Federal Court Decision: Flight training is carrying passengers for hire

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by flyingron, Apr 20, 2021.

  1. Half Fast

    Half Fast Final Approach

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    I suspect that means that whatever tiny bit of "give-a-damn" the FAA might have had just walked out the door. So don't hold your breath waiting for that letter to be rescinded, despite whatever the EAA and AOPA are saying.
     
  2. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    So are you trying to rent out your EAB aircraft to give instruction in it? Because 3-292 (a,b,c) is quite clear. The 8900.1 has not been changed, and there are no FAA Notices or Publications that have stated there is an upcoming change.

    FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 3, Chapter 11, Sec 1

    3-292 FLIGHT TRAINING IN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT.
    A. Use of Experimental Aircraft for Flight Training. Persons may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training in an aircraft holding an experimental certificate issued for any of the purposes specified in § 21.191. Other than the person receiving flight training, the operation must not involve the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire or be prohibited by the aircraft’s operating limitations.
    B. Flight Instructors. Flight instructors may receive compensation for providing flight training in an experimental aircraft, but may not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft in which they provide that flight training unless in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and as described in paragraph 3-293. An experimental aircraft owner may not rent an experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flight.
    C. Experimental Aircraft Owners. Owners of experimental aircraft may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training received in their aircraft. An owner of an experimental aircraft may not receive compensation for the use of their aircraft to provide flight training except in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and described in paragraph 3-293. An owner of an experimental LSA may not rent the experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flights.
    D. Flight in Experimental Aircraft. The FAA does not require flight instructors, pilot examiners, and aviation safety inspectors (ASI) to fly in experimental aircraft. The decision whether or not to provide flight training or conduct a check in an experimental aircraft is left to the discretion and judgment of the individual.
     
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  3. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    But AOPA said.....
     
  4. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    I know.......:rolleyes:

    Everyone keeps missing this

    faa letter 4.JPG


    So far none of this has happened, thus why the FSDO level personnel are not aware of it.
     
  5. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    No, you seem to be missing the fact that they are CONSIDERING ways to fix the problem. Right now, it's still a problem. You can't ignore it just because they promise to fix it one day. You still can't train without a LODA (which you can't get) because of this nonsense.
     
  6. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Where does it say that?
     
  7. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I'm not going to re-hash 8 pages. The answer is the same as it has been for 8 pages.
     
  8. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    o_O:rolleyes:

    Thanks for proving my point.
     
  9. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    You still seem to be operating under the impression that something's changed. Nothing's changed. So if you need a LODA today to do what you want to do, you would have needed one six months ago.
     
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  10. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    If you choose you may

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. keen9

    keen9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Doc, your point is clearly to defend the FAA at all costs. No one is talking about FAA Order 8900.1, or any wording change to any regulation. The FAA went to court to change the interpretation of the meaning of the words that are already there. The court sided with the FAA, and the FAA reiterated the court interpretation in the letter.
     
  12. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    No, my point is to use facts. Try it sometime, it's highly effective.

    But the regulations spell exactly what is required, and the 8900.1 is how the FSDO's deal with it. You claim (wildly) that you are unable to get a LODA, and that somehow this will prevent you from getting a BFR.

    Wow. You really need to go back and slow down, and read what was actually written.

    Otherwise

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Marshall Alexander

    Marshall Alexander Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I agree with Doc.......this time, lol. The FARs haven't changed AT ALL, yet.
     
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  14. smlsml

    smlsml Filing Flight Plan

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    I think it is pretty clear the FAA has for decades taken the position that flight instruction is not "for hire operations." They are not changing their position on this. This case was a very unique situation and the possibly poor wording by a judge who knows nothing about aviation is not going to uniquely cause the FAA to change its long standing position on the regulatory nature of flight instruction.
     
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  15. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I sure hope not but the first item on the list of things the government never does is admit they made a mistake. This ruling was a mistake.

    There is no guarantee it will be resolved reasonably.
     
  16. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Funny, I know pilots that use that exact same technique.......... :rolleyes:
     
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  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Which one? Not admitting mistakes, or hope as a strategy?
     
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