First Annual.

Tom-D said:
It absolutely amasses me that any one would have a pre-buy completed and not know every thing that is wrong with their aircraft, even after flying it a year.

What good is a pre-buy if it isn't good enough to tell you that?
Wouldn't you know if you broke some thing?
Don't you keep track of high time items?
Don't you get things fixed as they occur?


I can't help wondering why any annual should be a surprise?
Or why any owner will drop their aircraft off and give the shop permission to rape their wallot.
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Sorry Tom, but you need an attitude adjustment here. We're not all mechanics, and many of the items that get serviced or replaced in an annual are things that we can't see and aren't allowed to work on.
 
Tom-D said:
It absolutely amasses me that any one would have a pre-buy completed and not know every thing that is wrong with their aircraft, even after flying it a year.
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Do you completely disassemble an aircraft and reassemble it for a prebuy? If so, your prebuys are probably excessively overpriced, and I'm not interested.

What good is a pre-buy if it isn't good enough to tell you that?
Wouldn't you know if you broke some thing?
Don't you keep track of high time items?
Don't you get things fixed as they occur?
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So you know everything that breaks at all times? I find that hard to believe. Even those of us with a good mechanical sense may not notice certain items. Some things just aren't obvious by sound. To me, a prebuy looks for a lot of the glaring items, and then also the ones that are slightly less glaring. Like a good annual, which is what we're talking about here. Even a good annual may miss a couple of little items. These planes are old, they're not perfect. Even the new ones aren't perfect.

I can't help wondering why any annual should be a surprise?
Or why any owner will drop their aircraft off and give the shop permission to rape their wallot.
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I agree that you should never drop the plane off and let the shop just spend your money. Any shop that does that doesn't get paid by me, and doesn't get repeat business. I find it hard to believe that you've never been surprised. It's kinda like the person who doesn't drop a motorcycle in his or her first six months of riding. It generally means that person is either not riding, or lying.
 
Of course, the other thing that factors in is the attitude of the person doing the annual. Right after my little Cessna 150 got out of annual I happened to show it to a different mechanic. He looked it over and claimed it would need at least $7K worth of work to get by him in an annual inspection. Different mechanics see things differently, as they should. It is their name on the logbook, so they should satisfy themselves that all is well. So if one guy did the prebuy, but another did the inspection, things that appeared serviceable to the prebuy mechanic might be unairworthy to the annual mechanic.
 
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Also true. So far I've noticed that many mechanics think that every other mechanic that they don't work with is an idiot, and that the ones who say lots of things are wrong with your airplane are just trying to make more money off of you.
 
steingar said:
Of course, the other thing that factors in is the attitude of the person doing the annual. right after my little Cessna 150 got out of annual I happened to show it to a different mechanic. He looked it over and claimed it would need at least $7K worth of work to get by him in an annual inspection. Different mechanics see things differently, as they should. It is their name on the logbook, so they should satisfy themselves that all is well. So if one guy did the prebuy, but another did the inspection, things that appeared serviceable to the prebuy mechanic might be unairworthy to the annual mechanic.
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With certified aircraft there is a known baseline on what is 'kosher' and what is not. If the second mechanic can just do a visual and claim the 7K comment then either the first one who actually signed his name on the work was naive or the second one was 3 months behind in his house payment. I can see a little discrepency but 7K ?????
 
N801BH said:
With certified aircraft there is a known baseline on what is 'kosher' and what is not. If the second mechanic can just do a visual and claim the 7K comment then either the first one who actually signed his name on the work was naive or the second one was 3 months behind in his house payment. I can see a little discrepency but 7K ?????
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Not being an A&P I can't comment intelligently. But it went through another prebuy when I sold it and came through with fling colors. The second A&P wasn't getting paid anything, the airplane was in annual. Like I said, one guy's opinion could have cost me big bucks.
 
steingar said:
Not being an A&P I can't comment intelligently. But it went through another prebuy when I sold it and came through with fling colors. The second A&P wasn't getting paid anything, the airplane was in annual. Like I said, one guy's opinion could have cost me big bucks.
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That's my point... One guys opinion and what is truly airworthy are two different things.
 
Hey!
The cost of an annual will be dependent on how you,as an owner, operate and maintain you equipment the other 364 days of the year.
Play it properly and it won't be too painful. Let me know what type of plane and I'll let you know what is COMPETENT inspection should run you!
 
steingar said:
Sorry Tom, but you need an attitude adjustment here. We're not all mechanics, and many of the items that get serviced or replaced in an annual are things that we can't see and aren't allowed to work on.
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You don't have to be a mechanic to figure out which end of the wrench gets greasy. 99% of the labor on an "annual inspection" is removing a bazillion fasteners to get to the parts that need inspection. The actual inspection is the matter of a couple of hours looking and a couple of hours writing. The rest of it is all busywork.

And there is no such thing as a busywork certificate. The attitude adjustment seems to be necessary on YOUR end.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
You don't have to be a mechanic to figure out which end of the wrench gets greasy. 99% of the labor on an "annual inspection" is removing a bazillion fasteners to get to the parts that need inspection. The actual inspection is the matter of a couple of hours looking and a couple of hours writing. The rest of it is all busywork.

And there is no such thing as a busywork certificate. The attitude adjustment seems to be necessary on YOUR end.

Jim
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Most of the cost of an annual inspection is not busy work, it's repair work - at least that's always been the case with me. Yes, the annual inspection is only $250, but I am not one for pencil whipped annuals.
 
weirdjim said:
You don't have to be a mechanic to figure out which end of the wrench gets greasy. 99% of the labor on an "annual inspection" is removing a bazillion fasteners to get to the parts that need inspection. The actual inspection is the matter of a couple of hours looking and a couple of hours writing. The rest of it is all busywork.

And there is no such thing as a busywork certificate. The attitude adjustment seems to be necessary on YOUR end.

Jim
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My annual inspection is cheap, though not $250. With all the systems on a Comanche I can't see how anyone could do it at that price and still eat. I spend a lot more money on parts and repairs. Those are things I am expressly forbidden to do by the FAA. My attitude is just fine. I own an airplane and do everything I can to make it as good as I can make it. I do not begrudge my mechanic what I pay him, he's a trained professional on whom my safety depends. But I don't need overly arrogant A&Ps telling me I'm supposed to know every bolt of a machine on which I am not allowed to wrench.
 
vontresc said:
you guys have it all wrong. Engines make annuals pricey. My Annual on my certificated glider was a mere $125 last year :)
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The most I have paid for the "condition inspection" on my 36 year old experimental glider is $75. The past couple years I have paid about $50 per inspection. Prior to that, it often just cost me an afternoon helping the mechanic on some other project he was working on.

My most expensive repair was when the Wing Skin debonded from the ribs (glued ribs) due to a water leak in the balast system. Probably cost me about $700 to remove the skin and rebond it. Did most of the work myself. I knew it needed repair and repaired it before I ever presented it to my A&P for inspection.

Last year was my second most expensive repair, I had a crack develop in the Rear Spar Carry through and had to manufacture a new one. Cost about $250.

Brian
HP16T
 
I think the $250 was on my Cherokee. But that was just a paperwork and have a look-see annual. That does not pay for the signature in the logbook. That only comes after A/W discrepancies are taken care of. Sure they aren't technically part of the annual, but the signature won't get put in the logs, and the annual will not be complete until the repairs are done and the signature is made.
 
EdFred said:
Most of the cost of an annual inspection is not busy work, it's repair work - at least that's always been the case with me. Yes, the annual inspection is only $250, but I am not one for pencil whipped annuals.
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Jim is pointing out that the annual inspection is one thing, and what many
of us owners call the "annual" is not the same thing. There are
specific items that must be accomplished in order to have an annual
inspection done. And then there are many other things that we
typically expect done concurrent with the annual inspection.

iirc, the oil change, for example, is not a required item for an annual inspection. See 43, appendix D
 
N801BH said:
With certified aircraft there is a known baseline on what is 'kosher' and what is not. If the second mechanic can just do a visual and claim the 7K comment then either the first one who actually signed his name on the work was naive or the second one was 3 months behind in his house payment. I can see a little discrepency but 7K ?????
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There is a known baseline, but there are also some mechanics who just love to replace things and spend money that's not theirs, and there are some mechanics who actually know what's acceptable and what's not.

I've known of several people who've had major dollar annuals when they took it to someone else to get a different view, or went to someone for a first time figuring it would be alright. I'll go with the behind on house payments option.
 
EdFred said:
Most of the cost of an annual inspection is not busy work, it's repair work - at least that's always been the case with me. Yes, the annual inspection is only $250, but I am not one for pencil whipped annuals.
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Repeat slowly after me ... "Annual inspection and repair work are NOT one in the same."

Do not confuse inspection and repair.

Jim
 
Bob Noel said:
iirc, the oil change, for example, is not a required item for an annual inspection. See 43, appendix D
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No, but strangely enough, repacking the wheel bearings is. That is a dirty greasy job and so long as it is DONE, the FAA couldn't care less who does it. On my plan the owner gets to jack up the wheel, remove it, remove the grease seals, pull the race out, and show it to me after (s)he has grease packed it, then reinstall with a new cotter pin. Total owner time? About two hours for three wheels. Total inspection time? About 5 minutes to look at the pack job and 5 minutes to look at the reassembly. Total cost? About a buck for grease and a new cotter pin.

Have the shop do it and there sits about $200 of the annual cost. Get the idea yet?

Jim
 
steingar said:
With all the systems on a Comanche I can't see how anyone could do it at that price and still eat. I spend a lot more money on parts and repairs. Those are things I am expressly forbidden to do by the FAA. My attitude is just fine. I own an airplane and do everything I can to make it as good as I can make it. I do not begrudge my mechanic what I pay him, he's a trained professional on whom my safety depends. But I don't need overly arrogant A&Ps telling me I'm supposed to know every bolt of a machine on which I am not allowed to wrench.
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1. PA-24 is a bent-legged machine and I don't do suck-em-up-the-gear annuals.

2. The FAA forbids you to do nothing, right from replacing a cowl screw to a full-house engine overhaul. The inspections, however, do need to be done by a certificated person.

3. Don't know every bolt on your machine? I'd suggest a read of Richard Bach's "Found at Pharisee".

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
No, but strangely enough, repacking the wheel bearings is. That is a dirty greasy job and so long as it is DONE, the FAA couldn't care less who does it. On my plan the owner gets to jack up the wheel, remove it, remove the grease seals, pull the race out, and show it to me after (s)he has grease packed it, then reinstall with a new cotter pin.

Jim
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So how can you inspect the condition of the bearings after it's been packed with grease?

And repacking the bearings with grease is not a requirement although to properly inspect the bearings you would have to clean away the grease.

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspection

(e)(7) Wheels—for cracks, defects, and condition of bearings.
 
weirdjim said:
Repeat slowly after me ... "Annual inspection and repair work are NOT one in the same."

Do not confuse inspection and repair.

Jim
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So you will sign off the annual inspection before the necessary repair work is completed? Sweet.
 
Yep. At the end of the inspection guide is a signature page, showing that the procedures have been completed. When the inspection is completed, we'll happily sign the form as having been done, hand you the squawk list and return your airplane to you.

What you do with it after that is up to you, since you as the owner are responsible for its maintenance. If you think you might want to fly it, you will probably want to address the items on the squawk list with us or somebody else who is qualified to work on the plane. If not, you can put it on display, lock it in your hangar, or a number of other options that are omitted due to forum obscenity rules.

Have a nice day. :lol:



EdFred said:
So you will sign off the annual inspection before the necessary repair work is completed? Sweet.
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EdFred said:
So you will sign off the annual inspection before the necessary repair work is completed? Sweet.
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Oh, come on, Ed. You know the answer to that. He can't sign off the annual until the required repair work is done, but that does not mean the repair work is is part of the annual. It is actually two separate issues. They may be accomplished at the same time but they ARE separate.
 
wabower said:
Yep. At the end of the inspection guide is a signature page, showing that the procedures have been completed. When the inspection is completed, we'll happily sign the form as having been done, hand you the squawk list and return your airplane to you.

What you do with it after that is up to you, since you as the owner are responsible for its maintenance. If you think you might want to fly it, you will probably want to address the items on the squawk list with us or somebody else who is qualified to work on the plane. If not, you can put it on display, lock it in your hangar, or a number of other options that are omitted due to forum obscenity rules.

Have a nice day. :lol:
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"...airworthy condition..."

I'm sure that's going to be signed in the logbooks when it isn't.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Oh, come on, Ed. You know the answer to that. He can't sign off the annual until the required repair work is done, but that does not mean the repair work is is part of the annual. It is actually two separate issues. They may be accomplished at the same time but they ARE separate.
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Annual isn't complete until the books are signed. I may need to draw a venn diagram. :arf:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Oh, come on, Ed. You know the answer to that. He can't sign off the annual until the required repair work is done, but that does not mean the repair work is is part of the annual. It is actually two separate issues. They may be accomplished at the same time but they ARE separate.
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Why can't he sign off the inspection before the repair work is done?

If the repair is not an airworthiness issue then the inspection sign off is simple. Sign it like you normally would. If the repair work is needed to make the plane airworthy then the sign off would note that. Either way you get the sign off.

Mike Busch talk a lot about these situations.
http://www.savvyaviator.com/

http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_63_recommended_or_required_199001-1.html

We directed the IA to sign off the annual with discrepancies, obtained a ferry permit from the local FSDO -- allowing the aircraft to be flown back to its home base -- and then had a local A&P make logbook entries clearing the "non-discrepancy discrepancy" that the IA had recorded, and approving the aircraft for return to service.
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EdFred said:
So you will sign off the annual inspection before the necessary repair work is completed? Sweet.
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Of course not IF the repair work is necessary to return the aircraft to airworthy condition. I've spent the last 50 years fixing airplanes in one way or another and I don't work on OPA any more. Inspect? Yes. Fix? No. If it needs fixing somebody else can do it.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
Of course not IF the repair work is necessary to return the aircraft to airworthy condition. I've spent the last 50 years fixing airplanes in one way or another and I don't work on OPA any more. Inspect? Yes. Fix? No. If it needs fixing somebody else can do it.

Jim
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So you are requiring repairs to get an inspection sign off? That sounds to me like you think that an 'annual' = annual inspection AND repair.
 
Who said anything about signing logbooks? We will sign off the inspection form as having been completed and give you the squawk list. If you want to play word games, we're as good at it as you are.:D

EdFred said:
"...airworthy condition..."

I'm sure that's going to be signed in the logbooks when it isn't.
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EdFred said:
How am I gonna know if there is metal being produced since the last oil change? How am I going to know if there is some corroded nut that is not visible without tearing off the tailcone? How am I going to know that there is some chafing on a wire in the wing because of x y or z? None of these are visible during a normal pre-flight.
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They should have been on the pre-buy!
 
EdFred said:
How am I gonna know if there is metal being produced since the last oil change? .
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Would it matter any less if it occurred at an oil change between annuals?

Surprise Surprise ! any engine can crap at any time, it has nothing to with the annual inspection.
 
My guess is that your not going to neeed to much in the way of repairs perhaps a couple of rivets and a little corrosion treatment but for a small area thats all. I'll say $800.
 
Inspection doesn't equal repair. Right, in some sort of fantasy land where there are a dozens of shops on each airfield. Here in the real world there is one shop at most airports that even have a mechanic, and that isn't all of them. If the aircraft has squawks, it isn't gong anywhere barring a ferry permit, since it is in unairworthy condition barring the repairs. Odds are the guy doing the fixing is the guy who inspected it in the first place.
 
EdFred said:
Most of the cost of an annual inspection is not busy work, it's repair work - at least that's always been the case with me. Yes, the annual inspection is only $250, but I am not one for pencil whipped annuals.
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It does not need to be a pencil wipped annual just because the discrepancies are not repaired at the same time.

I charge $350. to inspect your aircraft and hand you a discrepancy list. Depending upon what the discrepancies are I will sign thew annual inspection off. as airworthy or unairworthy the aircraft then complies with part 91.409

91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter;
snip

It is up to you to have the aircraft returned to service, how you do that is your responsibility.
 
For those of you that have drank too much of the FAA and AOPA coolaid, inspections are inspections, and repairs are repairs.

you don't have to do one to get the other. but both are maintenance, and are required to be placed in the maintenance records.

Maintenance has a standard, and inspections have a standard. that is why we have different requirement for the inspector and the repairman.

The question becomes "will the maintenance facility separate the two? "

If not, it is up to you to except that fact and open your wallot or find a facility that will and charge accordingly.

You are not required to except the BOHICA factor at annual time.
 
Not here. We have a half-dozen shops on the field, and the standing disclosure to customers from the shop I use is that the stated cost of the inspection is the only line on the invoice. No additional time will be spent, no additional charge will be made.

The stated cost includes taking it apart, inspecting the items required by the maintenance manual and shop policy, preparing a list of those items (with estimated pricing to remedy) putting it back together and rolling it outside. If you want the shop to fix the stuff on the list, they will do so. If you want somebody else to do it and sign off the repairs, that's your call. You only owe the shop for the amount of the inspection.

steingar said:
Inspection doesn't equal repair. Right, in some sort of fantasy land where there are a dozens of shops on each airfield. Here in the real world there is one shop at most airports that even have a mechanic, and that isn't all of them. If the aircraft has squawks, it isn't gong anywhere barring a ferry permit, since it is in unairworthy condition barring the repairs. Odds are the guy doing the fixing is the guy who inspected it in the first place.
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wabower said:
Not here. We have a half-dozen shops on the field, and the standing disclosure to customers from the shop I use is that the stated cost of the inspection is the only line on the invoice. No additional time will be spent, no additional charge will be made.

The stated cost includes taking it apart, inspecting the items required by the maintenance manual and shop policy, preparing a list of those items (with estimated pricing to remedy) putting it back together and rolling it outside. If you want the shop to fix the stuff on the list, they will do so. If you want somebody else to do it and sign off the repairs, that's your call. You only owe the shop for the amount of the inspection.
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Congrats on living in fantasy-land. I imagine its nice there. What I described exists at my field and practically every field I land at, if not practically every one I've ever landed at barring the class charlies and bravos. And for all I know big airports like that only have one shop where you can take your piston single.

I can't imagine why someone would trust one person to do the inspection but not the repairs. Both are very important.
 
You need to get out more. Shops are figuring out they can't operate like they did back in the day, especially with guys like Busch and others regaularly generating articles that explain the process and even manage the maintenance for owners who aren't up to speed. What I described is well understood by all the shops I would consider using for a plane I own or represent. But then again, this is TX and most of us are packing heat.

steingar said:
Congrats on living in fantasy-land. I imagine its nice there. What I described exists at my field and practically every field I land at, if not practically every one I've ever landed at barring the class charlies and bravos. And for all I know big airports like that only have one shop where you can take your piston single.

I can't imagine why someone would trust one person to do the inspection but not the repairs. Both are very important.
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