First failure

Surely, but we were nowhere near peak output. Measured current was 25A. Also, bypassing the regulator (hotwiring the alternator field terminal to battery voltage, 12v) made no difference at all.

If you're only getting 25A when the field is directly connected to the battery, there's something haywire in that alternator. A couple of open diodes or a shorted one, or the brushes and slip rings are gummed up so the field isn't getting enough. Did you measure the field current? On a 12V alternator the field resistance (which should also be measured, but disconnect the field wire first) is around 3 to 4 ohms, and the field current therefore around 3 to 5 amps, max.

Anytime I have an alternator off for maintenance I check that field resistance at the terminal, and rotate the rotor while watching the ohmmeter's needle. (Digital meters, unless they cost a lot, can't do this for you.) The needle should stay fairly steady at 3 or 4, maybe 5 ohms. Higher means gummed up (or a 24V alternator), shaky needle means slip rings are damaged or something or a brush screw is loose.

Then the diodes can also be checked for shorts by verifying that electron flow is from the BAT terminal to ground, and no flow the other direction. Finding an open diode means either opening the alternator, or running it under load and using an oscilloscope to see the 3-phase waveform.

Corroded crimp terminals are found on the alternator power wire itself, at both ends. The corrosion can be hard to see since it's inside the crimp. The crimp terminal just squeezes the wire but unlike a soldered terminal, it doesn't keep out oxygen or moisture or oil, and the wire and the terminal develop oxidation and resistance begins to build. 36 years is plenty of time for that to happen. Commonly seen on landing light wires at the switch or breaker, sometimes at the battery cables. The high current flows generate some heat and the oxidation forms faster. A corroded crimp on a field wire could limit the field current and also be a factor here. Did you run a new, clean wire right from the battery to the field terminal on the alternator?

Dan
 
Dan - thanks, yes, we ran a clean wire (test lead) directly from the battery to the field terminal. And the output voltage was measured right at the output terminal... so the crimp terminals could not have been a factor, I gather.

I'm not sure if my mechanic measured the field current, I'll have to ask him. Ditto the field resistance. His multimeter is digital too, I have an analog meter though.

But again, my first alternator (bench tested good by rebuilder and able to supply rated current) was behaving in much the same way as this suspect one, at least as far as bus voltage is concerned.

I'd like to have this one bench tested, but I doubt there's any way to get it done as my mechanic doesn't have the equipment nor access to anyone who does. Are we really sure though that something is wrong in the alternator itself? It's being driven by the engine... through the belt and pulley. I still wonder how to be 100% sure of the belt.
 
I just got off the phone with my mechanic. He says T&W claims that the alternator we sent to them -- my original alternator, the Kelly that suddenly failed to put out enough to even charge the battery two weeks ago -- is perfectly good and putting out its 70 amps rated current.
Other than the "bad stator" (or was it rotor?) comment I don't think I ever heard any evidence that the original alternator was bad. One thing that's pretty certain is that T&W can test an alternator pretty darn thoroughly. An intermittent (e.g. heat sensitive) problem might go unnoticed but IIRC your original problem wasn't intermittent.

Now we're in a total quandary and have no idea what to try next. Obviously we're not going to put that one back in my airplane! But what else could possibly be wrong?

Here were my mechanic's thoughts:

1. Belt slippage could still be a possibility -- he suggested that he could sand alternator pulley a little. I hesitate to do this for fear that it might accelerate belt wear. Is this a realistic concern?
I'm no expert on belts and pulleys but roughing up the pulley's surface doesn't sound like a good idea to me. People have been depending on power transmission via v-belts for about a hundred years and roughened pulleys are not the norm. A belt can become glazed by repeated slipping but given that you said that turning the alternator pulley turns the engine, belt slipping seems unlikely. One possible simple test: a belt slipping under load will get very hot (and probably smell bad). There is a more complicated test (easy if you have the right tools) that involves measuring the frequency of the ripple (variations in the output voltage) which should be proportional to the engine RPM (double the RPM and double the ripple frequency). The ripple frequency can be measured with a dedicated alternator tester or with an oscilloscope, I'm guessing your mechanic has neither. Third option is to paint a white mark on a black pulley or vice versa and use an optical tach on the pulley to compare the proportionality with your engine tach. A lot of mechanics have optical tachs for checking prop RPM during annuals. Some require shining a bright light on the rotating part, some don't.

2. Another thought he had is that my electrical cabling, which is bundled together in salmon pink tape, might have some hidden fraying internally. This makes no sense to me. He measured 12.5 volts max, under peak load, at the output terminal of the alternator. I can't think of any way that frayed cable downstream could account for that. Besides, even at maximum load there is not much drop between the alternator output terminal and the bus -- at most 0.5 volts. He did measure the actual output wire current with his inductive ammeter under maximum load and found ~25 A.
You're getting better at this than your mechanic, perhaps he should pay you for the education. You are absolutely correct that the low voltage on the alternator's Bat terminal (measured at the stud, not the wire) as well as the minimal drop from there to the main bus indicates that the wire is carrying the load just fine. Same goes for the crimped terminals (the metal thing on the end of the wire that has a ring that goes on the alternator stud or the CB screw terminal), if there was a bad crimp the voltage on the alternator would be normal or high, not low.

There's no magic here, if you have good field voltage, no slippage, and weak output, there is a problem in the alternator. It might not be the only problem but it does need to be fixed. The only other alternative is that you aren't measuring things correctly. I mentioned grounds before, the alternator is normally grounded to the engine by it's mounting bracketry and the engine is grounded to the airframe with a woven strap. Chances are that if the engine grounding strap was resistive you would have problems with the starter turning slow, and it's pretty unlikely that the alternator isn't making good contact with the engine. But just to cover all the bases, you could measure the voltage between the alternator case and the airframe, it should be well under half a volt. Another redundant test would be to measure the field current, it should be in the vicinity of 3-4 amps with the engine stopped (master and alternator on) or with the engine running and the alternator loaded enough to drop the bus voltage.

One thing I can't tell from here is whether or not your alternator field connections are what's typical (one end grounded the other powered through the regulator) but since you said there were only two terminals on the alternator that almost has to be correct. My alternator has four terminals, two are for the field (one is connected by wire to ground) and in addition to the output (Bat) terminal there's one called "aux" which feeds my undervoltage detector. If yours had a second field terminal (for the ground side) it's possible that connection is resistive and there's a slim chance the regulator controls the ground side of the field with the positive side always at bus voltage. Checking the field current would put those (unlikely) concerns to rest.

Any thoughts from the gallery would be more than welcome! I am going crazy here trying to decide what to tell him to try next. My instincts tell me it has to be either the alternator is bad or the belt is slipping since the alternator is not putting out its rated current and that chasing bad wiring downstream is a waste of time.
Good instincts.

If these alternators are really good then it has to be the belt. But are they good? If T&W turns out one bad alternator after another, can I really trust their bench testing? Yet if they say they got 70A out of that alternator, it's hard to imagine how that can be in error.
It's hard (and wrong) to trust anything completely you don't witness
yourself but I expect they are giving you correct information. Are they also saying they did nothing to repair the alternator? What happened to the "bad stator/rotor"? Was T&W the source of that diagnosis? And don't forget you could have two problems at the same time meaning there's something wrong in addition to the currently bad alternator.

There is one other really unlikely possibility, the alternator pulley could be slipping on it's shaft. Some if not all are keyed but the key could be missing. But like I said, that's a really long shot.
 
Lance - my mechanic calls my alternator a "Ford alternator". I guess it's similar to the ones in Ford cars. :dunno: Does that help? Anyway I'm nearly certain mine has only one field wire -- my mechanic pointed out the two wires coming from it, output and field. If it's grounded via its mounting bracket as you say, that's all there should be.

The "bad stator" diagnosis was from an auto parts place my mechanic took it to. He originally said rotor -- I'm not sure if he misremembered the first time or the second. So it could have been either (now I'm getting crazy enough to wonder if it was actually neither?! -- but I won't go there :no:). I gather they did not repair the alternator -- I didn't ask specifically, but I had the impression that they had no reason to, it bench tested up to spec. But I have no idea how extensively they tested it.

If my original alternator really is good then there definitely is something else wrong since the charging system failed in flight two weeks ago and acted flaky on the ground a few times in the preceding weeks (brief drops of bus voltage into the 11.x volt range). I'm tempted to ask for that one back and consider it a "known good alternator" and repeat all the measurements we did this week with IT installed.

But what you say about maybe not measuring things correctly is something I'm trying not to forget -- and asking my mechanic now for all the details I can think of. The problem is that I was inside the plane operating the throttle/switches and standing on the brakes while he was doing the measurements. So I only know as much detail about his measurement technique as I thought to ask him. Is it possible that he was taking the output voltage from a test lead plugged into a crimp terminal instead of the stud? I'm really not sure.

It's possible I guess that there was a problem with my original voltage regulator -- my mechanic put in a spare one that he had lying around -- and that we took out a perfectly good alternator and replaced it with a bad one. In which case we would find everything checking out normal if we put the first alternator back in.

That seems actually likelier than some of the crazier thoughts I've had about this today... :confused:
 
Last edited:
Lance - my mechanic calls my alternator a "Ford alternator". I guess it's similar to the ones in Ford cars. :dunno: Does that help? Anyway I'm nearly certain mine has only one field wire -- my mechanic pointed out the two wires coming from it, output and field. If it's grounded via its mounting bracket as you say, that's all there should be.
I'd want to make certain there wasn't a third terminal that's supposed to have a wire on it. Keep in mind that it's not unusual to have a terminal with no wires on it. It would really help if we had a wiring diagram for your airplane. That should be in the shop manual and your mechanic should have one of those.

The "bad stator" diagnosis was from an auto parts place my mechanic took it to. He originally said rotor -- I'm not sure if he misremembered the first time or the second. So it could have been either (now I'm getting crazy enough to wonder if it was actually neither?! -- but I won't go there :no:). I gather they did not repair the alternator -- I didn't ask specifically, but I had the impression that they had no reason to, it bench tested up to spec. But I have no idea how extensively they tested it.

If my original alternator really is good then there definitely is something else wrong since the charging system failed in flight two weeks ago and acted flaky on the ground a few times in the preceding weeks (brief drops of bus voltage into the 11.x volt range). I'm tempted to ask for that one back and consider it a "known good alternator" and repeat all the measurements we did this week with IT installed.
That's not a bad idea, but I'd be tempted to take the one you suspect to be bad off the airplane and have it tested locally first.

But what you say about maybe not measuring things correctly is something I'm trying not to forget -- and asking my mechanic now for all the details I can think of. The problem is that I was inside the plane operating the throttle and standing on the brakes while he was doing the measurements. So I only know as much detail about his measurement technique as I thought to ask him. Is it possible that he was taking the output voltage from a test lead plugged into a crimp terminal instead of the stud? I'm really not sure.
Hopefully, if you asked he'd remember if he was clipped to the stud or the wire terminal end. Chances are it was the stud because that's usually easier but we shouldn't be guessing about anything at this point. And before you pull anything off the airplane, check the current in the field wire and measure the voltage from the alternator case to airframe ground. It's likely both measurements will be as expected (normal) but more data never hurts and those are both simple tests.

I'm also a believer in repeating measurements when the results are are inconclusive or suggesting a the same part be replaced twice. A measurement error is at least as likely as a defective "new" part. When making additional identical measurements it's important to write the old and new results down and then compare them. If you get inconsistent readings it's awfully easy to convince yourself you remembered wrong and having them on paper is good proof against that.
 
I'd want to make certain there wasn't a third terminal that's supposed to have a wire on it. Keep in mind that it's not unusual to have a terminal with no wires on it. It would really help if we had a wiring diagram for your airplane. That should be in the shop manual and your mechanic should have one of those.
I wish I had one but I don't think I do -- I've already searched everything I have at home. I didn't get one (that I know of) from the seller and I don't think my mechanic has one either, but I'm not sure. If I have one it's bundled with the AFM or in my bag of avionics manuals -- both in the airplane. It's a shame, since the owner of the Cardinal I flew back a few years had one and was able to do some of her own electrical troubleshooting thanks to it.

That's not a bad idea, but I'd be tempted to take the one you suspect to be bad off the airplane and have it tested locally first.
Sure, but given what happened last time would you really rely on a test done in an auto parts shop? (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "tested locally" -- it's the only kind of local facility we have access to.)

And before you pull anything off the airplane, check the current in the field wire and measure the voltage from the alternator case to airframe ground. It's likely both measurements will be as expected (normal) but more data never hurts and those are both simple tests.
Yep, I'll make sure we do that first, thanks. Hopefully we can hold both alternators for a day or so.

I'm also a believer in repeating measurements when the results are are inconclusive or suggesting a the same part be replaced twice. A measurement error is at least as likely as a defective "new" part. When making additional identical measurements it's important to write the old and new results down and then compare them. If you get inconsistent readings it's awfully easy to convince yourself you remembered wrong and having them on paper is good proof against that.
That's part of why I've been posting results here as soon as I have them, so they'll be written in stone so to speak. But you're right, I should be writing them down at the hangar too. My mechanic doesn't do that either (witness the stator/rotor confusion), and his memory has failed him enough times that I don't have much confidence in his troubleshooting technique.
 
I wish I had one but I don't think I do -- I've already searched everything I have at home. I didn't get one (that I know of) from the seller and I don't think my mechanic has one either, but I'm not sure. If I have one it's bundled with the AFM or in my bag of avionics manuals -- both in the airplane. It's a shame, since the owner of the Cardinal I flew back a few years had one and was able to do some of her own electrical troubleshooting thanks to it.
You might be able to find a complete shop/parts manual set onlinie. I carry a flashdrive with all the airplane, engine, and avionics manuals I could download. I'd think that Cardinal Fliers would have the scoop on that.


Sure, but given what happened last time would you really rely on a test done in an auto parts shop? (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "tested locally" -- it's the only kind of local facility we have access to.)
If I was able to witness said testing, a lot. At this point I think you probably understand the basics well enough to render the same judgment.

That's part of why I've been posting results here as soon as I have them, so they'll be written in stone so to speak. But you're right, I should be writing them down at the hangar too. My mechanic doesn't do that either (witness the stator/rotor confusion), and his memory has failed him enough times that I don't have much confidence in his troubleshooting technique.
The one thing I can usually remember is that my memory isn't so good.
 
Okay...

1. He was clipped to the alternator output stud.

2. He referenced to both the engine and the airframe -- no difference.

3. The auto parts shop just puts on a belt, drives the alternator and reads various values out from a computer. There's no way he or I could judge whether their measurements are valid or not.

4. He never tried the original alternator with the original regulator -- but he did measure 11.7 volts at the alternator field terminal with only the master on. (So it's unlikely to be a problem with the VR.)

5. He agreed to check the alternator grounding, since apparently those wires came with the airplane.

6. There is only one field terminal.

We should have the original alternator back today. The plan is to swap it in and do the same measurements. Most likely the problem is with the alternator belt, but I want to be thorough and make sure we've eliminated everything else.
 
I hope that turns out to be the fix.........:fcross::fcross::fcross:

If so it will be a very expensive and time consuming belt tensioning lesson for sure. .

Altho if it were me troubleshooting it, one of the first things I would have done was to feel the temp of the alt pulley after doing a load test while it was on the plane. A slipping belt will heat up that pulley pretty darn fast.

Ben.
 
I'd want to make certain there wasn't a third terminal that's supposed to have a wire on it. Keep in mind that it's not unusual to have a terminal with no wires on it. It would really help if we had a wiring diagram for your airplane. That should be in the shop manual and your mechanic should have one of those.

That third terminal on a Ford alternator is the stator terminal. The stator's windings are Y-connected and the stator terminal is the common point. In a car that terminal was sometimes used to drive the electric choke coil. In an airplane it isn't used. It has a black insulator, while the field's is orange and the BAT is red.

That alternator should have a ground cable. If not, the engine mount is expected to carry a constant current and can become magnetized and screw up the compass, and any corrosion at the mounting points can cause alternator problems as well as starting problems.

Dan
 
I hope that turns out to be the fix.........:fcross::fcross::fcross:

If so it will be a very expensive and time consuming belt tensioning lesson for sure. .

Altho if it were me troubleshooting it, one of the first things I would have done was to feel the temp of the alt pulley after doing a load test while it was on the plane. A slipping belt will heat up that pulley pretty darn fast.

Ben.
Question: if the reason for the slippage wasn't improper tensioning but an oil leak, would the pulley heat up so much?

This is a serious thought and one my mechanic said he would look into. The alternator on the Cardinal is just below/behind the prop seal, so a leaky prop seal could allow a slow trickle of oil to lube the belt and pulleys.
 
Answer.. Yes, a oil leak would lubricate the belt and pulley and reduce heating of the pulley. But, there should be obvious glazing on the belt and pulley surface from the oil contamination.

Ben.
 
Answer.. Yes, a oil leak would lubricate the belt and pulley and reduce heating of the pulley. But, there should be obvious glazing on the belt and pulley surface from the oil contamination.

Ben.
Thanks... and there isn't any obvious (to me, anyway) glazing. I'd think my mechanic would notice that before I would.

The belt tension has been checked, and rechecked, and checked again. He was able to turn the prop by turning the alternator pulley.

Sigh.

Is there any other way the belt could be slipping without leaving an obvious clue? This is getting more than a little frustrating, since if it isn't belt slippage and alternator #1 shows the same output terminal voltage as alternator #2 (I say "if" because alternator #1 is still at my mechanic's house and has not yet been tried with the new voltage regulator), then we will have eliminated ALL possibilities.

If the output voltage is low, the alternator tests good on the bench, and the belt is not slipping, what else is there ??? :mad2:
 
Thanks... and there isn't any obvious (to me, anyway) glazing. I'd think my mechanic would notice that before I would.

The belt tension has been checked, and rechecked, and checked again. He was able to turn the prop by turning the alternator pulley.

Sigh.

Is there any other way the belt could be slipping without leaving an obvious clue? This is getting more than a little frustrating, since if it isn't belt slippage and alternator #1 shows the same output terminal voltage as alternator #2 (I say "if" because alternator #1 is still at my mechanic's house and has not yet been tried with the new voltage regulator), then we will have eliminated ALL possibilities.

If the output voltage is low, the alternator tests good on the bench, and the belt is not slipping, what else is there ??? :mad2:
Well, there's the pulley slipping on the shaft I mentioned earlier but I think that's a really long shot. If you truly do find that alternator #1 behaves in the same manner as #2, either you have two bad alternators or some errors were made with the measurements. But I suspect that alternator #2 will perform properly, at least for a while. That doesn't mean it will completely solve the problem, just that it should provide adequate voltage at it's output terminal when the field is properly energized. BTW, I don't believe I saw anywhere that you measured the field current, has that been done? By just measuring the field voltage we are relying on the assumption that the other end of the field is at ground potential (which is likely but not certain). Measuring the field current gives significant confirmation that the field is properly excited.
 
Thanks... and there isn't any obvious (to me, anyway) glazing. I'd think my mechanic would notice that before I would.

The belt tension has been checked, and rechecked, and checked again. He was able to turn the prop by turning the alternator pulley.


If the output voltage is low, the alternator tests good on the bench, and the belt is not slipping, what else is there ??? :mad2:

It's not likely a slipping belt. Some alternators have pulleys that are held by friction alone and a loose nut can let the pulley spin on the rotor shaft, but considerable wear would be evident.

And if the alternator tests fine on the bench, is it being loaded to capacity during that test? 70 amps? Or are they just taking a voltage reading, which tells us nothing as to how it can handle a real load?

You really need to take amperage readings at the field to see that it's getting adequate input. Without proper input, output will be dismal. A field voltage, again, means nothing if the field circuit itself has an issue that prevents it letting that voltage push adequate current through it. Even a burned-out bulb has voltage at its base but it doesn't work because amperage can't do anything for it.

Dan
 
Fast and easy way to test belt tension is to run the motor up to as high as it can without overheating or dragging the tires/brakes and load the electrical system as high as you can. I mean all lights, radios, pitot heat, the works. As you turn on each device note the voltage drop. As you bring on additional loads the field needs info/ voltage to keep up so trends might show up, like... Small loads might be not bring the charging system to its knees but high draw devices do. After that test quickly feel the pulley and belt for elevated temps. I am in agreement with Lance and Dan. Check for excitement voltage as an alternator can only produce what it is being asked to put out. The voltage regulator is the info sender for that demand. There is a good chance you have two bad alternators back to back though.

Ben
 
Two alternators bad back to back, and the first one was bench tested by a certified aircraft alternator rebuild shop (T&W) and declared to be good?! (And yes, they said it put out 70 amps -- so reported my mechanic, I didn't talk to them directly.)

We have not tested the field current that I know of, only the voltage. I've only asked my guy to check the field-to-ground resistance and to double check that the alternator really is grounded to the airframe. I'll insist that he actually measure the field current, first in alternator #2 before he swaps it out (since he should be able to do that with the engine off) and then again in alternator #1 once it's installed again, if performance under load is dismal as expected.

Also, the VR that's installed now is NOT the one I was flying with. My mechanic put in a spare that he had lying around, and that's what we've been doing all the detailed testing with. However, as I wrote before, we performed a maximum load measurement with the VR bypassed (field terminal hotwired to the battery) and it behaved the same as with the VR in the circuit.

Note that all of our measurements were done on alternator #2. Alternator #1 was taken out quickly and replaced, the same low bus voltage was found as with alternator #1, then the VR was changed out. At least with alternator #2, it is definitely high load situations that bring the alternator down. We haven't run the engine up to >2000 rpm on the ramp but that's the trend at 1500-1700 rpm. It takes everything on at once to pull the output voltage at the alternator down to 12.3v or so, but when that happens it's only putting out 25A. However, the bus voltage with only beacon and avionics is about 13.5, which says something is not performing up to spec -- and it's weak to the same degree as I've noticed since I bought the airplane, i.e. with alternator #1.

I guess it's possible that with alternator #1 we'll find that the problem is solved -- i.e. regulator #1 AND alternator #2 were both bad and in such a way as to cause the same symptom -- but somehow I think that's a real long shot. More likely it is as Lance said -- some of the measurements were not done properly, and unfortunately I'm dependent on my mechanic for the actual measurement taking. :mad2:
 
Last edited:
The symptoms still lead me to think there's resistance in the output delivery circuitry. Poor attachment of the alternator output line to any filters that are located in that line, lousy attachment of that line to the breaker or breaker to the bus, or corroded connections somewhere. Where is the 25A measurement taken? If there's a resistance anywhere in a line delivering 25A there will be heat generated. Feel those connections after a run. Don't burn your fingers.

Wish I was there when it gets figured out. We'd all learn something. And you WILL learn something, believe me. There's an upside to such trials.

Dan
 
Dan: The output voltage measurement is taken at the alternator output terminal itself. Not the output wire. The current, of course, is measured in the output wire. However, the voltage drop from the output terminal to the bus is of order 0.5v at 25A -- 12.5v at the terminal to 12.0 at the bus, but I think this is a memory slip on my mechanic's part since I'm pretty sure he told me 12.3 at the time. But even if it was 12.5, that implies a maximum resistance of 0.02 ohm over the length of the output wire... and it still doesn't explain the low voltage at the output terminal.

Either that alternator is bad or the belt (or pulley) is slipping. What other logical conclusion can there be? (assuming the measurements were done correctly) What I want to see is how alternator #1 performs under load testing... hopefully on Monday. It burns me that my mechanic is now out of town for the weekend with alternator #1 stashed at his house...
 
Last edited:
There is one other possibility that Paul@CFO insisted was very real: corrosion in the grounding wire, either alternator-to-engine or engine-to-airframe or both. My mechanic claims he referenced all voltages to both the engine and the airframe. I don't recall him saying that he tried referencing the output voltage to the alternator case, in which case THAT could well be 14v and everything else 12, if the alternator-to-engine ground is bad.

BTW Paul replied very quickly in a private email. CFO is a great bunch of people.
 
There is one other possibility that Paul@CFO insisted was very real: corrosion in the grounding wire, either alternator-to-engine or engine-to-airframe or both. My mechanic claims he referenced all voltages to both the engine and the airframe. I don't recall him saying that he tried referencing the output voltage to the alternator case, in which case THAT could well be 14v and everything else 12, if the alternator-to-engine ground is bad.
Yep. I think I mentioned measuring the voltage between the alternator case and the airframe with the alternator loaded, a very easy way to check for a ground problem.
 
Yes, and that's exactly what I asked him to do a couple of days ago. But even so, I was starting to think of it as a long-shot possibility because I didn't really think through what it meant. If that's what is happening, these alternators aren't "struggling" to put out a measly fraction of their rated current, they're just, in effect, wired incorrectly.
 
I finally got back together with my mechanic today. We checked the voltage drop under load from the alternator casing (alternator #2) to the airframe. It was maybe 0.1 volts. So the problem doesn't appear to be a bad ground. In hindsight I wonder a little about the main bus ground, but only a little, because of what we found afterward, which was...

Definite signs of belt slippage. There was belt residue on the starter, and a former Cardinal owner who dropped by to see the Branded Bird said the sides of the belt felt glazed. I'm not sure what it feels like normally so I couldn't comment. My mechanic will replace the belt, but he insists that there was no sign of slippage earlier when he removed alternator #1. I wonder if the slippage might have been just starting, and it took a few more tenths of a tach hour before the belt actually started coming apart.

We did not measure the field current and I'm not sure why. My mechanic had some resistance to doing it. I think he said there was no way he could connect it in the circuit with the field wire. Before I applied the load he did put the meter on the 10 amp scale and connected the leads between the alternator casing and the airframe, which to me didn't make a lot of sense, but then what do I know?

So the plan now is to change the belt and see if that makes a difference.
 
I finally got back together with my mechanic today. We checked the voltage drop under load from the alternator casing (alternator #2) to the airframe. It was maybe 0.1 volts. So the problem doesn't appear to be a bad ground. In hindsight I wonder a little about the main bus ground, but only a little, because of what we found afterward, which was...

Definite signs of belt slippage. There was belt residue on the starter, and a former Cardinal owner who dropped by to see the Branded Bird said the sides of the belt felt glazed. I'm not sure what it feels like normally so I couldn't comment. My mechanic will replace the belt, but he insists that there was no sign of slippage earlier when he removed alternator #1. I wonder if the slippage might have been just starting, and it took a few more tenths of a tach hour before the belt actually started coming apart.

We did not measure the field current and I'm not sure why. My mechanic had some resistance to doing it. I think he said there was no way he could connect it in the circuit with the field wire. Before I applied the load he did put the meter on the 10 amp scale and connected the leads between the alternator casing and the airframe, which to me didn't make a lot of sense, but then what do I know?

So the plan now is to change the belt and see if that makes a difference.

I hope that is your problem ma'am.. It will make life alot easier.

ben.
 
Could it be that your mech didn't get the belt tight enough when he installed #2? If so, the problems could perhaps have downstreamed to your present conundrum, if I understand it correctly.

I finally got back together with my mechanic today. We checked the voltage drop under load from the alternator casing (alternator #2) to the airframe. It was maybe 0.1 volts. So the problem doesn't appear to be a bad ground. In hindsight I wonder a little about the main bus ground, but only a little, because of what we found afterward, which was...

Definite signs of belt slippage. There was belt residue on the starter, and a former Cardinal owner who dropped by to see the Branded Bird said the sides of the belt felt glazed. I'm not sure what it feels like normally so I couldn't comment. My mechanic will replace the belt, but he insists that there was no sign of slippage earlier when he removed alternator #1. I wonder if the slippage might have been just starting, and it took a few more tenths of a tach hour before the belt actually started coming apart.

We did not measure the field current and I'm not sure why. My mechanic had some resistance to doing it. I think he said there was no way he could connect it in the circuit with the field wire. Before I applied the load he did put the meter on the 10 amp scale and connected the leads between the alternator casing and the airframe, which to me didn't make a lot of sense, but then what do I know?

So the plan now is to change the belt and see if that makes a difference.
 
Could it be that your mech didn't get the belt tight enough when he installed #2? If so, the problems could perhaps have downstreamed to your present conundrum, if I understand it correctly.
He double checked the tightness last week.

Part of the problem could have been the first voltage regulator. We won't know for sure until we have alternator #1 with VR #2 and the new belt.

I'm inclined to change only the belt first, and then swap in alternator #1 if #2 behaves well under load with the new belt. I'd prefer to change one variable at a time, unless there's a reason to not use a belt on more than one alternator pulley (I have no idea, just asking).
 
Well I now have a new alternator belt and the Branded Bird is ready to fly again. How long he will be flying is anyone's guess. I don't have any answers to show for all the labor time I'll be paying for.

My mechanic ran the engine up and reported that the bus voltage held at or above 13.8 with all normal continuous loads -- beacon, navs, strobes, and avionics -- which is better than it did before. Turning on the pitot heat caused it to dip below 13v again, so there is still something not right. At least, assuming my mechanic's inductive ammeter is accurate enough and we're not drawing >60 amps.

I've now replaced the alternator, the voltage regulator, and the belt and am no closer to a solution. My mechanic thinks I may be chasing a non-existent problem. I say that unless I'm drawing >60A with everything on, the alternator stud voltage should not drop. I asked him to zip the cowl and I will run it up tomorrow and test fly it. I don't want to pay him any more money to try to troubleshoot something he clearly doesn't have the expertise for (and that's not to detract from his skills as an A&P, he's just not an aircraft electrics man). If I see any signs of another imminent failure or that my charging system may not be keeping juice in my battery, I'll try to find an electrics specialist shop and take it there, or as a last resort take it to an authorized Cessna shop. (edit -- I should say, I will be looking for an electrics specialist shop SO THAT if I see any signs of continuing problems, I can take it there right away, otherwise I may delay getting to the bottom of it until my IR is finished.)

I decided to keep alternator #2 as I just plain don't trust my original alternator (the Kelly). If it turns out to be good, then I have a spare.
 
Last edited:
I flew the airplane today. My mechanic was wrong, the bus voltage cycles between 13.5 and 13.8 with beacon, strobes, and avionics. Adding the navs drops it down to 13.2-13.4, which is basically the same behavior as with the Kelly. I also noticed that it drops to around 12.3 during the time the gear are going down, and knowing that the gear motor runs for a couple seconds or so out of every 30, it's very possible the variations are due to that. I have no idea how much current the gear motor draws, but I can't believe it should be enough to put the total draw over the alternator's rated value.

As before, adding the pitot heat also caused the bus voltage to drop quickly, though not as quickly as the gear motor.

The ammeter needle shows a momentary discharge every time the beacon flashes on.

Logically it would seem that this alternator must be bad, assuming my mechanic's measurements were done correctly: most likely an open stator wire. However, the fact that this one behaves pretty much the same as the other one did from the time I bought the airplane, makes me think we're missing something, that the alternators may even both be good and that it's something else entirely, and the only way that's possible is if he didn't do them correctly after all.

I did bring the Kelly home today and measured the field-ground resistance. I found that it varies between 5 and about 20 ohms as the pulley is turned.

But it's difficult to impossible for me to do these measurements myself in the airplanebecause of the way the alternator is mounted on the Cardinal -- you have to remove it to access the BAT and field terminals, there is no way to get at them from underneath. It is also quite a project to reattach the lower cowl afterward -- not something I'd want to tackle alone.

So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed.
 
I did bring the Kelly home today and measured the field-ground resistance. I found that it varies between 5 and about 20 ohms as the pulley is turned.

But it's difficult to impossible for me to do these measurements myself in the airplanebecause of the way the alternator is mounted on the Cardinal -- you have to remove it to access the BAT and field terminals, there is no way to get at them from underneath. It is also quite a project to reattach the lower cowl afterward -- not something I'd want to tackle alone.

So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed.

That 5 to 20 ohm field resistance is BAD. You have a pair of dirty or damaged slip rings and maybe brushes, too. Whoever had it apart didn't fix anything. Bet you'll find, if you take it apart, that things are either worn out or there's grease or oil on the slip ring assembly. Kelly uses too much grease in that aft bearing, in my experience.

You should have four or five ohms as the pulley is turned and the ohmmeter needle shouldn't wiggle much at all. That alternator can't possibly be producing much, with such indefinite brush conduction of the field current.

In the picture below, note the shininess of the slip rings, the length of the carbon brushes, and the springs that make them stay in contact with the slip rings. If the slip rings are dirty or grooved or lumpy or burned or greased up, they won't conduct properly. If the brushes are worn too short they'll cock in the holder and cause intermittent contact; itf they get short enough they fall out and the springs chew up the slip rings. If the springs get hot (as in the case of a broken brush cable) they lose their tension and the field current suffers.

350px-Rotorcircuit.jpg


Dan
 
Last edited:
That 5 to 20 ohm field resistance is BAD. You have a pair of dirty or damaged slip rings and maybe brushes, too. Whoever had it apart didn't fix anything. Bet you'll find, if you take it apart, that things are either worn out or there's grease or oil on the slip ring assembly. Kelly uses too much grease in that aft bearing, in my experience

You should have four or five ohms as the pulley is turned and the ohmmeter needle shouldn't wiggle much at all. That alternator can't possibly be producing much, with such indefinite brush conduction of the field current.

Ugh. T&W had it but they didn't take it apart AFAIK, they only bench tested it and reported that it put out its rated current (according to my mechanic, actually 70A). BTW the alternator in the airplane now is a T&W.

I'm going to have to redo my measurement tomorrow to be sure of the values -- I need to raid my Dad's shop and find a second alligator clip lead as I had some difficulty getting good contact between the field post and the ohmmeter test lead. But the resistances at each position were consistent so I'm sure it's not all artifact.
 
Ugh. T&W had it but they didn't take it apart AFAIK, they only bench tested it and reported that it put out its rated current (according to my mechanic, actually 70A). BTW the alternator in the airplane now is a T&W.

I'm going to have to redo my measurement tomorrow to be sure of the values -- I need to raid my Dad's shop and find a second alligator clip lead as I had some difficulty getting good contact between the field post and the ohmmeter test lead. But the resistances at each position were consistent so I'm sure it's not all artifact.

On many alternators you can remove the brush block without taking anything else apart. That should allow you to ascertain the condition of the brushes and slip rings.

You can also measure the field resistance by taking the field wire off the regulator and measuring from that wire to airframe ground. You'd have to rotate the prop to turn the alternator though (and be careful WRT the prop and the potential for the engine to fire or start). I don't know if the regulator is any easier to get to than the alternator but it might be. If you do find high resistance, it could be either the alternator or the wiring so you'd have to look further to find the source. But if the resistance checks out as normal you can be sure the brushes are good.

But I remain suspicious about your chances of having two weak alternators. It's definitely possible but not terribly likely.
 
On many alternators you can remove the brush block without taking anything else apart. That should allow you to ascertain the condition of the brushes and slip rings.
It's very difficult to work on or around the alternator without dropping the lower cowl. Or did you mean the one I have at home?

You can also measure the field resistance by taking the field wire off the regulator and measuring from that wire to airframe ground. You'd have to rotate the prop to turn the alternator though (and be careful WRT the prop and the potential for the engine to fire or start). I don't know if the regulator is any easier to get to than the alternator but it might be.
It's fairly easy to get to, under the upper cowl next to the firewall. But I don't recall that there are any markings on the individual wires. There are actually four of them that are wired into a wide plug that fits into the regulator unit. That might be why my mechanic couldn't figure out a way to put an ammeter in the field circuit.

But I remain suspicious about your chances of having two weak alternators. It's definitely possible but not terribly likely.
That's been why I keep looking for something else in the airplane -- yet if my mechanic did his measurements correctly, I don't see any way around the conclusion that my present alternator is weak. And if it is, then the chances of having a second weak alternator are exactly the same as those of having one weak alternator.
 
But I remain suspicious about your chances of having two weak alternators. It's definitely possible but not terribly likely.

A local shop has complained of an increasing number of DOA replacement (overhauled or repaired) parts this year. The owner wonders about QA and workforce stability at the specialty shops that do the work. Their sensitivity to bad parts is understandable, since they can't charge the customer for the time of troubleshooting and replacing the bad parts.
 
On many alternators you can remove the brush block without taking anything else apart. That should allow you to ascertain the condition of the brushes and slip rings.

You can also measure the field resistance by taking the field wire off the regulator and measuring from that wire to airframe ground. You'd have to rotate the prop to turn the alternator though (and be careful WRT the prop and the potential for the engine to fire or start). I don't know if the regulator is any easier to get to than the alternator but it might be. If you do find high resistance, it could be either the alternator or the wiring so you'd have to look further to find the source. But if the resistance checks out as normal you can be sure the brushes are good.

But I remain suspicious about your chances of having two weak alternators. It's definitely possible but not terribly likely.
You don't know Kelly. I routinely send an OH kelly to Airmotive and that's my solution. Kelly is the sole OH-er for Chrysler alternators for TSIO360EB.

I've had THREE BAD ONES in stock at once. And for warranty, you put up $2,000 until they get the core. Some warranty, huh?
 
You don't know Kelly. I routinely send an OH kelly to Airmotive and that's my solution. Kelly is the sole OH-er for Chrysler alternators for TSIO360EB.

I've had THREE BAD ONES in stock at once. And for warranty, you put up $2,000 until they get the core. Some warranty, huh?

Someone please remind me of what "yellow tag" means .????? :dunno::dunno:


Ben.
 
A local shop has complained of an increasing number of DOA replacement (overhauled or repaired) parts this year. The owner wonders about QA and workforce stability at the specialty shops that do the work. Their sensitivity to bad parts is understandable, since they can't charge the customer for the time of troubleshooting and replacing the bad parts.
One local avionics guy who is very well regarded told me he knows someone who is on his fifth Kelly in a row, the first four having been bad. Then after I told him my new alternator is a T&W he said "I'll give you the number of someone else who is on his fourth T&W".

So I would not be surprised to have two bad alternators in a row. What makes me suspicious is that they're exhibiting exactly the same symptom, namely bus voltage dropping with load. (I say "bus" because we never measured the Kelly's output voltage.)
 
One local avionics guy who is very well regarded told me he knows someone who is on his fifth Kelly in a row, the first four having been bad. Then after I told him my new alternator is a T&W he said "I'll give you the number of someone else who is on his fourth T&W".

So I would not be surprised to have two bad alternators in a row. What makes me suspicious is that they're exhibiting exactly the same symptom, namely bus voltage dropping with load. (I say "bus" because we never measured the Kelly's output voltage.)

Agreed. I wouldn't be all that surprised to get two malfunctioning alternators from an O/H shop, but two from different shops with identical symptoms is a bit less likely. Of course we have to remember that low output current is a symptom with several potential sources internal to an alternator so the two wouldn't necessarily have the same root cause
 
It's very difficult to work on or around the alternator without dropping the lower cowl. Or did you mean the one I have at home?
The latter. You performed a resistance check which indicated a problem. Pulling the brush block might shed some light on that and confirm the diagnosis on your spare.

It's fairly easy to get to, under the upper cowl next to the firewall. But I don't recall that there are any markings on the individual wires. There are actually four of them that are wired into a wide plug that fits into the regulator unit. That might be why my mechanic couldn't figure out a way to put an ammeter in the field circuit.
It appears that you and your mechanic are still attempting to fix this problem without a shop manual and/or detailed, aircraft specific wiring diagram. Obtaining that should be a high priority right now as it will provide a clearer picture of how things are supposed to be wired. There's always the potential that something is connected incorrectly and you aren't likely to uncover that without a proper diagram. Even if it doesn't help with your current problem, A shop manual is something anyone doing more than the most rudimentary repairs should have. Since your airplane is relatively uncommon, it would be very wise to obtain and keep such a reference for yourself. You might even be able to locate a downloadable one online.
 
On many alternators you can remove the brush block without taking anything else apart. That should allow you to ascertain the condition of the brushes and slip rings.

That's the Motorola alternator. I thought I saw somewhere earlier in this thread that this was a Ford DOFF10300 alternator, which needs to come apart to get at the brushes.

Dan
 
It's fairly easy to get to, under the upper cowl next to the firewall. But I don't recall that there are any markings on the individual wires. There are actually four of them that are wired into a wide plug that fits into the regulator unit. That might be why my mechanic couldn't figure out a way to put an ammeter in the field circuit.


When you are looking at the regulator so that the label is facing you right side up, there's a wide plug along its bottom. That plug connects to four terminals, with probably only three of them active. They are, left to right, I-A-S-F. I is for the indicator in a car (idiot light). The A comes from the alternator's output terminal and gives output voltage information and supplies the regulator with field current. The S terminal goes to the alternator switch on the panel to turn the regulator on, and the F terminal is the field wire. Pull off the plug and measure the resistance between that F wire and ground, and carefully rotate the prop to see what the ohmmeter says. Turning the prop backward is a lot safer but treat it with respect anyway.

Dan
 
Back
Top