and your friend are okay.

Do you wear an ANR headset?Do you have EGT monitor? Do you have a fuel flow instrument?

Provocative question. I will keep it in mind to turn it off until reaching safe altitude; will help with problem detection.

 

[AdamZ]

First glad your Ok. Second, Did you really quit flying for a bit or did your Pilot Pax take control? There is a difference. Seems to me the decision to turn parallel to the power lines was a PIC decision and a reasonable one especially if you did not clear the power lines by much ( how much did you clear them by?)

Besides getting more time in the plane be sure to practice emergency procedures with a CFI regularly.

 

[poadeleted20]

Make it a CFI, not a safety pilot. You need to learn a lot more about operating this aircraft before you go solo again. I can't imagine that all engine indications and operations were normal and within proper operating parameters during run-up and the takeoff roll with a plugged injector.

 

[PaulS]

Blunt maybe, I don't consider it harsh. I'm not being derogatory on him as a person, just pointing out that his reaction type is not particularly suitable to aviation. You can never quit flying, never. Dissociative personalities die in aviation emergencies, AF447 pointed that out quite clearly.

Seems like an awful lot of airplane for 110 tt, could that be part of it??

 

[ronnieh]

Henning, I am not actually disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that first the OP chooses to participate in a hazardous activity. He is a PP and I know of no regulation that requires a pilot to not panic. Nothing in his training nor on the check ride either. It would appear he may be somewhat typical of many private pilots, especially low time ones.

The FAA has no concern if the private pilot kills himself. In fact even a non paying passenger hardly raises an eyebrow. The bar has been set very low in order to allow more people to participate in this "sport/hobby".

So my point is perhaps you are right that it may be in his best interest to quit flying. We all do many things that are not in our best interest. Life is not safe. Obviously certain activities can be avoided to make life safer. I for one am not willing to give up all activity to increase my safety to the N th degree.

So I do agree it might be in his best interest to quit flying due to his POSSIBLE propensity for panic. That is all I would point out. I would not make a declarative statement that he should quit but, it might be a choice it might want to consider. JMO

 

[Clark1961]

Provocative question. I will keep it in mind to turn it off until reaching safe altitude; will help with problem detection.

I hear the engine (and wind) better with ANR on. For example with ANR on I can hear the whistle of the turbocharger and without it I cannot.

 

[Henning]

Seems like an awful lot of airplane for 110 tt, could that be part of it??

Nope, it has to do with how a person reacts under stress, facing death.

 

[airguy]

I know the airport well where this occurred, the lines on the departure end definitely have your attention on initial climbout, and that drilling rig on the approach end is not just a little bit in the way - it's big-time in the way on short final. That rig should be finished with the hole and gone in about another week, not that it has much bearing on this particular incident.

Mike - there is no substitute for experience, I think you took a bit larger step than you were ready for when you bought the Saratoga. I wouldn't say to sell it, but I would get some CFI time. And with that thought, I think I would tell you at least one CFI in particular to NOT use in the local area, that might surprise you.

 

[acrophile]

I immedat[e]ly started a turn to parallel the lines, when he took over, and flew us over the lines. [A]fter we made it over the lines my right leg started shaking uncontrollably. I had quit flying for a few seconds.

How did the transfer of control come about? Did you ask him to take over, and then you stopped flying? Or did you stop flying, and then he noticed and took over?

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Trackersocha – Sounds like you had a Learning moment. We have all had them. I would suggest a lot more time with an instructor working on Two Things.
1. Getting to know your airplane.
2. Practice more “What If” emergency situations.

Every time I had a Learning Moment I would hear my Instructor in my head saying
FLY THE PLANE…FLY THE PLANE…

Try to say that to yourself the next time you have a Learning Moment!

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jaybird180]

I understand what Henning is (and has been) saying about panic. I wonder if the response can be trained of if some people innately freeze up. I know I get a feeling of time slowing down and things seem to take forever. Best part of that is I can think. I dont know if this is ingrained or not.

 

[frfly172]

Do you start the plane with your and headset on? Like to start the airplane without the headset so I can hear any difference in the sounds I'm hearing.

 

[MAKG1]

If you guys have ANR that so completely removes engine sounds that you can't hear something weird, that's not appropriate ANR. They should remove only the damaging (generally very low) frequencies.

Starting with your headset off? You're going to lose your hearing. Find a solution that doesn't require it. Like a passive headset. Weaker attenuation is FAR better than no attenuation.

 

[dell30rb]

Nope, it has to do with how a person reacts under stress, facing death.

If he had more experience he probably wouldn't have thought he was facing death.

I'm guessing this was an average GA runway (4000 feet?) and not high elevation. A Saratoga should perform adequately with two people and 5/6 cylinders.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Sell the plane, quit flying, it's not for you. You got a warning that you don't have the correct reactions without it killing you, don't ignore it. Many people don't get that.

Henning, I disagree with you. I do agree that one must always fly the airplane. But someone was sitting next to him with more experience than he had. That messes with your head a little "This guy knows what he's doing and I don't". I've heard it multiple times from my DPE that people he's been flying with will lose an engine and they'll scream "Your airplane!" even in a twin. Heck, if I was with the guy I might not say "Your airplane!" But I'd say "Now if it looks like I'm going to bone this up take it cause ya know one shot at it...." but when the guy has had 5 or 6 engine outs in singles and a midair, I trust him. So I understand that mentality. The OP needs more confidence in his abilities, not to throw in the towel. He's hardly got a hundred hours, he doesn't know what he doesn't know yet.

Seems like an awful lot of airplane for 110 tt, could that be part of it??

I disagree. At 80tt I went from a Pa-28-161 to a 182RG. Granted, not a 6 seater but a decently fast retract. Took 20 hours dual before I solod it, probably could have done it in 15 but insurance required 20. As a new pilot 11 hours in a brand new faster, heavier type doesn't seem like enough you gotta start somewhere.





Also, a good ANR headset won't make a difference to 'bad' sounds. I can hear everything in my Bose just fine.

 

[dell30rb]

Starting with your headset off? You're going to lose your hearing.

Are you one of those guys who starts up at 2000 rpm? A normal start is not loud. I usually start with my headset off. I like to be able to hear everything that is going on. I also want to be able to hear if someone responds after I stick my head out of the window and yell "clear"

 

[MAKG1]

Are you one of those guys who starts up at 2000 rpm? A normal start is not loud. I usually start with my headset off. I like to be able to hear everything that is going on. I also want to be able to hear if someone responds after I stick my head out of the window and yell "clear"

Yup, and if anything is wrong and it backfires you've got a problem.

Are you one of those guys who assumes nothing ever goes wrong? Isn't that what this thread is about in the first place?

I can hear a normal speaking voice over my ANR. If you can't, yours is too aggressive for safety. They are not safe if they cut out everything. Should be primarily low frequencies, and they should be carefully chosen.

 

[dell30rb]

I stated" we are not gonna make the wires". I immedeatly started a turn to parallel the lines, when he took over, and flew us over the lines. after we made it over the lines my right leg started shaking uncontrollably. I had quit flying for a few seconds. it scared the **** out of me.

It sounds like you had enough power to make it easily over the power lines, but not having the power you expected spooked you. Its okay to get stressed, i've had that sinking feeling in my stomach a few times when flying (who hasn't). You had an abnormal reaction to it, the FAA calls it "Resignation". Its a bad thing and will get you killed if you let it. If that ever happens again you need to recognize it consciously and stop it.

Really the best anecdote is more experience and training. And I mean training, like get a CFI to really drill you on maneuvers, stalls, landings. Truly mastering them in your new plane will give you confidence and more experience. If you are confident in your training and skills, you won't get spooked in the first place when something goes wrong.

 

[dell30rb]

Yup, and if anything is wrong and it backfires you've got a problem.

I'm just not seeing how starting an airplane with my headset off is going to ruin my hearing. Heck I hand prop the cub standing 3 feet from the exhaust stack and prop. It just does not seem loud to me. Now, I do realize that extended periods of sitting in the cockpit w no hearing protection, droning at 2500 RPM will eventually degrade your hearing.

 

[noobJohn]

This story makes me think about setting hard and fast limits for airspeed vs. distance travelled on the runway for takeoff. That likely would have saved a lot of stress. There's a rule of thumb somewhere.....

I say it makes me think about it, because I've never done it myself. I've been flying 172 type planes off 3000+ foot runways and the only time I've ever noticed a slow climbout was at gross in the summertime. I'm not sure the acceleration was paritcularly slow in that case, just the climb.

 

[Jaybird180]

This story makes me think about setting hard and fast limits for airspeed vs. distance travelled on the runway for takeoff. That likely would have saved a lot of stress. There's a rule of thumb somewhere.....

I say it makes me think about it, because I've never done it myself. I've been flying 172 type planes off 3000+ foot runways and the only time I've ever noticed a slow climbout was at gross in the summertime. I'm not sure the acceleration was paritcularly slow in that case, just the climb.

I once nearly ran off the runway in a 172 that wasn't producing spec power. I didn't know about it when I rented the plane. Takeoff roll was longer than usual, and it wasn't ready to fly at 55IAS and more.

I barely cleared the trees at the departure end of rwy36 and was on the stall horn at <200fpm until turning crosswind.

It was summer and we were about 140-ish under gross (IIRC - but I confess to not double checking my math on W&B)

Upon return, my CFI appeared perturbed that dispatch gave me that plane for my mission.

 

[Henning]

I once nearly ran off the runway in a 172 that wasn't producing spec power. I didn't know about it when I rented the plane. Takeoff roll was longer than usual, and it wasn't ready to fly at 55IAS and more.

I barely cleared the trees at the departure end of rwy36 and was on the stall horn at <200fpm until turning crosswind.

It was summer and we were about 140-ish under gross (IIRC - but I confess to not double checking my math on W&B)

Upon return, my CFI appeared perturbed that dispatch gave me that plane for my mission.

Why did you continue?

 

[MAKG1]

I'm just not seeing how starting an airplane with my headset off is going to ruin my hearing. Heck I hand prop the cub standing 3 feet from the exhaust stack and prop. It just does not seem loud to me. Now, I do realize that extended periods of sitting in the cockpit w no hearing protection, droning at 2500 RPM will eventually degrade your hearing.

I've watched someone else hand prop a cub from several hundred feet away, and it seemed dangerously loud. I think your hearing is already damaged.

It does not take sustained exposure to cause damage. Ask your favorite tympanist. Musicians deal with this problem all the time.

If you're going to "protect" your hearing with ANR, do it with ANR that actually works. An underengineered ANR might as well not be there, and it's a definite negative when it cuts out things you need.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why did you continue?

Brand new pilot on a 2420 ft runway. Stopping was not an option at that point.

I had no indication of subpar performance (based on my skill level) except that at 55 it didn't want to fly even with 10deg flaps, and I didn't know much about how to evaluate static rpm while on the brakes before initiating the roll.

This was not covered during my training (abort procedures)

 

[stratobee]

Little too much natural pilot chest thumping in this thread.

It takes a little while to get used to a new airplane, so it's understandable that you wouldn't instantly recognise it's not making full power. This is no reason for you to quit flying or quit the plane. Fix the plane, fly with someone until you feel comfortable, then build some more time in it alone. This is very important, as it forces you to rely on your own senses and decision making. I wouldn't even chose a CFI unless they're very experienced in the type. What's the value of having a CFI along who's done circuits in a 152 for the last 500hrs? Better to get a PPL who's experienced in type to come along.

 

[timwinters]

I immedeatly started a turn to parallel the lines, when he took over, and flew us over the lines. after we made it over the lines my right leg started shaking uncontrollably. I had to quit flying for a few seconds. it scared the **** out of me.

The OP hasn't chimed back in since his OP but...

during the initial reading of his post, I really thought he forgot the word "to" as I inserted in bold above. This "shaking" event seems to comes well after he had relinquished controls to his co-pilot.

 

[Skyscraper]

The OP hasn't chimed back in since his OP but...

during the initial reading of his post, I really thought he forgot the word "to" as I inserted in bold above. This "shaking" event seems to comes well after he had relinquished controls to his co-pilot.

That's how I read it as well. As in, the co-pilot took positive control and he needed a little break to calm his nerves, not that he just gave up in the middle of controlling the plane and threw his hands up.

 

[rbridges]

I'm just not seeing how starting an airplane with my headset off is going to ruin my hearing. Heck I hand prop the cub standing 3 feet from the exhaust stack and prop. It just does not seem loud to me. Now, I do realize that extended periods of sitting in the cockpit w no hearing protection, droning at 2500 RPM will eventually degrade your hearing.

I start my plane with my headsets off. It's probably a bad habit, but I usually don't put them on until I hit the avionics master which is usually 30 seconds total. It doesn't seem too loud to me. The magneto checks and especially take-off are pretty loud.

 

[danhagan]

I start my plane with my headsets off. It's probably a bad habit,

1. All of you are going to lose a ton of hearing no matter what as you age, get over it and start with headsets OFF. Makes getting out in an emergency easier as well.

2. I think Henning is correct regarding the OP. You PRACTICE emergencies so that the response is ingrained removing the chance of freezing up, slow or no response, etc. I've had several issues arise and get the reverse that most others do ... things seem to slow down or be in slow motion giving what seems an eternity to run flows.

To the OP:

1. You should have had a rotate/abort point already set.
2. The run-up could not have been normal, which would eliminate #1 above.
3. Watching an obstruction filling the windscreen without responding is not appropriate.
4. Being non-stabilized and too fast on final was poor planning ... requiring your pax to drop flaps for you makes no sense to me ... that and committing to the final half of the runway without getting wheels down.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

I do the same thing. When I open the window or door and say "Prop Clear" I want to be able to hear if someone yells back "STOP or Hold UP".

I start my plane with my headsets off. It's probably a bad habit, but I usually don't put them on until I hit the avionics master which is usually 30 seconds total. It doesn't seem too loud to me. The magneto checks and especially take-off are pretty loud.

 

[dell30rb]

1. You should have had a rotate/abort point already set.
2. The run-up could not have been normal, which would eliminate #1 above.
3. Watching an obstruction filling the windscreen without responding is not appropriate.
4. Being non-stabilized and too fast on final was poor planning ... requiring your pax to drop flaps for you makes no sense to me ... that and committing to the final half of the runway without getting wheels down.

2. Could have happened somewhere along the takeoff roll, all it takes is one big chunk of something to plug that injector. I'm with you though, an airplane running on 5/6 cylinders is going to act up and it should be noticed.

3. His first reaction was to steer parallel to the power lines, but his more experienced friend realized they were going to make it over the power lines just fine and took the controls. But sometimes you have to commit. When in doubt, hold Vx! (Unless there is another more appropriate option)

4. It does sound like he is behind the plane here. But, if I messed up an approach and had to choose between setting it down with 2500 feet of runway remaining or going around with a known engine problem, i'd do exactly what the OP did.. set it down.

 

[dell30rb]

The OP hasn't chimed back in since his OP but...

during the initial reading of his post, I really thought he forgot the word "to" as I inserted in bold above. This "shaking" event seems to comes well after he had relinquished controls to his co-pilot.

If that's the case then you can ignore my post about resignation.

 

[RoscoeT]

A Saratoga should perform adequately with two people and 5/6 cylinders.

It's not a 5/6 cylinder issue - it's that with a clogged injector, the fuel pump is delivering the same amount of fuel, but forced through 5 injector lines rather than 6. Makes the other 5 cylinders run way rich, hence the black smoke. This reduces power way beyond theoretically running normally on 5 cylinders.