Fighter jet guys....

Sac Arrow

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Snorting his way across the USA
A couple F15's are scrambled to follow a 210 that dropped a bad thing on something it shouldn't have. Desert/mountain region. How are they going to follow it?
 
Quick search will do wonders; talked about this a lot over the years.

We go fast till the intercept then do a race track pattern around anything slower than 230ish knots. One guy behind with a radar lock following and going as slow as he can (while still overtaking) and the other guy who just flew by the 210 is going faster to get to the back of the line. Really easy.
 
Reminds me of the little old lady in the taildragger that busted the Presidential TFR north of Chicago a few years ago. She was doing pattern work at an airpark. That must have been an entertaining intercept.

Better was the interview when she said the nice boys in the jets were so nice and the Pres should’ve stayed home for his birthday and Michelle could’ve made him a nice cake. LOL.
 
Or the dumb old fart from Wyoming who decided he needed to go to Denver one day. Obama was in town. The F-16s didn’t/couldn’t intercept him before he landed at APA...
 
Occasionally we'd get s handoff from center to watch an airplane w/ a transponder & special code on it that the pilot would not be aware of in case he landed in our airspace somewhere. Usually DEA plane not far behind. Then we'd just hand him back off to center.
 
Quick search will do wonders; talked about this a lot over the years.

We go fast till the intercept then do a race track pattern around anything slower than 230ish knots. One guy behind with a radar lock following and going as slow as he can (while still overtaking) and the other guy who just flew by the 210 is going faster to get to the back of the line. Really easy.

How far back is the other guy going to go before he gets back in line?
 
Quick search will do wonders; talked about this a lot over the years.

We go fast till the intercept then do a race track pattern around anything slower than 230ish knots. One guy behind with a radar lock following and going as slow as he can (while still overtaking) and the other guy who just flew by the 210 is going faster to get to the back of the line. Really easy.
Say you caught up to the guy, oh about 10 minutes after you launched? What is your endurance going to be doing that?
 
How far back depends on the situation. A few miles is pretty normal. Always enough to get a radar lock before the other guy drops his and starts to the back of the line.

As far as endurance, again it depends. If we intercept someone close to home and do that we can probably stay there for 2 hours before we need a tanker.
 
Say you caught up to the guy, oh about 10 minutes after you launched? What is your endurance going to be doing that?

Tankers are your friend. Don't know if they'd go to all that much trouble though.
 
No, that’s a Carrier thing.
 
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. :fingerwag: Gay-Navy jokes aren't PC, you should throw that out there just to show an attempt at compliance.

But then again being gay is now super-cool, so maybe the Navy was just ahead of its time.:dunno:
 
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. :fingerwag: Gay-Navy jokes aren't PC, you should throw that out there just to show an attempt at compliance.

But then again being gay is now super-cool, so maybe the Navy was just ahead of its time.:dunno:

But I was Air Force and we were instructed to make fun of the Navy. ;):D
 
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Tankers are your friend. Don't know if they'd go to all that much trouble though.
All the jets on alert are 15 min launch or less (sometimes as short as 5 min alert if the threat is high- an entirely different discussion). Tankers in the US are on 1 hr alert typically.
 
All the jets on alert are 15 min launch or less (sometimes as short as 5 min alert if the threat is high- an entirely different discussion). Tankers in the US are on 1 hr alert typically.

Do they have one circling at every alert location or nearby?
 
KC-135. The receivers cannot switch. AF is configured for the boom and the Navy is configured for the basket. The AF tankers can be configured for either. Navy tankers only have the hose and basket.

Away from the boat, the Navy uses the AF tankers. The tactical jets the Navy uses for tanking will usually only pass around 2k at a time.
 
Whats the smallest thing the AF has? Can F15's get gas from a hose and basket, or do they need a boom

AF Special Ops planes and rescue both have C130s that refuel AF choppers.
 
Do they have one circling at every alert location or nearby?
Tankers? No they are on one hour alert - so they have to be airborne an hour after the call comes in. I'm not sure where all the alert tanker dudes are based, but anytime we have a longish real world intercept (as opposed to practice ones or evaluation ones) we always end up with a tanker. Some of those sorties have ended up being 5 hours or more.

Whats the smallest thing the AF has? Can F15's get gas from a hose and basket, or do they need a boom
Smallest tanker the AF has is technically the KC-130, but that's hose only for helo's and CV-22's. The 135 is the smallest tanker that (USAF) fighters can use.
 
Tankers? No they are on one hour alert - so they have to be airborne an hour after the call comes in. I'm not sure where all the alert tanker dudes are based, but anytime we have a longish real world intercept (as opposed to practice ones or evaluation ones) we always end up with a tanker. Some of those sorties have ended up being 5 hours or more.
.

So many Guard/Reserves units w/ 135s all over the country that makes sense. They must pull alert duty from their home bases would be my guess, excepting a deployment.
 
So many Guard/Reserves units w/ 135s all over the country that makes sense. They must pull alert duty from their home bases would be my guess, excepting a deployment.
Yeah, I know Birmingham sits some alert. I'm just not sure if it might be a roving alert requirement or if it's 24/7/365 like we are. Might be B-ham for a month, Tampa for a month, etc since tankers can be regional. Don't know for sure.
 
Yeah, I know Birmingham sits some alert. I'm just not sure if it might be a roving alert requirement or if it's 24/7/365 like we are. Might be B-ham for a month, Tampa for a month, etc since tankers can be regional. Don't know for sure.

Makes sense with the fleet spread out like that. There's a BHM guy in the neighborhood, have to ask him next time I see him. Thanks Evil.
 
All the jets on alert are 15 min launch or less (sometimes as short as 5 min alert if the threat is high- an entirely different discussion). Tankers in the US are on 1 hr alert typically.

Let's expand on this a little bit, if you don't mind. I actually have a reason for asking this beyond idle curiosity (no, I'm not planning on testing the system) but how do the rules of engagement change for a -high- vs not so high threat? Who establishes them? Who gives the order to shoot?
 
Let's expand on this a little bit, if you don't mind. I actually have a reason for asking this beyond idle curiosity (no, I'm not planning on testing the system) but how do the rules of engagement change for a -high- vs not so high threat? Who establishes them? Who gives the order to shoot?

Writing your next book there, Mr. Clancy? ;)
 
The ROE doesn't change for threat levels - there is war-time ROE and peace-time ROE. As far as the alert posture (how long we have to be airborne) that can be influenced by intel and ultimately decided by someone in the homeland defense (military side) of the command chain. Who gives the order to shoot depends on what the target is, where the target is, what we know about it, what's happened (are we in peacetime or war time ROE), etc. Some of the details are classified and others are FOUO - unfortunately POA doesn't qualify. :D

What is your reasoning for asking? (IYDM)
 
The ROE doesn't change for threat levels - there is war-time ROE and peace-time ROE. As far as the alert posture (how long we have to be airborne) that can be influenced by intel and ultimately decided by someone in the homeland defense (military side) of the command chain. Who gives the order to shoot depends on what the target is, where the target is, what we know about it, what's happened (are we in peacetime or war time ROE), etc. Some of the details are classified and others are FOUO - unfortunately POA doesn't qualify. :D

What is your reasoning for asking? (IYDM)

Understood of course. And Mr. @denverpilot hit on it in the post above. I'd love to pick your brain off line but I understand you have limitations in what you can talk about, and I think I have enough to go on for my purposes. Yes, I'm writing a book.
 
Understood of course. And Mr. @denverpilot hit on it in the post above. I'd love to pick your brain off line but I understand you have limitations in what you can talk about, and I think I have enough to go on for my purposes. Yes, I'm writing a book.
PM me if you'd like and I'll help when I can - or if you have something written and want to bounce it off me to see if it's close, I'm happy to help.
 
Worked on a Navy Carrier based UCAV for McDonald Douglas that was going to be a surveillance bird. AFAIK They are now thinking about converting it to a tanker bird to minimize use of the tactical birds as buddy tankers.

Cheers
 
Understood of course. And Mr. @denverpilot hit on it in the post above. I'd love to pick your brain off line but I understand you have limitations in what you can talk about, and I think I have enough to go on for my purposes. Yes, I'm writing a book.
On your 'Thanks To' page, don't forget POA
 
KC-135. The receivers cannot switch. AF is configured for the boom and the Navy is configured for the basket. The AF tankers can be configured for either. Navy tankers only have the hose and basket.

Away from the boat, the Navy uses the AF tankers. The tactical jets the Navy uses for tanking will usually only pass around 2k at a time.

And to further muddy the waters, KC-10 is (at least in my experience) always dual configured, i.e. can drop the boom for AF, or string the hose for USN/USMC/NATO. They have to administratively reel in/raise the current fueling device, and do some stuff internally with their pumps/settings which takes a few mins, but they can effectively switch type of receiver real time in the air.

KC-135 comes in two configurations......one is MPRS, which are the little buddy stores on either/both outboard wing stations, that serve probe/drogue, and allow the jet to retain a boom that can fuel AF jets as well. Other, somewhat more common configuration is just the boom, with an adapter hose and basket that extends from the end of the boom. In this configuration, the jet is unable to service USAF style aircraft until it lands and they take the hose/basket off. This particular appendage is called the "Iron Maiden" by USN/USMC aviators, as it is a comparatively "hard" basket (pretty much all metal), and moreso because it is at the end of a very very short hose, and you have very very little slop in terms of drifting out of position, or alternately when first plugging. It will snap a refueling probe in a heartbeat, or in my case when I was first learning, completely destroy an AoA probe and damage the nosecone/radome, causing multiple FCS degrades and requiring an emergency divert. It isn't hard most of the time once you get the hang of it, but if you get lazy or complacent, it will bite you.

KC-130 is always probe/drogue configured, with wingtip buddy stations, much like MPRS KC-135, though it flies about 60-70 knots slower, and is therefore slightly more uncomfortable to receive from, at least from a jet/tacair perspective.

Lastly, there are a bunch of older NATO aircraft that are a mixed bag, mainly along the lines of the KC-10 config. Also, OMEGA operates KC-707's (and I think one KC-10), which are all USN/USMC configured, since we are the only customer. OMEGA doesn't participate in combat ops, but they provide gas for a lot of workup/training exercises. Nice soft basket, like the -10, MPRS, or -130 (or F/A-18E/F for that matter)

Sorry, end thread jack :)
 
KC-135 comes in two configurations...... "Iron Maiden" ... it will bite you. :)

True story. Feb 2002, IIRC, the AAR tracks around Kandahar. A section of C-model Hornets go to the tanker configured as as above. One gets a good good hookup and moves to the wing. The other lost part of the canopy after a basket strike.

Heard on the tanker freq “I don’t think you understand, I’m flying a convertible here.”

Can’t remember if they took it back to the boat or diverted.
 
True story. Feb 2002, IIRC, the AAR tracks around Kandahar. A section of C-model Hornets go to the tanker configured as as above. One gets a good good hookup and moves to the wing. The other lost part of the canopy after a basket strike.

Heard on the tanker freq “I don’t think you understand, I’m flying a convertible here.”

Can’t remember if they took it back to the boat or diverted.
I'm surprised I don't remember that, I'm sure I heard about it. That Hornet wouldn't go back to the boat unless there was no divert option. It probably diverted to an airfield in Pakistan.
 
The other lost part of the canopy after a basket strike.
Somewhere in a dusty drawer I have a dusty video of that happening on a shiny new TF-18. Yes, TF-18.

Nauga,
and his splitting headache
 
Somewhere in a dusty drawer I have a dusty video of that happening on a shiny new TF-18. Yes, TF-18.

Nauga,
and his splitting headache

You got that in Beta or VHS? Were you sittin' in the back taking notes or anything?
 
You got that in Beta or VHS? Were you sittin' in the back taking notes or anything?
Only the finest VHS. I had nothing to do with it, but the story behind the event is (or was, anyway) legendary. Someday.

I do have a little time behind a Convair 880 with a basket, but we didn't break nuthin'. Excuse me, *the* 880 with a basket. :D

Nauga,
last year's model of discretion
 
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