FBO/CRS/A&P/ protection

Someone who is a dead beat will often have bad history elsewhere. Take $2 or $5 and do an online Credit check.

Put the statement that you will do a credit review on every customer.

If they have outstanding bills and debts then what makes you think you will get paid? Ask for a deposit in that case if you still want to work for the guy.



Tom-D said:
If I were wanting to be a quasi lawyer I'd do that, I'm more interested in what words I can write on paper that will protect me from a dead beat owner.

Words on a work order don't work.
Words spoken don't work.

Locking the aircraft in the hangar won't work either

But I guess you think reading a big old book will.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
you still want to work for the guy.
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Your points are well taken.

one of my 170 customers stepped up and loaned me his 170 when I needed a taildragger to take the 709 ride after the F-24 incident. he also gave me his instruction time to get ready for the ride, and allowed me to have his aircraft for well over 2 weeks.

how would you treat him? do a credit check before taking him up on his generosity?

he no longer pays for my time.
 
Tom,

You might consider a few of these techniques I have used in my shops over the years. They help with collections, cash flow, customer management:

1. Credit check on the customer (jobs over $2500)- while misunderstandings pop up even with customers with good credit checks they are usually easily resolved as the customer expects to pay a reasonable charge. A dead beat leaves trails all over the place and is easy to spot and avoid. A credit check costs from $2-5 and can be done with an Internet connection. You should get the customer to sign your estimate, check in form which states that you will check their credit.

A customer who has outstanding debts and low over all credit you can call back and request a deposit to begin work.

2. New customer credit limit and or check accepting policies. We except up to $200 check from a first time new customer(without credit check this is a different type of customer). Over that they have to pay debit card, cash or Visa. I will have different policies for existing customers who have show their credit worthiness from past transactions from what I will offer a new customer. 2nd time customers might be able to write a check up to $600 or $1000. Long time customers credit limits are about 200% of their highest previous balance.

Like estimates and invoices, while bad checks are a PITA to collect they represent a legal contract of sorts which can be collected with some effort. The amount is not subject to argument in court as the client has already accepted the price evidenced by their writing the hot check in the first place.

3. Deposit - When we get requested to deliver and setup a network of a $10k server and $15k of more equipment we get paid in advance on all hardware which we use to order this equipment. We then bill net 10 for our labor after the job is done. This reduces our cash requirements to operate and lowers our risk of someone not paying us. A few $10k dead beats can really ruin your day, week, month.

4. Written Estimates - you might not be able to see all the hours and parts required to do a specific job but you often have a pretty good idea of what the largest gist of it is going to be and collect part or all of that amount up front. This requires an estimate form with some details which doesn't really take you much extra time as sooner or later you have to give the same level of detail anyway. So why not do it up front rather than keeping it in your head until your done and want to get paid. I use Quickbooks which is dead simple to use, and can easily be changed if you add/delete or edit items already put in. QB's allows you to add a bunch of boiler plate type statements to print on every estimate or invoice. Once the job is done you press one button later to convert the estimate into an invoice so you do not need to add it twice into the program.

5. A detailed estimate up front will resolve many misunderstandings being a proactive way to avoid problems. If a customer really doesn't have $5990. He will see it on the estimate and say I need to work out how I am going to pay for it. So you can have him come back when he has the money arrangements met.

6. I am dealing with Computers so our average bill is $200 to repair or $1000 for new equipment. We do not post that we hold equipment until paid but we do. It has never been an issue. I know others who state we will hold your equipment until payment is received. You might be able to get feedback from your local chamber of commerce on this subject.

You only want to spend your time creating the money/wealth not collecting it. So make the policies reasonable, firm and easy to do.

One warning I have to keep reminding myself is to not get so jaded that I set my policies on all my good customers based on my worst customers. You want to do this with finesse you never want to take your best customer and treat them as if they were early release from the state prison. Just be reasonable.
 
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I think we all have special customers. I have a lady who lost one son and the other one was in Iraq....couldn't fix her computer so we fixed it free. Another lady had her 12 year old with cancer at John Hopkins hospital and video chat was her only way to communicate daily as phone bills were too expensive. Fixed her computer free, even upgraded her ram. I usually give 25% discount to vets or people in uniform.

No point doing a credit check on someone you are going to do work for anyway. Still if I am giving free time I wouldn't have a problem asking for money for parts up front or for sure before the plane was picked up.


Tom-D said:
Your points are well taken.

one of my 170 customers stepped up and loaned me his 170 when I needed a taildragger to take the 709 ride after the F-24 incident. he also gave me his instruction time to get ready for the ride, and allowed me to have his aircraft for well over 2 weeks.

how would you treat him? do a credit check before taking him up on his generosity?

he no longer pays for my time.
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JoseCuervo said:
Can you put some sort of "Denver Boot" on all planes in your "custody"?
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Probably not. You can use means to secure the aircraft as long as they do not render the aircraft unairworthy. Locked chains to the tiedown rings would be legal, but the courts have already determined that one of those heavy chain prop locks renders the aircraft unairworthy in violation of Federal criminal law regarding tampering with/disabling aircraft. My guess is a boot-like device locked to a main wheel would fall in the same class as a heavy chain wrapped around the prop.
 
If I have a babysitter watching my child, and while she was watching him she decided she was going to replace my carpets, then bill me later for the carpet work, would I be expected to pay her for the time?
 
In many cases, mechanics leans involving immediate forced sale require you to not release possession of the aircraft. States may vary.

Dr. O said:
Hmmm, don't have a dog in this fight but I have watched it go on for over a half century.
A number of airplanes have been sold at a sheriff's auction to pay a mechanics lien, that I have personally observed.
Michigan has a mechanics lien law and it has real teeth.
Pay your bill or else.


One in particular was a real soap opera. Fella refused to pay the mechanic. Broke into the shop at night and tried to remove the plane (dog bit the crap out of him and an ambulance had to haul him away) and he tried to sue the mechanic for his injuries (judge dismissed the case)
Claimed the mechanic cheated him and changed parts that were not bad, etc. etc. Problem was that some of the regulars at the airport had been present when the owner and the mechanic looked at the defective parts - mags, oil cooler, gyro, etc. (plane was a piece of junk when it was brought to the shop) They verified that the owner told the mechanic to do the work and that he had been told what the work was estimated to cost.
So, at the auction the owner shows up and makes a big scene and hands the sheriff a check to pay the bill. Sheriff informs him he is too late and that the sheriff now owns the plane per a Judge's order - and if he wants to bid on it the auction is cash money only. Then the guy starts swearing at the bidders and when he is ordered to stop interrupting he shoves the sheriff. So at the end of the day he goes to jail and his plane goes to a new owner for ten dollars more than the bill. Mechanic goes over to the sheriff's car where the guy is in the back seat in handcuffs and stuffs a ten dollar bill into his shirt pocket. Sheriff drives away with the guy trying to kick the back windows out.
Bad things happen when you don't pay the mechanic.
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Tom-D said:
What ever ben, this isn't about if you trust me or not.
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I only go by what you posted.......

In the "New Customer" thread, you clearly stated the owner went to a judge and got a court order and the sheriff went to the mechanics shop and demanded ALL logs be turned over to him / the courts.. Right then...

Then you say the mechanic held back on the last log book containing ALL the pertinent maintenance records.......

Personally I don't know who the real crooked person is in this deal...

One side might have stretched the truth to get the judge to order the logs turned over.... That act will get you laughed at

The mechanic CLEARLY did not perform as the court order requested... That act will get you thrown in jail...:yes:

POT>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KETTLE >>>>>>>>>>> BLACK...:yes::mad2:
 
N801BH said:
I only go by what you posted.......

In the "New Customer" thread, you clearly stated the owner went to a judge and got a court order and the sheriff went to the mechanics shop and demanded ALL logs be turned over to him / the courts.. Right then...

Then you say the mechanic held back on the last log book containing ALL the pertinent maintenance records.......

Personally I don't know who the real crooked person is in this deal...

One side might have stretched the truth to get the judge to order the logs turned over.... That act will get you laughed at

The mechanic CLEARLY did not perform as the court order requested... That act will get you thrown in jail...:yes:

POT>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KETTLE >>>>>>>>>>> BLACK...:yes::mad2:
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You must remember I only knew what the owner told me, until I investigated my self.

The owner apparently didn't like my advise because I have not heard from him since I e-mailed him what I suggested he do.

I have no idea what the court will say or do when this comes before the bench.

As far as I know today the A&P-IA still has the log, and he isn't in jail, and the owner isn't available.
 
Tom-D said:
You must remember I only knew what the owner told me, until I investigated my self.

The owner apparently didn't like my advise because I have not heard from him since I e-mailed him what I suggested he do.

I have no idea what the court will say or do when this comes before the bench.

As far as I know today the A&P-IA still has the log, and he isn't in jail, and the owner isn't available.
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And you posted the whole story on the internet.......

Ya got a good attorney??:dunno::dunno::yes:..

Because you can bet the owner will find this site and secure the transcripts of this thread and the "New Customer" one and use it as evidence in a law suit...

Ps... You cannot safely delete your posts as they are archived and can be seized by the courts..
 
N801BH said:
And you posted the whole story on the internet.......

Ya got a good attorney??:dunno::dunno::yes:..

Because you can bet the owner will find this site and secure the transcripts of this thread and the "New Customer" one and use it as evidence in a law suit...

Ps... You cannot safely delete your posts as they are archived and can be seized by the courts..
Click to expand...

IF the judge wants to read this thread I'll link them in.

now you know why I wouldn't scan in the W/O and post them. no names either.
 
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