First driverless car pedestrian death

Infrared imaging can be much more robust than you may realize (I'm one of the original inventors and patent holders of this sensor, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod ), but there might be some mild objections to raising the price of a $50,000 automobile to $1,050,000... :D
That's something I've been wondering about. If safe self-driving cars turn out to be possible, will they be affordable?
 
That is kinda my point too. The source of the training data and what the network is taking into account is the program team. Whatever they didn't anticipate happening isn't trained for, isn't sensed for, isn't accounted for.

Exactly. I thought you were talking more from the standpoint of if-then sort of programming. As you say, the key to getting a robust, well trained neural network is making sure that there is a extremely high quality training data set and then verifying the results with a high-quality verification data set which has no overlap with the training set. As also mentioned, continuous training can happen in real-world situations, but only if there is an aware human to take over and provide corrective feedback so that the network can learn what it should have done. Clearly a failure in this particular case.


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Probably my fault - I said "programmer" when I really intended "program team".
 
When my son was learning to drive my attention did not waiver for a moment. The terror was sufficient to keep me engaged.
For an hour or two at a time at most. Not for Days of driving around all day.
 
I think accident avoidance can be broken down into roughly 3 stages.

1) Perception. IOW “seeing” that an accident may be imminent. Sensors can perceive far beyond the limits of human vision, and look in all directions at once. I think computers will win handily here.

2) Decision. IOW determining what action to take. This is where programming is the key, but the speed at which calculations can be run heavily favors computers. Accidents are often over before a human has “decided” what to do, and even then the decision is often wrong.

3) Reaction time. No contest. Human reaction time can be measured in seconds, computers in milliseconds.

Put them all together and self-driving vehicles will be much safer - IMHO, of course.
1. Unless there is a defect in the sensor, or glare, or dirt, etc....
2. Computers aren’t real good at making decisions they haven’t been told to make yet. AI is not to the point of real time processing yet. Not even close.
3. Except when the computers reaction time is measured in 10s or 100s of seconds. Anybody that’s used a computer knows this happens at times.
 
Imagine an AI programmed to run through billions of real-life scenarios a second, and learning from them. First few bounce house scenarios it squishes a kid or two. It learns, “If bounce house, then slow down”. Over the next hundred billion scenarios it learns that that greatly lessens squished kids and it incorporates that algorithm.

If we learned that lesson, no reason why a computer couldn’t.
And 10years later cars are going 2mph because there’s always something nearby that could increase risk.
 
Oh, I dunno; the ability to put a missile through a particular window of a particular automobile at very long range has a certain appeal.... :devil:
Long range... Nah. Just outside the blast radius, I wanna watch the fireworks! :)
 
Hi.
It looks like AZ decided to stop these idiots from testing in the state. I hope others follow along.
It is not acceptable to allow them to test if they are not capable of detecting, and taking action, for this particular condition.
If they missed this, which is very straight forward, and easily detectable, who knows what other conditions they are not testing for.
 
I got into it one day with someone telling me what a great idea emergency braking systems are. Some vehicles have rear sensors that will apply brakes if you are about to back into something.

I think there are problems with that, and auto-drive cars are going to have to make accommodations there, too.

Zombie apocalypse scenario (or anti-whatever mob in the streets): Sometimes you just have to run over somebody.
 
Zombie apocalypse scenario (or anti-whatever mob in the streets): Sometimes you just have to run over somebody.

That reminds me: In the video game Battlefield 1942, I have found that the American Jeep is one of the most deadly weapons there is, especially when enemy troops are bunched up. It's also capable of taking out a tank in a single blow (suicide run). :D
 
So while y’all have been debating whether or not the engineers can get it right...

Intel and Aptiv came out with news that the Volvo Uber was using had the Volvo safety collision avoidance system on board.

And it had been disabled.

And Intel took the grainy crappy footage provided by Uber from the visible light camera and fed it into the Volvo system and the vehicle would have started braking approximately one second before impact.

BUT... the Volvo system uses a much better camera than Uber was apparently using. Aptiv and Intel have been kind to Uber and not discussed how many seconds sooner their standard camera and chipset would have reacted but most people who are analyzing it say the accident never would have occurred with the Intel/Aptiv system on, that was already in the vehicle.

The system on board the Volvo has been deployed and working since 2014. It’s not new.

To add insult to inury, numerous amateur investigators have now driven the exact same stretch of road and filmed it with awful cell phone cameras and sensors that are ancient, and some with more modern cameras.

The consensus? There literally was no “dark shadow” hiding the pedestrian at all. There’s plenty of ambient light for even a many year old cell phone camera to see between cars, and well past the curb into the grass.

It would appear. That Uber’s camera is a POS.

Which doesn’t matter anyway. Again, their system had a LIDAR on board.

But people are still judging the accident by the footage from their absolutely POS camera. In fact many are now speculating that they used this crappy camera in case they did have an accident. The footage would look to most drivers like the accident was “unavoidable” in the eyes of a horrid camera. Why not let it stay awful, then? A number of cell phones have handily beaten this camera now.

Footage of the Intel system detecting the object, and the same system detecting multiple things to track and showing the tracking of all of them properly in day and night conditions, the system already working since 2014 in the Volvo model used, published now also.

The more investigation that goes into this, the worse it looks for Uber. Which, considering their screw-employees business model and documented sub-par behavior of their so-called leadership that’s been in the news, is starting to look less and less like an accident and more and more like negligence.

Turning off the safety system on the Volvo to keep it from interfering with their system is reasonable, but not if their system couldn’t already perform in the lab BETTER than a system deployed and working since 2014.

They’d have been better off leaving it enabled and having their system drive and not handle safety or better, a combination of the two, with any triggering of the already on board Intel/Activ built system considered a severe failure of their system.

Whole Intel system is one bit fat chip and a camera with high speed data busses directly connected to the camera, processing objects at some crazy high rate, I forget now.

Nothing but a board with a camera mounted on top of it. Fully baked and working for three years now.

Uber must know by now what a great break the Police Chief gave them in giving them a pass from looking at their crappy footage from their crappy camera and applying only the knowledge that a driver wouldn’t see that pedestrian.

No acknowledgement of LIDAR that surely saw her, or even using cheap/better cameras in old cell phones that easily showed the whole street and well beyond odd of the road.

Nice discussion about learning systems and testing cycles and all that, but Uber disabled a better safety system and substituted their own far inferior one.

Interestingly the press is covering it as being about Uber disabling it. But reporters these days really don’t seem to get that part about Intel’s product likely making this accident, at worst, just some bumps and bruises for the pedestrian.

Oh yeah. Did I mention this is version 3 of Intel’s product in this Volvo. Version 2 was sold from 2010-2014. It likely also would have avoided the accident.

In other words. The system that could and should have stopped this car, was available 8 years ago.
 
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If Lyft had the same ability to share family member billing as Uber does, I’d never use Uber. What a bunch of jerks running that company. Their corporate culture is toxic and will take a long time to fix.

Cheers
 
The technology is progressing incredibly fast.

I downloaded a new neural net for my car's autopilot yesterday. HUGE improvement.

It no longer drives link a drunk 14 year old. It now drives like a sober 14 year old...
 
If Lyft had the same ability to share family member billing as Uber does, I’d never use Uber. What a bunch of jerks running that company. Their corporate culture is toxic and will take a long time to fix.

Cheers

This assumes they want to fix it. :)
 
So while y’all have been debating whether or not the engineers can get it right...

Intel and Aptiv came out with news that the Volvo Uber was using had the Volvo safety collision avoidance system on board.

And it had been disabled.

And Intel took the grainy crappy footage provided by Uber from the visible light camera and fed it into the Volvo system and the vehicle would have started braking approximately one second before impact.

BUT... the Volvo system uses a much better camera than Uber was apparently using. Aptiv and Intel have been kind to Uber and not discussed how many seconds sooner their standard camera and chipset would have reacted but most people who are analyzing it say the accident never would have occurred with the Intel/Aptiv system on, that was already in the vehicle.

The system on board the Volvo has been deployed and working since 2014. It’s not new.

To add insult to inury, numerous amateur investigators have now driven the exact same stretch of road and filmed it with awful cell phone cameras and sensors that are ancient, and some with more modern cameras.

The consensus? There literally was no “dark shadow” hiding the pedestrian at all. There’s plenty of ambient light for even a many year old cell phone camera to see between cars, and well past the curb into the grass.

It would appear. That Uber’s camera is a POS.

Which doesn’t matter anyway. Again, their system had a LIDAR on board.

But people are still judging the accident by the footage from their absolutely POS camera. In fact many are now speculating that they used this crappy camera in case they did have an accident. The footage would look to most drivers like the accident was “unavoidable” in the eyes of a horrid camera. Why not let it stay awful, then? A number of cell phones have handily beaten this camera now.

Footage of the Intel system detecting the object, and the same system detecting multiple things to track and showing the tracking of all of them properly in day and night conditions, the system already working since 2014 in the Volvo model used, published now also.

The more investigation that goes into this, the worse it looks for Uber. Which, considering their screw-employees business model and documented sub-par behavior of their so-called leadership that’s been in the news, is starting to look less and less like an accident and more and more like negligence.

Turning off the safety system on the Volvo to keep it from interfering with their system is reasonable, but not if their system couldn’t already perform in the lab BETTER than a system deployed and working since 2014.

They’d have been better off leaving it enabled and having their system drive and not handle safety or better, a combination of the two, with any triggering of the already on board Intel/Activ built system considered a severe failure of their system.

Whole Intel system is one bit fat chip and a camera with high speed data busses directly connected to the camera, processing objects at some crazy high rate, I forget now.

Nothing but a board with a camera mounted on top of it. Fully baked and working for three years now.

Uber must know by now what a great break the Police Chief gave them in giving them a pass from looking at their crappy footage from their crappy camera and applying only the knowledge that a driver wouldn’t see that pedestrian.

No acknowledgement of LIDAR that surely saw her, or even using cheap/better cameras in old cell phones that easily showed the whole street and well beyond odd of the road.

Nice discussion about learning systems and testing cycles and all that, but Uber disabled a better safety system and substituted their own far inferior one.

Interestingly the press is covering it as being about Uber disabling it. But reporters these days really don’t seem to get that part about Intel’s product likely making this accident, at worst, just some bumps and bruises for the pedestrian.

Oh yeah. Did I mention this is version 3 of Intel’s product in this Volvo. Version 2 was sold from 2010-2014. It likely also would have avoided the accident.

In other words. The system that could and should have stopped this car, was available 8 years ago.

Whoo boy. Just,,,,, wow. Incredible. This, to me, is getting into the realm of criminal incompetence.


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Whoo boy. Just,,,,, wow. Incredible. This, to me, is getting into the realm of criminal incompetence.


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Idiot Police Chief already killed that. He’s not going to press any charges now unless he can do it quietly. And he can’t. He gave them a pass on day one in front of the cameras.

It’ll be a Civil suit if any family pushes it and it’ll be a big quiet sealed away from public view, payoff.
 
By the way, it was said earlier in the thread that there was only one death, but there was also the one where the human driver was killed. Is there any reason why that shouldn't also be counted?
 
Idiot Police Chief already killed that. He’s not going to press any charges now unless he can do it quietly. And he can’t. He gave them a pass on day one in front of the cameras.

It’ll be a Civil suit if any family pushes it and it’ll be a big quiet sealed away from public view, payoff.

Isn't the DA the one that files charges, not the PD?

I don't think Uber is in the clear yet on criminal charges. The driver, if he's the one that disabled any safety features, might be in more trouble too.

The civil suit will be expensive.
 
Idiot Police Chief already killed that. He’s not going to press any charges now unless he can do it quietly. And he can’t. He gave them a pass on day one in front of the cameras.

It’ll be a Civil suit if any family pushes it and it’ll be a big quiet sealed away from public view, payoff.

I agree that the police chief is a moron.

However, the police don’t get to make the decision regarding whether or not to press charges. That is up to the prosecuters. There are several who potentially can make the charge.

The local DA and State attorney general can file charges. And I would suspect the feds could find a way also.

All this, of course, presumes that they want to. The point is, though, that the police don’t get to make the decision.

And you are right, I see a BIG civil penalty for the victim’s family...


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By the way, it was said earlier in the thread that there was only one death, but there was also the one where the human driver was killed. Is there any reason why that shouldn't also be counted?

I was the one doing the math, and I decided not to count the Tesla victim in the calculations. for this reason: I don’t know how many fully autonomous miles the Tesla cars drive. That blurs the math a bit.

However, in general, you’re right. We know that the Tesla victim died as a result of the automation failing to do the right thing.




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...I don't think Uber is in the clear yet on criminal charges. The driver, if he's the one that disabled any safety features, might be in more trouble too....
The video shows the guy in the driver's seat spending more time looking inside the car than out the windshield. I would think that that would be a big liability for him.
 
The video shows the guy in the driver's seat spending more time looking inside the car than out the windshield. I would think that that would be a big liability for him.
I think I've seen this on TV:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is the real victim here. He was put into a robot car that was supposed to drive by itself and avoid accidents. As the video clearly shows, my client was monitoring the vehicle systems, risking his life by relying on the millions of dollars of technology and research that was guiding the vehicle. Had my client known the vehicle would not stop in time, he would have performed an emergency maneuver and prevented this terrible accident but his instructions from his employer were to let the car do the driving."
 
I think I've seen this on TV:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is the real victim here. He was put into a robot car that was supposed to drive by itself and avoid accidents. As the video clearly shows, my client was monitoring the vehicle systems, risking his life by relying on the millions of dollars of technology and research that was guiding the vehicle. Had my client known the vehicle would not stop in time, he would have performed an emergency maneuver and prevented this terrible accident but his instructions from his employer were to let the car do the driving."
I think TV is the ONLY place you would have seen that!
 
OK, I'll play the prosecutor.

"Ladies and gentlemen, do any of you own or use a computer, smart phone or tablet? All of you? And have you ever experienced those devices doing the things that they were designed to do poorly? All of you? OK. How about billing errors? Smart devices, TVs, that sort of thing -- do they ever inexplicably just fail to function as they were designed to do? Now, would a reasonable person expect that a computer, any computer, should be trusted with the safety of human life, without a human being able and prepared to take over and do in a split second what the computer failed to do?"
 
Are prosecutors allowed to ask questions of the jury after jury selection is complete?
 
Isn't the DA the one that files charges, not the PD?

I don't think Uber is in the clear yet on criminal charges. The driver, if he's the one that disabled any safety features, might be in more trouble too.

The civil suit will be expensive.

True. We shall see.

The driver didn’t disable the safety feature built into the vehicle. The Uber engineers did. That’s why Intel and Activ jumped as hard as they did on announcing that their system may have lessened the accident or even stopped it completely. They wanted a very big distance between them and Uber.

Wouldn’t be surprised if auto makers also start making anyone doing this sort of testing sign documents that they’re disabling on board safety systems, just as a CYA.

Volvo will be named in the suit and if it ever makes it to court they’ll testify with Intel’s help that their safety system was disabled.

How Volvo and Intel found out is currently unknown but it shows someone found out and leaked it to them. I’m sure Uber didn’t call them up and tell them. And if Volvo called Uber and asked, and Uber’s attorney hadn’t already told the entire company that all inquired about the accident go through their office... well... who knows.

But it shows Uber has serious information leak problems at best, and at worst their staff is blabbing to other companies about things. Probably to save their own butts, they think.

People talk. But if you’re talking outside of your company about things you know about an accident that resulted in death without the company attorney involved... that’s bad.
 
They must have backed up a dump truck full of cash and said, "Sign here."
 

Nope. I’ve said for s long time these “closed” deals hide the true costs and risks of s lot of things from the public.

I also chuckled that even in this article about it, even Nvidia jumped on the bandwagon of “They’re doing their own thing and weren’t using OUR stuff!” just like Intel did with the on-board system. These companies don’t want to be anywhere near Uber for fear the stench might rub off on them.

Meanwhile, I hope the husband and daughter got enough to change their family lifestyle forever. They probably didn’t, but I hope they did. Losing someone to that much incompetence wasn’t an accident.
 
The technology is progressing incredibly fast.

I downloaded a new neural net for my car's autopilot yesterday. HUGE improvement.

It no longer drives link a drunk 14 year old. It now drives like a sober 14 year old...


If the programmer was drunk while writing the self-driving code, can he be charged with DUI? And if so, would that be one count for every car his code was in?
 
If the programmer was drunk while writing the self-driving code, can he be charged with DUI? And if so, would that be one count for every car his code was in?
One count for every time every car his code was in was driven.
 
I agree that the police chief is a moron.

However, the police don’t get to make the decision regarding whether or not to press charges. That is up to the prosecuters. There are several who potentially can make the charge.

The local DA and State attorney general can file charges. And I would suspect the feds could find a way also.

All this, of course, presumes that they want to. The point is, though, that the police don’t get to make the decision.

And you are right, I see a BIG civil penalty for the victim’s family...


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I think the PD could keep it from making it to the DA at all. I don't think a DA can file charges unless the PD passes them a case with evidence.

But I don't really know for sure.
 
Hi.
Another state, CA, will not allow them to test, none should allow them to test on the streets until they prove that they know what they are doing.
I am not sure why Intel, and couple of other electronic manufacturers allowed their names to be associat3ed with this bunch, but they should also be held responsible, they knew better, maybe not.
I hope the case gets looked into by some other agencies, they should not be allowed to get away with just paying money. Individuals involved should be charged with a crime.
 
I think the PD could keep it from making it to the DA at all. I don't think a DA can file charges unless the PD passes them a case with evidence.

But I don't really know for sure.

No. A prosecutor has wide discretion regarding whether or not to file charges and what charges to file. Not to take things into the political realm, but consider special prosecutor Mueller. He has gotten numerous indictments and several guilty pleas. These cases did not start with the police. While the police are useful to a prosecutor and can bring cases to a prosecutor’s attention, they are not a gate which can prevent a prosecutor from investigating and getting a grand jury to return indictments if the prosecutor wishes.

Note. I’m not a lawyer or involved with the legal profession. I do come from a family of lawyers (my Grandfather was appointed as the chief defense counsel for the first Dachau war crimes trials, and that after fighting his way across Europe as Lt. Col in the artillery), and I’ve always been fairly interested in the practice of law.

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No. A prosecutor has wide discretion regarding whether or not to file charges and what charges to file. Not to take things into the political realm, but consider the special prosecutor Mueller. He has gotten numerous indictments and several guilty pleas. These cases did not start with the police. While the police are useful to a prosecutor and can bring cases to a prosecutor’s attention, they are not a gate which can prevent a prosecutor from investigating and getting a grand jury to return indictments.


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I recall the old saying a DA can get an indictment against a ham sandwich.

Cheers
 
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