FCC approves Ligado 5G transmitters...potential GPS interference source

Arrow76R

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Arrow76r
Today The FCC approved a plan by Ligado to establish terrestrial transmitters for 5G service in the frequency spectrum adjacent to GPS. This proposed system has been opposed by DoD and many other government agencies as well as private and commercial users of precise positioning data from GPS. The following is from "Inside GNSS" :
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The five members of the Federal Communications Commission voted unanimously to approve a request by Ligado Networks to use satellite frequencies neighboring those used by GPS to broadcast from ground antennas for 5G, the agency announced Monday morning.


Repeated testing of the plan since it was first proposed by Ligado’s predecessor firm LightSquared in 2010 has shown that supporting terrestrial communications with the frequencies, which are in a band used by satellite systems, could interfere with GPS receivers. That testing included changes made by the firm to ease interference including reducing the amount of power in the signals and forgoing use of frequencies closest to GPS. Read More
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Ahh I wondered what had become of the LightSquared fiasco. LOL.

I guess it’s full steam ahead, no spectrum management!

I remember FCC having RF engineers ... :)
 
This was a political decision.

A LOT of well connected players and money involved in this company, including the former head of Verizon.
And they managed to override the DoD. Why are we not surprised?
 
And they managed to override the DoD. Why are we not surprised?
Not surprised at all. I watched an inter-agency war back in the late 80s/early 90s. I've seen how it works.
 
This was a political decision.

A LOT of well connected players and money involved in this company, including the former head of Verizon.

Note, the key word in all this, Money. …...same as it ever was, same as it ever was...…..
(Maybe not such a bad idea to retain ADF in the panel!)
 
I hate class-action lawsuits, but if my 30K panel became unreliable due to interference from a commercial satellite constellation, I'd be in.
 
This was a political decision.
A LOT of well connected players and money involved in this company, including the former head of Verizon.
Non-elected bureaucrats defying national security for the friends and family retirement plan.

Fire the lot of them.
 
I hate class-action lawsuits, but if my 30K panel became unreliable due to interference from a commercial satellite constellation, I'd be in.
GA avionics is a very tiny problem. Everything that depends on timing. Bank transactions. Telephone calls. Search & rescue. Pretty much all communication other than 2 cans and a string. Connecting to a network.

Since when is the FCC more powerful than the DOD?

Contact your congresscritters and complain. Do not put comments as only GA. There was a reason this was shot down (with a LOT of effort) 10 years ago. Go back, find the arguments, list them in an email to your reps/senators. It's election season for all Reps and 1/3 Senators. They are paying attention.

Remember - every state has at least one DOD facility.
 
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I hate class-action lawsuits, but if my 30K panel became unreliable due to interference from a commercial satellite constellation, I'd be in.

Agreed. I'd be in with you as well. Unfortunately, I don't think it will get resolved, or brought to the forefront until there is a major accident in IFR conditions caused by GPS interference.
 
I just gotta ask, how will an FAA investigation determine that an accident was caused by intermittent GPS interference? It'll probably take several before the culprit is "found." It might take even more before the FCC acknowledges it (maybe they won't. )
 
I just gotta ask, how will an FAA investigation determine that an accident was caused by intermittent GPS interference? It'll probably take several before the culprit is "found." It might take even more before the FCC acknowledges it (maybe they won't. )

It’ll take avionics that log the approach or a combo of reported on air malfunction and a ground track, which the latter won’t be conclusive — but it’ll take off a portion of the automatic “pilot error”.

Meanwhile most other pilots will mostly go missed and if it persists, to their alternate.

In other words the real accident rate will be so low, they’ll need a miracle to make the correlation.
 
It is scary to see how a little (OK, a lot in this case) lobbying money can outweigh the very reasonable cautioning and concern over the reliable working of GPS, which much of the population depends on in their everyday lives. I have a very hard time seeing this as anything other than bribing decision makers to benefit a business at the cost of the general public.

If it was only aviation users who will be affected, then I'd still be upset as a pilot who has invested a lot of money into my airplane and its equipment, but I can see the need for a reasonable discussion about what makes the most sense in the long run and in the big picture, given how small aviation is (relatively speaking). I'm not saying the outcome of that discussion is clear from the start, but I can see a need for analysis and debate.

But this case with Legato, it couldn't be clearer. Everyone uses GPS; many depend on it for convenience or efficiency, and some (like us) bet our lives on it when we fly RNAV approaches. This simply cannot go forward. The needs of so many should not be thrown out the window.

Sorry, let me step off my soap box now. But I'm really worried where this may take us.

- Martin
 
Someone's plot shows that you stand a good chance of not having decent (if any) GPS near their ground stations. Aviation problems are almost certainly to be the least of the issue (except if a ground station happens to be adjacent to an airfield with a GPS approach). The bigger issues are slow moving targets that still need GPS location: your auto navigation. E911 service, surveying, farming, and construction... etc...
 
It’ll take avionics that log the approach or a combo of reported on air malfunction and a ground track, which the latter won’t be conclusive — but it’ll take off a portion of the automatic “pilot error”.

Meanwhile most other pilots will mostly go missed and if it persists, to their alternate.

In other words the real accident rate will be so low, they’ll need a miracle to make the correlation.

It'll depend on the receiver and location. FAA flight check aircraft may or may not be able to tell - if they do, the approach will be NOTAMed OTS. There is equipment available that can test in the field. Unlike the VHF NAV band, where one could often hear the FM stations interned products that interfered with the system, this will be harder for the average user to detect. For GA (but not air carrier), the FAA seems more amenable to external filters in the receiving system - they have been used in some GNS-430 (and 430W) installations to reduce LO interference from the receiver getting back into the GPS system.

It is scary to see how a little (OK, a lot in this case) lobbying money can outweigh the very reasonable cautioning and concern over the reliable working of GPS, which much of the population depends on in their everyday lives. I have a very hard time seeing this as anything other than bribing decision makers to benefit a business at the cost of the general public.

If it was only aviation users who will be affected, then I'd still be upset as a pilot who has invested a lot of money into my airplane and its equipment, but I can see the need for a reasonable discussion about what makes the most sense in the long run and in the big picture, given how small aviation is (relatively speaking). I'm not saying the outcome of that discussion is clear from the start, but I can see a need for analysis and debate.

But this case with Legato, it couldn't be clearer. Everyone uses GPS; many depend on it for convenience or efficiency, and some (like us) bet our lives on it when we fly RNAV approaches. This simply cannot go forward. The needs of so many should not be thrown out the window.

Sorry, let me step off my soap box now. But I'm really worried where this may take us.

- Martin

A lot of politics at work. From the Fed perspective, there's a push for more competition in the wireless data sector, especially right now, and a push for more spectrum for data capacity. There's also the fact that the government makes a lot of money from spectrum auction and fees - spectrum that must lie fallow doesn't produce revenue. The FCC has steadily taken spectrum from other services (or forced spectrum efficiency measures in other services) to auction the spectrum to the wireless companies. That's why you periodically have to rescan your over-the-air HDTV receiver and why many state/local governments and other land mobile users have had to replace equipment with narrower-band transmission equipment.

When you look at it, the government - and the military - still have vast portions of spectrum reserved and that coordination is done by a different agency (IRAC, which is part of NTIA, which is part of Commerce). So the FCC does non-federal allocations and IRAC does Federal allocations. And all of it has to meet internationally-agreed spectrum map for allocations. Some of that harks back to the days where interoperability & compatibility were important. Less so now.

On the positive side, I've seen the FCC's field and enforcement bureau take a more aggressive stance against potential interfering transmitters than they did before. They've told various companies to "fix the interference or shut down" when it comes to protecting services deemed to be of higher priority - so safety-of-life stuff is at the top of the list, with wireless services somewhere in the middle. It will be quite interesting to see if the FCC maintains that stand against Ligado's stuff vs GPS or not. Certainly "wiping out" GPS may cause major disruption given that it's used to attain (more) precise timing within the existing 4G/5G networks, banking systems, computer & network systems, stock-trading systems, as well as the navigation systems we all know and (mostly) love. WAAS should make the aviation system more robust, though not for non-WAAS receivers.

So it remains to be seen just how this will roll out. And who will end up buying Legato's system. Will it be Verizon? T-Mobile? ATT? Dish? or one of the cable companies?

This is all presuming that 5G gets built in the face of the purported link to Covid-19. ;) :D
 
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