FF routed me around Class D??

[SixPapaCharlie]

Today I flew from OKC to Sherman on my way home because AvGas is 4.25 / gal there

So if you are bored, pull up your favorite VFR sectional website and look at KSWI I was heading there from the north.

Just as I got within about 2 miles of the Delta, Center says "6PC, fly 090"
Then every 30-40 seconds

"6PC, fly 100"
"6PC, fly 110"
"6PC, fly 150"
"6PC, fly 185"

He basically flew me around the parameter of the Class D bordering the field KGYI

I have never had them do that. I guess since I was descending into the field maybe they didn't want to confuse the tower at GYI? but that shouldn't be an issue as the tower would surely know I was passing through to the next field. They should be used to this. I assumed I would just transition.

So Had a new experience today, and not sure why they did it this way.
I have always gone through Class D on FF

Here is how they flew me in
http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.6149623...597865,-96.55128478486944:A.K4.KSWI:A.K4.KDTO

 

[TUPilot]

ATC doesn't assume the tower will know what you are doing; prior to entering the Delta the FF controller will contact the tower. Whatever was going on in the Delta was either incompatible with you descending through it, or for some reason either the controller you were working with or the tower controller was unable to take the time to coordinate a transition. Either way, you can't go through the airspace.

 

[docmirror]

So. You had your radio on, you had them tuned in, once they start giving directions, you don't have a choice. Tough shyte.

You could have left your radio off, stay at 3400 and just go over the top. Or, pick a lower alt and call GYI and advise them of your plans. But again - once you are on their freq, you play by their rules or stay out.

I know what I do.

 

[DrewG]

That's pretty interesting routing. As a thread jack - I was at KOUN today. Did you happen to check out the open house they were having?

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

That's pretty interesting routing. As a thread jack - I was at KOUN today. Did you happen to check out the open house they were having?

I sure did.
It was awesome!

 

[DrewG]

If I had seen (and recognized) your plane, I'd have introduced myself! I wasn't out there until about noon, but it was a pretty awesome deal! My kid had a blast and the quick tower tour was cool.

 

[roncachamp]

Today I flew from OKC to Sherman on my way home because AvGas is 4.25 / gal there

So if you are bored, pull up your favorite VFR sectional website and look at KSWI I was heading there from the north.

Just as I got within about 2 miles of the Delta, Center says "6PC, fly 090"
Then every 30-40 seconds

"6PC, fly 100"
"6PC, fly 110"
"6PC, fly 150"
"6PC, fly 185"

He basically flew me around the parameter of the Class D bordering the field KGYI

I have never had them do that. I guess since I was descending into the field maybe they didn't want to confuse the tower at GYI? but that shouldn't be an issue as the tower would surely know I was passing through to the next field. They should be used to this. I assumed I would just transition.

So Had a new experience today, and not sure why they did it this way.
I have always gone through Class D on FF

You shouldn't have been vectored. The radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of the Class D airspace. If he wasn't able to do that he should have directed you to remain clear of the Class D airspace, how you stay clear should have been up to you.

 

[Brad Z]

You shouldn't have been vectored. The radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of the Class D airspace. If he wasn't able to do that he should have directed you to remain clear of the Class D airspace, how you stay clear should have been up to you.

Agreed. Did you ask the controller why he was vectoring you? Even under IFR when you get vectors out of the blue they say " N6PC turn left heading 110, vectors around skydiving activities at GYI"...or for traffic, or for sequencing, etc.

 

[silver-eagle]

I know when I am coming up on a class C or D, I ask if I am cleared through. I am usually told yes but occasionally have been asked to remain clear. I will then generally climb over it. I cannot recall ever receiving turning instructions for either class C or D.
A wannabe class B controller? Trainee? A guy jerking your chain?

 

[poadeleted20]

You shouldn't have been vectored. The radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of the Class D airspace. If he wasn't able to do that he should have directed you to remain clear of the Class D airspace, how you stay clear should have been up to you.

But wasn't it nice of that controller to make the effort to help the pilot stay clear? I sure think so.

 

[Unit74]

Simple fix.......center, canceling services and switch to tower freq...... Done.

 

[aggie06]

I don't think GYI has radar, so that may have had something to do with it?

 

[roncachamp]

But wasn't it nice of that controller to make the effort to help the pilot stay clear? I sure think so.

Because the decision on how to stay clear of it cannot be left to pilots to decide? Or because staying clear of it is simply beyond a pilot's ability?

 

[Kelvin]

Why that routing to begin with?

 

[MAKG1]

Simple fix.......center, canceling services and switch to tower freq...... Done.

Shouldn't you have a problem before you start fixing stuff?

And under the circumstances, tower is VERY likely to instruct to remain clear of Class D. If you can get a word in edgewise.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why that routing to begin with?

Maybe the original post tells us:

Today I flew from OKC to Sherman on my way home because AvGas is 4.25 / gal there

On the original question, my guess is like some of the others - something at KGYN required that you stay out of the airspace or approach/departure corridor. So he vectored you around, keeping you close, rather than tell you were on your own. Sounds like a nice guy to me. You could certainly have cancelled FF (I'm not going to assume a controller "refusal" unless I hear it).

Of course, there was a much better place to ask the "why" question than here.

 

[Kelvin]

Why that routing to begin with?

Maybe the original post tells us:

I'm not drunk...I'm just drinkin'

Now that I am up to speed, I will say there are several Class D fields within a 100-150 miles of home that will route you above or around in a flash due to the hornet's nest in the pattern.

Lynchburg VA (KLYH) is one. Their pattern is a zoo due to Liberty's Flight School.

Simmons Army Airfield KFBG is another. Simmons has rotorwing traffic night and day. On descent from the north, it is 99% likely to not be able to descend until you cross the runway center line at Simmons headed to Fayetteville (KFAY).

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

OK, makes sense if that is a busy field.
I have never been there before.

I don't mind that he routed me. I like flying and I like learning new things. Hadn't had this happen before so I couldn't think of why this field and not others.

I have flown through GKY to GPM a few times and I just go right through when on FF.

 

[KyleT]

Maybe active aerobatics at gyi?

 

[MBDiagMan]

On many other weekends I would have wondered if they were having one of their aerobatic events at Grayson County, but I was at the Bonham air show Saturday, so I doubt that aerobatics would have also been going on at Grayson County. Maybe Center thought the air show was at Grayson County which is a much more common aerobatics box than Bonham, only about 30 miles away.

If that guess were true, it's kind of scary to think that they might have vectored you directly over Bonham Jones while the air show was in progress if that had been in your path.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not drunk...I'm just drinkin'

That's OK. I actually started answering that I agreed with you. I just was lucky enough to catch it before hitting the submit button.

 

[timwinters]

Something similar happened to me when flying to KEYE Saturday morning. Indy approach told me to turn 10* left to avoid conflict with traffic departing KIND on RWY 23. I was still well outside of their Class Charlie when given this instruction, I was well NW of the extended CL of 23 (about 2.5 miles) and above the top of Charlie @ 5500'. But it was no big deal so I simply turned left direct Hendricks (2R2) then direct KEYE.

It did make me wonder, however, when "flight following" became "flight leading" outside of controlled (Class Bravo or Charlie) airspace.

 

[Old Fart]

1. Center has a POA account
2. ATC at GYI has a POA account
3. ATC calls Center and tells him, OH NO - NOT BRYAN!

 

[roncachamp]

Something similar happened to me when flying to KEYE Saturday morning. Indy approach told me to turn 10* left to avoid conflict with traffic departing KIND on RWY 23. I was still well outside of their Class Charlie when given this instruction, I was well NW of the extended CL of 23 (about 2.5 miles) and above the top of Charlie @ 5500'. But it was no big deal so I simply turned left direct Hendricks (2R2) then direct KEYE.

It did make me wonder, however, when "flight following" became "flight leading" outside of controlled (Class Bravo or Charlie) airspace.

It doesn't happen with Class B airspace. With Class C airspace it happens when you enter the Outer Area. From the P/CG:

OUTER AREA (associated with Class C airspace)−
Nonregulatory airspace surrounding designated
Class C airspace airports wherein ATC provides radar
vectoring and sequencing on a full-time basis for all
IFR and participating VFR aircraft. The service
provided in the outer area is called Class C service
which includes: IFR/IFR−standard IFR separation;
IFR/VFR−traffic advisories and conflict resolution;
and VFR/VFR−traffic advisories and, as appropriate,
safety alerts. The normal radius will be 20 nautical
miles with some variations based on site-specific
requirements. The outer area extends outward from
the primary Class C airspace airport and extends from
the lower limits of radar/radio coverage up to the
ceiling of the approach control’s delegated airspace
excluding the Class C charted area and other airspace
as appropriate.

 

[MBDiagMan]

1. Center has a POA account
2. ATC at GYI has a POA account
3. ATC calls Center and tells him, OH NO - NOT BRYAN!

 

[AggieMike88]

Maybe active aerobatics at gyi?

This is what I was wondering. KGYI is home to some acrobatic competitions. If the "box was hot", then you would have been kept away.

Bryan, don't forget that when ATC is asking you to do something that doesn't make sense at first, you can always ask them for the Paul Harvey "rest of the story".

 

[bflynn]

While flying VFR, I got this once due to (non-military) parachuting at Ft Bragg. Visibility was not great that day. After all the vectoring, I missed waypoints, had no idea where I was and had to ask for vectors to get back on course. It was rather uncomfortable not being sure exactly where I was and having no idea when I'd figure it out.

There's a reason ATC shouldn't vector VFR traffic unless absolutely necessary.

 

[petrolero]

You shouldn't have been vectored. The radar controller is required to coordinate the transition of the Class D airspace. If he wasn't able to do that he should have directed you to remain clear of the Class D airspace, how you stay clear should have been up to you.

Agreed. Did you ask the controller why he was vectoring you? Even under IFR when you get vectors out of the blue they say " N6PC turn left heading 110, vectors around skydiving activities at GYI"...or for traffic, or for sequencing, etc.

But wasn't it nice of that controller to make the effort to help the pilot stay clear? I sure think so.

Because the decision on how to stay clear of it cannot be left to pilots to decide? Or because staying clear of it is simply beyond a pilot's ability?

Ordinarily, sure. But it isn't necessarily left to the pilot to remain clear of the D airspace in all cases. The controller may have wanted him to remain just clear but may have needed to keep him on vectors due to other traffic in the area. Perhaps KGYI was throwing off IFR aircraft and the controller needed positive control of the VFR plane. Whatever - the reasons could be anything or just the controller's preference.

When they vector you they are supposed to tell you why they are vectoring you (Fly heading xxx vectors for spacing, for traffic, to final, etc.). Did they in this case?

 

[Kelvin]

While flying VFR, I got this once due to (non-military) parachuting at Ft Bragg. Visibility was not great that day. After all the vectoring, I missed waypoints, had no idea where I was and had to ask for vectors to get back on course. It was rather uncomfortable not being sure exactly where I was and having no idea when I'd figure it out.

There's a reason ATC shouldn't vector VFR traffic unless absolutely necessary.

Not much non-military parachuting at Bragg...might have been on the south side of post near PK Airpark...(5W4).

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

1. Center has a POA account
2. ATC at GYI has a POA account
3. ATC calls Center and tells him, OH NO - NOT BRYAN!

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

When they vector you they are supposed to tell you why they are vectoring you (Fly heading xxx vectors for spacing, for traffic, to final, etc.). Did they in this case?

He may have but I don't recall the reasoning.
We had the same controller when we departed and as soon as we got in contact he gave us a heading and and and I know for certain that time he didn't say why because me and dad both said "Why is he giving us a heading in the middle of nowhere"

Then about 2 min later the leer came over the top of us.

I will ask next time. You really do learn stuff on almost every flight

 

[roncachamp]

Ordinarily, sure. But it isn't necessarily left to the pilot to remain clear of the D airspace in all cases. The controller may have wanted him to remain just clear but may have needed to keep him on vectors due to other traffic in the area. Perhaps KGYI was throwing off IFR aircraft and the controller needed positive control of the VFR plane. Whatever - the reasons could be anything or just the controller's preference.

No, they can't, not according to the book. The reasons for ATC to initiate vectoring of aircraft are limited to those in Order 7110.65 and there is none for use by Center for VFR aircraft.

When they vector you they are supposed to tell you why they are vectoring you (Fly heading xxx vectors for spacing, for traffic, to final, etc.).

Yes.

 

[Henning]

I suspect that there was enough or peculiar local traffic to warrant keeping you out of their airspace.

 

[petrolero]

No, they can't, not according to the book. The reasons for ATC to initiate vectoring of aircraft are limited to those in Order 7110.65 and there is none for use by Center for VFR aircraft.

Quote the part of that order that prohibits what they did. I have no idea why you think center can't vector him around D airspace if they have a reason. I've been vectored around airspace plenty of times - under it too.

Yes.

How do you know? Were you there? LiveATC? If you know they gave him a reason, what was it?

 

[petrolero]

To me it looks like they didn't want to hand you off because there would have been no time to hand you back to center after transitioning KGYI's airspace. They could have terminated radar service and offered you KGYI's tower freq also. Whatever they did they should have explained it.

 

[roncachamp]

Quote the part of that order that prohibits what they did.

Section 6. Vectoring

5−6−1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:

g. Operating VFR at those locations where a special program is established, or when a pilot requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.

I have no idea why you think center can't vector him around D airspace if they have a reason.

I acquired that idea by spending nearly thirty years in ATC.

I've been vectored around airspace plenty of times - under it too.

That there are controllers that do not adhere to the order in this area does not alter the contents or meaning of the order.

How do you know? Were you there? LiveATC? If you know they gave him a reason, what was it?

The statement was, "When they vector you they are supposed to tell you why they are vectoring you (Fly heading xxx vectors for spacing, for traffic, to final, etc.)."

 

[petrolero]

Section 6. Vectoring

5−6−1. APPLICATION

Vector aircraft:

g. Operating VFR at those locations where a special program is established, or when a pilot requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.

That's supposed to be the applicable verbiage that says ATC can't vector him?

What is the "special program" it mentions? Are you aware of a special program in this area? You didn't quote anything about that.

I'm not seeing where it says "can't vector an aircraft on FF". Remember too that we still haven't established *why* they vectored him. My guess is that it was for convenience but the controller might have argued it was for traffic. It could also have been a denied handoff from KGYI tower. It doesn't really matter. It is legal for them to give him the vector. It happens thousands of times a day.

I acquired that idea by spending nearly thirty years in ATC.

An appeal to your own authority. Nifty. Still you haven't shown my why what they did was not allowed.

I'm actually trying to understand WTF you're talking about - to learn something. But you're basically saying "believe me because I say so."

And yet what you say doesn't comport with my experience during 20 years as a pilot.

That there are controllers that do not adhere to the order in this area does not alter the contents or meaning of the order.

Yes. Lots of them.

The statement was, "When they vector you they are supposed to tell you why they are vectoring you (Fly heading xxx vectors for spacing, for traffic, to final, etc.)."

OK so you were agreeing with the statement, not answering the subsequent question "Did they give you a reason?" Gotcha.

So you agree they have to give him a reason when they vector him, but they aren't allowed to vector him. That makes no sense.

 

[petrolero]

So here is the full section 5-6-1:

5​

​

​

​

−6−1. APPLICATION​

Vector aircraft:​

a. ​

​

​

​

In controlled airspace for separation, safety,​

noise abatement, operational advantage, confidence​

maneuver, or when a pilot requests. Allow aircraft​

operating on an RNAV route to remain on their own​

navigation to the extent possible.​

b.​

​

​

​

​

In Class G airspace only upon pilot request and​

as an additional service.​

c.​

​

​

​

​

At or above the MVA or the minimum IFR​

altitude except as authorized for radar approaches,​

special VFR, VFR operations, or by para 5​

​

​

​

−6−3,​

Vectors Below Minimum Altitude.​

NOTE​

​

​

​

−​

VFR aircraft not at an altitude assigned by ATC may be​

vectored at any altitude. It is the responsibility of the pilot​

to comply with the applicable parts of CFR Title 14.​

REFERENCE​

​

​

​

−​

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4​

​

​

​

−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.​

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7​

​

​

​

−5−2, Priority.​

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7​

​

​

​

−5−4, Altitude Assignment.​

FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7​

​

​

​

−7−5, Altitude Assignments.​

14 CFR Section 91.119, Minimum Safe Altitudes: General.​

d.​

​

​

​

​

In airspace for which you have control​

jurisdiction, unless otherwise coordinated.​

e.​

​

​

​

​

So as to permit it to resume its own navigation​

within radar coverage.​

f.​

​

​

​

​

Operating special VFR only within Class B,​

Class C, Class D, or Class E surface areas.​

g.​

​

​

​

​

Operating VFR at those locations where a​

special program is established, or when a pilot​

requests, or you suggest and the pilot concurs.

But you only quoted g.

Does that mean that there was some "special program"? If so, what was it? You've vaguely hinted about it but haven't specified.

I'm actually curious because what you say is so far off from my experience flying airplanes.

Thanks in advance.

 

[roncachamp]

That's supposed to be the applicable verbiage that says ATC can't vector him?

That's the verbiage that supports my assertion; "The reasons for ATC to initiate vectoring of aircraft are limited to those in Order 7110.65 and there is none for use by Center for VFR aircraft."

What is the "special program" it mentions? Are you aware of a special program in this area? You didn't quote anything about that.

An agreement with an operator such as a flight school with a large fleet of aircraft. Basically a blanket request for vectors. Those that are covered by the agreement know that they are.

I'm not seeing where it says "can't vector an aircraft on FF".

Do you see where it says they can?

I'm not seeing where it says, "the reasons could be anything or just the controller's preference." Please quote the part of that order that supports that assertion.

Remember too that we still haven't established *why* they vectored him. My guess is that it was for convenience but the controller might have argued it was for traffic. It could also have been a denied handoff from KGYI tower. It doesn't really matter. It is legal for them to give him the vector. It happens thousands of times a day.

Automobile speeding happens millions of times a day, is that legal?

An appeal to your own authority. Nifty. Still you haven't shown my why what they did was not allowed.

You wrote, "I have no idea why you think center can't vector him around D airspace if they have a reason." I was just trying to end your puzzlement.

I'm actually trying to understand WTF you're talking about - to learn something. But you're basically saying "believe me because I say so.".

I never do that. I provide verifiable documentation to support my positions.

Yes. Lots of them.

So your position, that controllers can initiate vectoring of VFR aircraft around airspace, is based on it happening to you plenty of times and controllers being incapable of error?

So you agree they have to give him a reason when they vector him, but they aren't allowed to vector him. That makes no sense.

The reason for the vector is required in general. ATC is not permitted to initiate vectoring under the conditions in this case.

 

[Henning]

I cant recall a controller initiating a vector on me when VFR/FF. I have had many instances of "suggest heading of 240 for next 15 miles to avoid skydiving operation" or "traffic 8 miles 12 o'clock descending through your altitude" "looking" "negative contact" " traffic now 5 miles, suggest you come right 15°"

The only time I get vectors is when I ask for them, although I was offered them once when I told them I had lost my Nav radios and asked if they would give a shout if I was going to bust some airspace. They ended up vectoring me from the Grand Canyon to Spirit of St Louis airport.