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MIFlyer

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MIFlyer
I knew that when i decided to pursue my PPL, that getting my wife on board was going to be key.

She's afraid of small planes and, like many in the general public, sees way to many accident stories, and not nearly enough "what a fun weekend we just had thanks to GA" stories.

I booked us a 2 hour discovery flight in an SR20 and flew us to some of her favorite places. We live near Seattle, where there are tremendously cool things to do that are 5 hours by car and 45 minutes by air to get to, so it opened her eyes to the opportunity for our family to see/do/experience things that we otherwise would not be able to.

I've got 1.6 hrs in the log book now and am continuing on the free/cheap things I can do before we make the family decision for me to get my PPL.

I'm reading stick and rudder and Rob Mochado's book. Getting ready for the medical, etc.

My plan is to do ground school this spring, and then begin flying in April 2016 and try to complete it in 2-3 months by flying 2-3x per week.

Any thoughts?

PS, not having anything to compare it to, i'll stick my neck out with some VERY green comments/observations.

1. plane was very nice, and flew well, but was fast and sensitive for a new guy with zero hours in. Instructor said I did a good job for my first time (didn't overcontrol the plane), but personally, I was hoping to have it come more naturally, especially maintaining altitude while doing coordinated turns and scanning for traffic in a busy Bravo airspace on a sunny Saturday.

2. ADSB rocks. Again, I'm an FNG, and I understand that in VFR, i am responsible for visually seeing the traffic on my own, but I have to tell you that with the sheer number of rotor and fixed wing traffic that was out there, it was incredibly helpful to supplement my scanning with a glance at the screen to see if there were any I missed. I understand in some airspaces this may be dumb or not needed, but i generally had 10-20 other aircraft on screen at a time...

3. Autopilot rocks. Again, i'm there to fly the plane, but boy did it reduce my workload when we flipped on the AP for a few minutes so I could focus more on looking outside and not worry about altitude or heading.

I plan to fly cross country with family and friends (1-4 hour trips each way) after I get my PPL, so recognize that in addition to being very, very, very, very inexperienced, my mission is different than many.

I've ready thousands of posts on this site and am already learning a lot of things to consider/think about/talk to CFI about. Thank you all for your many contributions.
 
You'll find that all that becomes less of an issue in visual conditions, with experience.

A well trimmed aircraft flies very much like it's on autopilot. And when it doesn't, it tells you what the air is doing. When I was transitioning to glass in a 182, one time, I forgot to turn the autopilot on (I turned on the flight director instead). I was wondering why it was having 40 foot altitude excursions. It was a really nice stable evening with no wind, just after sunset.

Flying well is not natural. There is a reason why it takes a minimum of 40 hours. And at the end of it, you'll still have improvements you can make -- a private pilot license means you can fly consistently safely, not necessarily smoothly or precisely. You can fly like crap a whole lot faster.
 
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Thanks MAKG. I appreciate your (and anyone else's) inputs into my amateur opinions and my plan of attack.

Specifically, I want to note that I wasn't trying to come off as a know it all with my comments about ADSB and autopilot, as i get that there are very heated opinions on both sides of those issues, but that as a beginner, I found those features helpful in getting acclimated to the act of flying an airplane, particularly in a busy airspace.

I'll most definitely train in a slower plane (likely a 162 or 172 based on what the schools here have on the ramp) which will give me more time to properly execute maneuvers and not have the plane get ahead of me as easily.

I could also see flying out 30 minutes to a small, untowered field to do T/O and landing practice where you could get a lot of reps in per hour and have less of your mental time tracking all the other AC in the area.

On planes, I really liked the Cirrus. It was comfortable, fast and well appointed. I'm interested to fly in a 172 (both glass and 6 pack versions) as well as try some piper products. I think if I ever bought something, it'd likely be a Cherokee 6 or similar, but that's down the road.
 
Well, I'd suggest waiting for later (at least post solo, maybe post check ride) for glass. They fly the same, except the glass and supporting equipment weighs as much as a small adult. Well, I guess they remove equivalent weight from your wallet….

I still use glass only when I have to. My platform of choice outside high mountains is an older 172 with no autopilot and a newer engine. That config can haul 1000+ lb (full fuel is 240). A newer glass 172SP is under 800 lb, and you can't fit three adults in there unless they are very small or you fly with reduced fuel (often difficult on a rental).
 
Thanks. Post PPL, my main mission would be Wife and I (370lbs total) and two little kids (40lb ea). A 172 could fit mission requirements in that case, or a PA-28, which seem to run a little cheaper.

If i went this route, i'd want to get one that could MOGAS STC until the dust settles on the 100LL issue.

If i get a 6 or cirrus, the mogas is off the table.

I am trying to decide where to get my lessons

1. Rainier Flight Services (great org, very busy, online scheduling for planes and instructors (which would help me tremendously))
2. Boeing Employees flight association. Huge fleet, super well maintained, small buy in, lower rates and runs on tach time.
3. small flying club (small club with 60 members and 3 planes (two 172s and a 182), reasonable monthly fees and rates

These are all based at the same field (KRNT). I'm weighing pros and cons to each, as I want to pick a horse and ride it through and past my PPL checkride.
 
It won't be that long before those two 40 lb kids are 140 lb. But then, you can transition.

What 100LL issue? MOGAS STC's are next to useless because you can hardly find MOGAS at any airport. You'll have to haul it yourself.

As a renter, consider conditions now in your decision. There is always some controversy going on. You don't know what's going to happen in 5 years, and you really don't care.

I went through the same thoughts about PA28s. They are considerably easier to find available when they exist on the line, which is a big deal. They are also more pilot friendly than Cessnas -- MUCH easier to see out of in a turn, for instance. But I find I put the family in Cessnas a lot more for several reasons -- two doors, easier to keep cool in summer (even in Washington), better view of the ground for sightseeing, windows that open, easier to find on vacation, nice shade for preflight, nice access to tiedowns, etc. The downside is you have to climb the wing (or a stepladder) to fuel or check the tanks.

But you can transition, post-checkride. It's not a hard one at all. Either you have to remember to switch tanks or you have to remember carb heat, depending on which direction you go.
 
Welcome to flying. My only thought when reading is why seperate ground school with flight school? I think doing them at the same time is more traditional and better. Also, 2x to 3x times a week is an aggressive time table. Weather, plane issues, scheduling issue etc... Will come up. It is true though that when learning, the closer each flight is the better.

The best advice I can give is, get great training and don't rush it. Once you are on your own,( after checkride) you'll be thankful you got great training as your and your families life depends on it!
 
jspilot said:
Welcome to flying. My only thought when reading is why seperate ground school with flight school? I think doing them at the same time is more traditional and better. Also, 2x to 3x times a week is an aggressive time table. Weather, plane issues, scheduling issue etc... Will come up. It is true though that when learning, the closer each flight is the better.

The best advice I can give is, get great training and don't rush it. Once you are on your own,( after checkride) you'll be thankful you got great training as your and your families life depends on it!
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Thanks. My thought was that with a busy job, two small kids at home, etc, that if i could handle ground school as self study after bed time, then the only time i'd be asking my wife to "handle" the kids by herself would be while i'm actually taking flying lessons. I thought of doing the ground school and administrative stuff in the winter time, and then when the weather turns decent next spring, i'd dive into actual plane time.

The other way I could do it would be to try to get to solo this summer (we're in seattle so after sept/oct VFR becomes a real crapshoot), try to keep a little currency over the winter (1x/mo?) and then finish it next spring. Do you think i'd have better luck absorbing the material and ingraining the technique that way? Have you seen a method that seems to work best for those that are shoehorning their flying time in? Would LOVE any ideas/thoughts on this. :)
 
Well, keep in mind that there is a fair amount of primary flight training you can do under a 1500 foot overcast. It depends on what you're doing.

And there is the option of driving over the pass to the east for better weather.

Just remember, no plan survives engagement with the enemy. Weather doesn't do what you want it to do, what it's expected to do, or even what's "normal." Heck, we just had summer thunderstorms in Monterey a few days ago, and there was flooding further south. It's been East-Coast humid. This "doesn't happen." And airplanes (and pilots) break.
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks. My thought was that with a busy job, two small kids at home, etc, that if i could handle ground school as self study after bed time, then the only time i'd be asking my wife to "handle" the kids by herself would be while i'm actually taking flying lessons. I thought of doing the ground school and administrative stuff in the winter time, and then when the weather turns decent next spring, i'd dive into actual plane time.

The other way I could do it would be to try to get to solo this summer (we're in seattle so after sept/oct VFR becomes a real crapshoot), try to keep a little currency over the winter (1x/mo?) and then finish it next spring. Do you think i'd have better luck absorbing the material and ingraining the technique that way? Have you seen a method that seems to work best for those that are shoehorning their flying time in? Would LOVE any ideas/thoughts on this. :)
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I'd go the flying and ground school this summer route. You will lose whatever you don't use so doing ground school 6 months before you may fly is kind of silly. You will have to learn a lot of the material over again.

Given your location, fly when the weather is good ( i.e) summer. Don't plan on flying often when the weather is tough unless you have unlimited availability( like everyday) It's so hard to make weather align with your intentions!

What I did was fly 2 to 3 times a week training over the summer- I am a teacher so it worked great. Then I went to once a week in the fall- winter. I was ready for my checkride in January after starting in June, basically 6 months and had 60 something hours when I took the ride and passed first time. From experience, this works.
 
jspilot said:
I'd go the flying and ground school this summer route. You will lose whatever you don't use so doing ground school 6 months before you may fly is kind of silly. You will have to learn a lot of the material over again.

Given your location, fly when the weather is good ( i.e) summer. Don't plan on flying often when the weather is tough unless you have unlimited availability( like everyday) It's so hard to make weather align with your intentions!

What I did was fly 2 to 3 times a week training over the summer- I am a teacher so it worked great. Then I went to once a week in the fall- winter. I was ready for my checkride in January after starting in June, basically 6 months and had 60 something hours when I took the ride and passed first time. From experience, this works.
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Thanks, great ideas!
 
Hmm. So, in my hundreds of hours of reading, I've been pretty convinced that my eventual plan would be to have a share in a hauler, like a Cherokee 6, so I can actually take the family plus friends, over the years to go places.

Was just looking and my local airport has a share in a low time 6 for 20K!

Doing the math, it seems like it would be cheaper to actually do my training (if OK with the existing partners) in my own 6 versus paying rental rate on a 172. It would also mean that by the time i was taking anyone anywhere, i'd have 50+ hours not just flying, but in the exact airplane that i'd be taking people up in.

Thoughts? How hard would primary flight training be in a 6/300 versus a 172? I understand the costs (which would be CHEAPER flying a 6 that i own versus renting), but would love opinions from pilots who've flown them on how hard would it be to learn to fly in a 6.
 
The only ways I could see that working would be if the 172 rental rates are outrageous, or if the Cherokee rates are missing something, like engine reserve or fuel (watch out for "dry" rates -- common on partnerships, not common on rentals).
 
MAKG1 said:
The only ways I could see that working would be if the 172 rental rates are outrageous, or if the Cherokee rates are missing something, like engine reserve or fuel (watch out for "dry" rates -- common on partnerships, not common on rentals).
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Hi, 172 here runs 120/hr wet (HOBBS). OR, you can join a club, pay $100/month and get it for 100/hr wet (Tach)

the six would run 12 gal/hr (call that $60) plus some reserve for OH ($20?) plus some monthly expense to cover annuals, hangar, insurance/etc. ($200? in a 4 way partnership)

Assumes:
Hangar 450/m
Insurance 3K/yr
Annuals 2K/yr
=10k/year plus any other maint/upgrades that come along

so about $200/m/partner plus your flying cost of $80/hr

So if you flew 50 hours in 1 year

Partnership dues = 2400
Flight cost = 80*50 = 4,000
Ownership = 6,400/year

Renting 172 in a club
Monthly club dues = 1,200/yr
Flight cost = 50*100 = 5,000
172 through club = $6,200/yr

Renting 172, no club
Flight cost = 50*120 = 6,200

So you wouldn't "save" money, until you wanted to do a weekend trip. then both the clubs and rental people are going to want a 5-10 hour minimum charge for the trip (call it 500-1,000) versus as an owner, if plane is available, you'd pay 80/yr*3 hours (1.5 hours each way) = 240

If you do that even twice a year, owning starts to look nice.

I wonder how hard it would be to learn to fly in a bigger plane like that. You'd do your training empty (fuel plus instructor and pilot, but no passengers), so you'd be 800lbs under gross. I have heard they are a little more to handle loaded to the gills, but for training, you'd be flying pretty light.
 
I do understand there'd also be "risks"

1. partner has plane booked when you want it
2. plane is down for maint
3. unexpected expense pops up. Not my problem in a rental, but 1/4 my problem in an ownership group
 
I have yet to pay a "minimum." They get waived all the time.

The club I'm in now has a 25% booked time minimum, but never actually charges anyone, and they are quite up-front about that. I suspect no one knows how to modify the scheduler (it's a huge POS). It might be there in case of really bad abuse, like booking a popular aircraft for a month and flying it for two hours. But no one really goes out for more than a week at a time, and it's usually a weekend.
 
cool, good to know. One flight club at least credits your unused cross country hours towards later local flights.

so if you take it for three days over the weekend and have 8 minimum hours, but only put 3 on the tach, the 5 hours go as a flying credit that you can use for day trips in the future.
 
Congratulations on getting started.

I vote for not overthinking the order of things. In general, judiciously sift the advice on this board through your own BS filter - but then we all do that consciously or not. Don't feel obligated to have the test done before beginning to fly. I flew while learning and I have no idea if that was the most efficient way and it didn't matter. I finished in 54 hours over 1.5 years so whatevs.

But overall, just have fun and hang in there. :D
 
petrolero said:
Congratulations on getting started.

I vote for not overthinking the order of things. In general, judiciously sift the advice on this board through your own BS filter - but then we all do that consciously or not. Don't feel obligated to have the test done before beginning to fly. I flew while learning and I have no idea if that was the most efficient way and it didn't matter. I finished in 54 hours over 1.5 years so whatevs.

But overall, just have fun and hang in there. :D
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Thanks for the encouragement and advice!
 
There are a number of options, and you just will have to parse the information available to you and make the best decision for your personal needs.

Depending on the age of your kids, you might be better off economically looking short-term at a 180HP 172. It's a great training plane, and you can haul your family in it, so long as the kids are small. As MAKG suggested, look for the steam gauges, not glass. It'll get you through PPL training, and if you are living in the NW permanently, you probably want your IR as well. The 172s hold their value pretty well, and after three or four years you could probably sell it without much (if any) of a loss. The only downside, is I would not load 4 full grown adults in that plane.

Something else to consider, as you go through training and get your ticket, you will realize what a great responsibility being PIC is. It's been a year since I got my ticket, and I'm at around 120 hours, but I still have not carried more than one passenger at a time. I just don't quite yet have the comfort level of stuffing my wife and two daughters into the plane. Others may be different, but that is my personal experience.

Your training plan sounds fine. I'm also a teacher like jspilot above, and during the work months sometimes skipped up to three months at a time. I did a lot of self-study at home, worked on the simulator, and audio-recorded flights with my cfi to help remember all of the stuff he said.

I would say "have fun", but it's actually a lot of work. After every training flight I felt exhausted. There is just so much info packed into a short period of time. After you get your ticket you will have a blast though!
 
Your 12 GPH on a Six is optimistic, I use a Saratoga and on a good day does 13 to 14 GPH. Plus I will warn you getting insured in a six as opposed to a 172 is much harder esp low hours. Something that is not considered a trainer (ei a six), it is unlikely you can get insured right out of the gate.
 
As far as learning in a 6, I have flown one some, and they are, in my opinion, as easy to fly as a C172.
 
somorris said:
As far as learning in a 6, I have flown one some, and they are, in my opinion, as easy to fly as a C172.
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Thanks Somorris. I appreciate the knowledge. I've got a guy at work who used to (and may still) have a 6 or Toga and I'm trying to talk him into a ride.
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks Somorris. I appreciate the knowledge. I've got a guy at work who used to (and may still) have a 6 or Toga and I'm trying to talk him into a ride.
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Do not get me wrong I love the Toga I have access too, but the insurance company is being a pain about it. Granted I am low time at 75 hours, and the plane in question is the retract version.
 
So i talked to them, group runs 100/mo and 100/hr dry plus fuel

so i'd be paying 100/mo plus say 175 (fuel plus sinking fund).

Comparing that to paying 100/mo to be in a club, plus 100/hr for a 172.

i guess it really comes down to if i want to pay the extra 75/hr while training, but have the advantages of ownership, which would pay off on cross countries and on the fact that I'd learn in the plane i'd do all my flying in after my check ride, so I"d be safter due to more time in the specific aircraft.

Ideally, i'd find a 3 way in a PA-28 with good payload, but that seems to be super scarce.
 
100 a month in dues is steep. I pay 500 a year for my club and get 133 an hour wet to fly a 172P with a basic panel. This is in New York mind you so these rates are low for this area. To fork over 1200 a year just to be in the club better mean they have fantastic airplanes!
 
jspilot said:
100 a month in dues is steep. I pay 500 a year for my club and get 133 an hour wet to fly a 172P with a basic panel. This is in New York mind you so these rates are low for this area. To fork over 1200 a year just to be in the club better mean they have fantastic airplanes!
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sorry, it's not a club, it's an ownership group. just one airplane, but a very nice one
 
A no buy in club around here charges $45 per month dues, The 95 wet for a 152, 118 for a 172, and 125 for a PA28. Or in that ballpark, been awhile since I looked at the actual numbers.
 
MIFlyer said:
sorry, it's not a club, it's an ownership group. just one airplane, but a very nice one
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Sounds nice. I'd ask about how many in the group fly the plane actively. Ive heard of groups of 10 in which only 2 or 3 actually fly but I would imagine if all 10 fly then it's tough to get the plane when you may want it.
 
jspilot said:
100 a month in dues is steep. I pay 500 a year for my club and get 133 an hour wet to fly a 172P with a basic panel. This is in New York mind you so these rates are low for this area. To fork over 1200 a year just to be in the club better mean they have fantastic airplanes!
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Depends on the hourly. I paid a bit more than that, but was paying only $21 hourly for a 172, dry.

Unfortunately they changed their pricing. They now want $500 for the year, and $68 dry. It's a huge increase. And moreover, encourages pilots to fly LESS. I would much rather have a large annual fee, with a low hourly.

Or a partnership, which is what I will be looking into.
 
well, good news. the wife is interested in me becoming a pilot now that she sees the chances for a cabin or something later on an air and sea access only island.

so, starting ppl training in 2 weeks! I'll see how much i can get done before the weather turns (looking for 3 flights a week if I can make it work, probably will average two). hoping that 3-4 hours/week of flight gets me to solo fairly quickly so i can start building hours and practice towards checkride.
 
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