Fighter Pilot Shortage

PaulS said:
A friend's son got rejected for fighter training for a stupid reason medically. They wanted him to fly in another capacity. He decided if he couldn't be up front he wanted to be an infantryman. About a month later he got a call and they told him they would waive the medical issue, now he is training.
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A very questionable story if you know assignments come after UPT...
 
Guard and Reserve guys used to know what they'd be flying, in advance, which was whatever their home unit flew, of course. So, you might know you were headed to fighters, assuming you got through UPT. An acquataince in my Reserve unit did have to find a new home, after having a lot of trouble getting up to speed. . .
 
Makes sense. As for active duty, you're at the mercy of the needs of Air Force at the time of UPT completion. If they need, or anticipate a need for more tanker pilots than fighter jocks guess where you'll probably be assigned. But, you know that.
 
GlennAB1 said:
A very questionable story if you know assignments come after UPT...
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Sort of. Decades ago the AF went from "UPT" to "SUPT," (Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training). Really the change came about when they decided to split Phase III from all T-38 to T-38, T-1, T-44 and UH-1 depending on how you track out of Phase II (T-37s, now T-6s). So coming out of Phase II, you are ranked and pick what track you want to go to. Fighter/Bomber guys (gals) go through the T-38 program. Tanker/Transport, through T-1s, C-130s go to fly T-44s with the Navy down at Corpus Christie, and Helo guys/gals go to Ft. Rucker and train with the Army down there. While I was a T-37 IP in the late 90s the bombers kept switching between the T-38/T-1 track while the AF tried to figured out what to do with them. There was also a chance to get a -130 from the T-1 track, usually as a FAIP follow-on.

I'm not quite sure of any medical condition that would disqualify you from flying fighters but allow you to go to UFT and fly heavies. As far as I know, there is only one medical exam to get you to UPT. I'm definitely not the expert, though. Now, once you are in SUPT, there might be some things that keep you from tracking to a fighter. Performance in Phase II being the most notable. The other big one is that now, SUPT students that want to track to T-38 have to ride the centrifuge prior to starting Phase III flying. There have been Studs who did well enough in Phase II to track Fighters, but couldn't pass the 'fuge. They typically were given the option to continue UPT in the T-1. I did have one Tweet Stud who tracked -38s, but couldn't pass the 'fuge. They were allowed to continue with the T-38 program with the hopes that some gym time and practice in the jet would get them ready to pass the 'fuge ride, with the stipulation that the 'fuge would have to be passed successfully before graduation. This student was not able to pass the 'fuge at the end of training so the AF assigned them to C-130s after graduation.

While I was at CBM, there was an AFRES fighter student who, after successfully completing the T-37 and T-38 syllabus was not recommended for IFF (Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals) training due to "sub-par" performance in Phase III. They allowed him to graduate and get his wings, but couldn't go back to his fighter unit because they weren't allowing him to go to IFF. He had to shop around to find another AFRES/ANG heavy unit that would take him as a new Lt/pilot. Not really a hard sell, since they were getting an instant copilot without any of the cost/time investment.

Caveat to all this above is that my UPT/SUPT information is now over a decade and a half old, so it might have changed in the previous 17 years since I was an IP.
 
Alright, I admit my information goes back even farther than yours. My brother completed UPT in 1978 and was a KC-10 IP in the late 80's, then going on to TPS.

Found this interesting:
Merit Assignment Selection System Process – How do you pick your aircraft?
  • At completion of Phase-3 advanced training, students are rank ordered based on merit
  • Flying, academic, and military performance scores
  • Compete for aircraft compatible with their specialized tracks (i.e. fighter/bomber, airlift/tanker…)
  • Numbers for each Major Weapon System (MWS) are determined by USAF needs
  • Wing Commander approves assignment
  • Graduates progress to follow-on FTU/RTU specific MWS training
  • Students also attend Land Survival, Water Survival, and any other schools required at this time.
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
yes it does....but, I'm a doubter that those cats know the technology vs. protecting their rice bowl. :D
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And I'm sure the fighter pilots on here will say "I'm a doubter those cats know and truly appreciate the fluidity and dynamic environment we work in vs. protecting their project." But that's me. I'll let them carry on this conversation...
 
and since we're talking about a shoot and forget type of engagements without having eyeball-to-eyeball contact....I'll rest my remote Ops case. :D

but, what do I know?....I'm not a fighter pilot. o_O
 
Sluggo63 said:
I'm not quite sure of any medical condition that would disqualify you from flying fighters but allow you to go to UFT and fly heavies.
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I think there are some anthro requirements that can cause guys to be sorted out of a particular community, at least there were in the navy. A pre-existing medical condition could probably do that as well. But, many things can be waivered. That may be what happened here.
 
GlennAB1 said:
A very questionable story if you know assignments come after UPT...
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Actually I know nothing about it other than what my friend told me. The kid had a little spot or something on the back of his retina, didn't affect his eyesight and otherwise is in great shape. He's college educated, great student, decided he would rather be on the ground if he couldn't be a pilot, they, the marines, gave him a call after about a month and gave him a waiver and he is in pilot training now. The story seemed to fit into the title of the thread so I thought it would be appropriate as the thread title would explain why they would come back to him. His father has never lied to me before.

Why do you think I would make it up, to impress you??
 
PaulS said:
Actually I know nothing about it other than what my friend told me. The kid had a little spot or something on the back of his retina, didn't affect his eyesight and otherwise is in great shape. He's college educated, great student, decided he would rather be on the ground if he couldn't be a pilot, they, the marines, gave him a call after about a month and gave him a waiver and he is in pilot training now. The story seemed to fit into the title of the thread so I thought it would be appropriate as the thread title would explain why they would come back to him. His father has never lied to me before.

Why do you think I would make it up, to impress you??
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I know a similar situation of a marine who was deaf in one ear. He eventually got it waivered and went on to fly fighters.
 
Had a Norwegian student who was a former F-16 student. Had some sort of back injury that wouldn't allow him to continue in fighters so they sent him to helos. Dude was good...as were all the Norwegian students we had.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Makes sense. As for active duty, you're at the mercy of the needs of Air Force at the time of UPT completion. If they need, or anticipate a need for more tanker pilots than fighter jocks guess where you'll probably be assigned. But, you know that.
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Had a friend who graduated number 1 in his class and wanted fighters. Air Force gave him a T-37 IP at CBM. In the 70s. He couldn't wait to get out of the USAF.

A fellow controller bar tended at the O Club at CBM. He was working graduation night and said they project behind the student a picture of their assignment. One guy got a T-37 IP slot at CBM and was outside bawling with his buddies cuddling him.
 
PaulS said:
Actually I know nothing about it other than what my friend told me. The kid had a little spot or something on the back of his retina, didn't affect his eyesight and otherwise is in great shape. He's college educated, great student, decided he would rather be on the ground if he couldn't be a pilot, they, the marines, gave him a call after about a month and gave him a waiver and he is in pilot training now. The story seemed to fit into the title of the thread so I thought it would be appropriate as the thread title would explain why they would come back to him. His father has never lied to me before.

Why do you think I would make it up, to impress you??
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Sorry bout that, I was thinking maybe it got misconstrued as the story got passed along not that anyone purposely lied.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Sorry bout that, I was thinking maybe it got misconstrued as the story got passed along not that anyone purposely lied.
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No problem, sometimes communicating via this medium is difficult.
 
mscard88 said:
Had a friend who graduated number 1 in his class and wanted fighters. Air Force gave him a T-37 IP at CBM. In the 70s. He couldn't wait to get out of the USAF.

A fellow controller bar tended at the O Club at CBM. He was working graduation night and said they project behind the student a picture of their assignment. One guy got a T-37 IP slot at CBM and was outside bawling with his buddies cuddling him.
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Dunno how things were in the 1970's, but as I understand it from my AF friends, FAIP (what ^ is describing) is a good route towards slow rolling into the operational track you want, that maybe wasn't available the day assignments came up when you graduated UPT. We have a slightly different program on the USN side called SERGRAD (selectively retained graduate), which is of shorter duration (i.e. not a full tour), but functions in a similar manner. Have never heard of a guy do that program and not get what they ultimately wanted. Granted it potentially has 2nd and 3rd order effects on your career timing when you get to the O-4+ level for Navy guys, but in the shorter term, it can be a great deal. Friend of mine did T-37 FAIP, and he ended up a career A-10 dude, which is what he wanted.
 
PaulS said:
Actually I know nothing about it other than what my friend told me. The kid had a little spot or something on the back of his retina, didn't affect his eyesight and otherwise is in great shape. He's college educated, great student, decided he would rather be on the ground if he couldn't be a pilot, they, the marines, gave him a call after about a month and gave him a waiver and he is in pilot training now. The story seemed to fit into the title of the thread so I thought it would be appropriate as the thread title would explain why they would come back to him. His father has never lied to me before.

Why do you think I would make it up, to impress you??
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I didn't doubt that you understood the story like that. Just like Glenn, I figured some information morphed over the years. Like I said, I was a UPT instructor "back in the day" and students did (do) not come in with a label "can not go fighters due to a medical issue." Either they came to UPT qualified for all aircraft or they didn't come.

Back when I was a young Lt going to UPT (early 90s) the vision requirement for UPT from 20/20 still. But that was just to start. Once you started Day 1, you now fell under the requirements that all other AF pilots did, meaning 20/20 was no longer a requirement. The first thing IPs did when a kid was having trouble landing was to send them to the optometrist, 90% of the time they would come back with glasses and were now able to magically land. It's funny how we all entered UPT with 'perfect' vision, and 5 weeks later, a third of the class was in glasses...
 
mscard88 said:
Had a friend who graduated number 1 in his class and wanted fighters. Air Force gave him a T-37 IP at CBM. In the 70s. He couldn't wait to get out of the USAF.

A fellow controller bar tended at the O Club at CBM. He was working graduation night and said they project behind the student a picture of their assignment. One guy got a T-37 IP slot at CBM and was outside bawling with his buddies cuddling him.
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Like 35AoA said, a FAIP wasn't a bad deal and could actually benefit a young Lt going forward. They just can't see it when all their buddies are going off to IFF and they're going to be spending 3-4 more years in the venerable Tweet.

It's all perspective... when I graduated UPT in the early 90s, the AF had a pilot surplus. Too many pilots and not enough seats. Their solution was to create a "pilot bank" where students would graduate UPT and then go to a non-flying desk job somewhere in the AF for 4 years, then the AF would bring them back into the cockpit to fly. A full 2/3 of my UPT class were banked. We had 13 aircraft slots for 39 graduates. We had zero fighters in our drop. Across all UPT bases (5, at the time), no body got a fighter. The number one guy took a KC-10 to Seymour Johnson. That was the "best" assignment on our list. Luckily, I was in the top 1/3 and was happy to receive my KC-135. Not what I wanted at the time (my number one choice would have been an F-111), but I figured it was better than flying a desk for four years.

Now, fast forward 5 years. The bank is over and the AF is back to its normal manning. I was a UPT instructor down at CBM and one of the classes was having their assignment night. One of the T-38 tracked Lts is visibly upset and sobbing. Why? He got an A-10 and he "wanted to fly something with an afterburner." YGTBSM! Any one of us in my UPT class would have given various parts of our anatomy to go fly A-10s, and this kid has the nerve to cry over it... Perspective...
 
That much is still true today. You aren't unqualified for any particular airframe, medically speaking, when you start. I will caveat that by saying a small percentage are unqualified for specific aircraft based on anthro measurements, but that is a rarity. I was an RCH away from being DQ'd to fly Prowlers based on too tall of a sitting height. Knew a girl who was DQ'd from E-2/C-2's, and raved about how it guaranteed her jets once she got to T-45s. Turned out she washed out of the program on her own merits.
 
35 AoA said:
Dunno how things were in the 1970's, but as I understand it from my AF friends, FAIP (what ^ is describing) is a good route towards slow rolling into the operational track you want, that maybe wasn't available the day assignments came up when you graduated UPT. We have a slightly different program on the USN side called SERGRAD (selectively retained graduate), which is of shorter duration (i.e. not a full tour), but functions in a similar manner. Have never heard of a guy do that program and not get what they ultimately wanted. Granted it potentially has 2nd and 3rd order effects on your career timing when you get to the O-4+ level for Navy guys, but in the shorter term, it can be a great deal. Friend of mine did T-37 FAIP, and he ended up a career A-10 dude, which is what he wanted.
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Wasn't me, a friend who was #1 in his classs. I was enlisted.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I didn't doubt that you understood the story like that. Just like Glenn, I figured some information morphed over the years. Like I said, I was a UPT instructor "back in the day" and students did (do) not come in with a label "can not go fighters due to a medical issue." Either they came to UPT qualified for all aircraft or they didn't come.

Back when I was a young Lt going to UPT (early 90s) the vision requirement for UPT from 20/20 still. But that was just to start. Once you started Day 1, you now fell under the requirements that all other AF pilots did, meaning 20/20 was no longer a requirement. The first thing IPs did when a kid was having trouble landing was to send them to the optometrist, 90% of the time they would come back with glasses and were now able to magically land. It's funny how we all entered UPT with 'perfect' vision, and 5 weeks later, a third of the class was in glasses...
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Ok, I was told this in January. Again, I know nothing about the process, only what I was told. The kid was told he could not be a pilot because of a spot on his retina. His vision was and still is perfect 20/20. They told him he couldn't be a pilot in their AC with that but could be in the AC in another capacity. He told his old man if he didn't fly he would rather be on the ground and that's where he went. After about a month they called him and told him that they would give him an waiver and I believe he is training now. He wants to be a fighter pilot.

I don't see his old man too often, but next time I do, I'll tell him that I told his story on a pilot board and several pilots think he is full of crap. Can't wait for the reaction, should be funny.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I was told this in January. Again, I know nothing about the process, only what I was told. The kid was told he could not be a pilot because of a spot on his retina. His vision was and still is perfect 20/20. They told him he couldn't be a pilot in their AC with that but could be in the AC in another capacity. He told his old man if he didn't fly he would rather be on the ground and that's where he went. After about a month they called him and told him that they would give him an waiver and I believe he is training now. He wants to be a fighter pilot.

I don't see his old man too often, but next time I do, I'll tell him that I told his story on a pilot board and several pilots think he is full of crap. Can't wait for the reaction, should be funny.
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There's nothing unusual about the story. People get flagged for medical reasons all the time and sort it out through waivers.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I was told this in January. Again, I know nothing about the process, only what I was told. The kid was told he could not be a pilot because of a spot on his retina. His vision was and still is perfect 20/20. They told him he couldn't be a pilot in their AC with that but could be in the AC in another capacity. He told his old man if he didn't fly he would rather be on the ground and that's where he went. After about a month they called him and told him that they would give him an waiver and I believe he is training now. He wants to be a fighter pilot.

I don't see his old man too often, but next time I do, I'll tell him that I told his story on a pilot board and several winged active duty and retired fighter pilots think he is full of crap. Can't wait for the reaction, should be funny.
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Fixed for you :) I didn't actually think he was full of crap, just that most likely, the story is being lost in translation. To be clear, you initially made it sound like he had some weird medical issue that disqualified him from only fighters when he started training/had his initial physical, but not other things. And in this most recent post, you describe an entirely different (and reasonable) scenario. Waivers happen plenty, and they take time. When you need a waiver for something, it is because without it, you wouldn't be flying/qualified to fly in general, not just one type of aircraft. If that makes any sense. Or maybe I just misread your original posting.
 
35 AoA said:
Fixed for you :) I didn't actually think he was full of crap, just that most likely, the story is being lost in translation. To be clear, you initially made it sound like he had some weird medical issue that disqualified him from only fighters when he started training/had his initial physical, but not other things. And in this most recent post, you describe an entirely different (and reasonable) scenario. Waivers happen plenty, and they take time. When you need a waiver for something, it is because without it, you wouldn't be flying/qualified to fly in general, not just one type of aircraft. If that makes any sense. Or maybe I just misread your original posting.
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It is possible to get anthro'd out of fighters, I knew of several when I was going through. Weight being one, reach length and sitting height being others. There are large tolerances, but some people do fall outside of them. I know of two guys that had to leave the fighter community because of problems with their necks. It wasn't their decision, to continue flying it could only be in a non-ejection seat aircraft. Another guy was given the same option because of an ejection injury to his legs. I've also seen medical restrictions put on pilots so that they cannot fly solo, it must be in a multi crew aircraft. The point is, there wasn't sufficient reason to doubt his story, I didn't think. I'm sure you know, NOMI is not always predictable and lots of weird stuff is discovered in those stressful couple of days. I got sidelined and pulled aside with no explanation and I was too dumb at the time to be concerned. It ended up being high BP which I had never had before, but fortunately it passed their standards before the end of the day.
 
None of my buddies that ended up as FAIPs wanted that assignment. Only about 50% of them got what they wanted after their FAIP tour.
 
I suspect 'other capacity' was as a rated non-pilot, i.e. whatever they are calling navs these days.
 
Cooter said:
It is possible to get anthro'd out of fighters, I knew of several when I was going through. Weight being one, reach length and sitting height being others. There are large tolerances, but some people do fall outside of them. I know of two guys that had to leave the fighter community because of problems with their necks. It wasn't their decision, to continue flying it could only be in a non-ejection seat aircraft. Another guy was given the same option because of an ejection injury to his legs. I've also seen medical restrictions put on pilots so that they cannot fly solo, it must be in a multi crew aircraft. The point is, there wasn't sufficient reason to doubt his story, I didn't think. I'm sure you know, NOMI is not always predictable and lots of weird stuff is discovered in those stressful couple of days. I got sidelined and pulled aside with no explanation and I was too dumb at the time to be concerned. It ended up being high BP which I had never had before, but fortunately it passed their standards before the end of the day.
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Yeah, I think I alluded to that much in my first post. Original story was something to do with the eyes. I've never heard of a SNA/SMA being qualified only for certain aircraft based on an eye condition. That having been said, I think the story got cleared up, and makes much more sense. Good luck to the kid, glad to hear he got whatever issue it was resolved.
 
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