FBO/CRS/A&P/ protection

[Tom-D]

What legal tools do the maintenance side of our industry have to collect what is owed to them?

Can they keep your aircraft, or the logs? Liens that never get paid.

What can we maintenance type do to protect our selves?

 

[ChitDisturber]

For our school we bill after each flight, worse case we eat a hour or so.


As for logs, aint your property bud, dont try to keep other peoples stuff.

Be sure you provide a estimate for work and have it SIGNED, have any work outside of the estimate approved via email, etc.

If youre worried collect on the estimate before starting work.

If you get stung go to court, file a lien, go from there.

 

[RotorAndWing]

What legal tools do the maintenance side of our industry have to collect what is owed to them?

Can they keep your aircraft, or the logs? Liens that never get paid.

What can we maintenance type do to protect our selves?

The same thing car dealers do. Sign a work order, read the fine print.

Don't return the aircraft until the bill is paid in full. If owner doesn't claim aircraft/ pay bill sell said aircraft to recover loss.

The car dealers don't have the problems aircraft maintenance providers do, or marinas for that matter.

 

[ChitDisturber]

The same thing car dealers do. Sign a work order, read the fine print.

Don't return the aircraft until the bill is paid in full. If owner doesn't claim aircraft/ pay bill sell said aircraft to recover loss.

The car dealers don't have the problems aircraft maintenance providers do, or marinas for that matter.

Careful with that

 

[Tom-D]

For our school we bill after each flight, worse case we eat a hour or so.


As for logs, aint your property bud, dont try to keep other peoples stuff.

Be sure you provide a estimate for work and have it SIGNED, have any work outside of the estimate approved via email, etc.

If youre worried collect on the estimate before starting work.

If you get stung go to court, file a lien, go from there.

Sounds like you are trying to protect the owner pilot, not the wrench benders.

 

[Tom-D]

Careful with that

When you sign a work order that says payment due prior to delivery of the maintenance records or aircraft, doesn't that mean anything to you ?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Careful with that

Why?

When I use to take my car to the dealer they would have me sign a work order. On the work order it stated that if I didn't pay the bill I had so many days and then the vehicle would be sold to recover the money.

Same thing with a motorbike dealer, same thing with the marina.

You don't get your car/motorbike/boat back without paying the bill, period.

In aviation people expect their airplane to be inspected or worked on then "I'll send you a check later".

 

[warthog1984]

Put all your estimates in writing, with specific work to be done.

Get written authorization for all work, including amount and details.

Collect payment before release, file a lien and hire a collection agency if checks bounce.

And... be honest and upfront.

 

[Tom-D]

Put all your estimates in writing, with specific work to be done.

Get written authorization for all work, including amount and details.

Collect payment before release, file a lien and hire a collection agency if checks bounce.

And... be honest and upfront.

How about you knowing what you need, bring the parts, I supervise you in there installation, you do the log book entry, you pay me to sign " under the supervision of "

 

[Tom-D]

In aviation people expect their airplane to be inspected or worked on then "I'll send you a check later".

Thankfully I don't have any of them and plan on keeping it that way.

 

[poadeleted20]

There are quite a few good books on this subject, starting with several chapters in J. Scott Hamilton's "Practical Aviation Law, 4th ed.", as well as any number of books on small business legal issues.

 

[Tom-D]

There are quite a few good books on this subject, starting with several chapters in J. Scott Hamilton's "Practical Aviation Law, 4th ed.", as well as any number of books on small business legal issues.

Which one of those books will tell me how to lock up an aircraft in a hangar that I need for my next customer?

Many of the freelanced A&Ps only have 1 hangar space, if we lock up your aircraft in it we put our selves out of business.

When we work in your hangar how would we lock the aircraft in there?

If we keep the logs until payment is made the lawyers get involved and the profit we would have made goes to them.

With this attitude, is it any wonder it is getting more and more difficult to find some one to work on your aircraft with out going to the large FBO maintenance facility and paying their overhead?

 

[ChitDisturber]

Sounds like you are trying to protect the owner pilot, not the wrench benders.

I'm protecting both sides.

This stuff never gets to that point if you have good paperwork, communicate with the customer and use some damn common sense and don't let large bills build up.

As for the lien laws, they vary from state to state.

I had a sleaze bag AP do annual on a plane, guy goes off and did over 3k worth of work he was NOT authorized to do. The scammer tried to tell me that the plane needed the work so he did it, said we wasn't going to give the books back until he got his payout.

Long and short I got the books back, he didn't get his money and was NOT able to file a lien per CA state law, due to not having a signed estimate or proof of a change to the old estimate.

On larger estimates collect up front, keeps things from getting crazy after you're done and there is a large bill to pay.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm protecting both sides.
Not really,
This stuff never gets to that point if you have good paperwork, communicate with the customer and use some damn common sense and don't let large bills build up.

And when a customer gives you cart blanch ? and the aircraft needs the work?

As for the lien laws, they vary from state to state.

I had a sleaze bag AP do annual on a plane, guy goes off and did over 3k worth of work he was NOT authorized to do. The scammer tried to tell me that the plane needed the work so he did it, said we wasn't going to give the books back until he got his payout.

What he should have done is disassemble the aircraft and be ready to show you the discrepancies, and when you refused to do the work, pile the mess on the ramp and tell you to get lost.

Long and short I got the books back, he didn't get his money and was NOT able to file a lien per CA state law, due to not having a signed estimate or proof of a change to the old estimate.

I simply refuse to do business with anyone I believe will not pay for what they get.

On larger estimates collect up front, keeps things from getting crazy after you're done and there is a large bill to pay.

Often the owner will authorize the work to be done, and them simply be unable to pay the bill. life changes for day to day. and there is no way to prevent this from happening, and so allowances must be made for both parties to get the situation resolved.

I'm seeing a trend in your posts that you are very anti-mechanic and that is the very attitude I avoid as my customers.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Originally Posted by ChitDisturber
I'm protecting both sides.
Not really,
...OK

This stuff never gets to that point if you have good paperwork, communicate with the customer and use some damn common sense and don't let large bills build up.

And when a customer gives you cart blanch ? and the aircraft needs the work?

I would still give an estimate IAW State law, I'd also take payment to start the work

As for the lien laws, they vary from state to state.

I had a sleaze bag AP do annual on a plane, guy goes off and did over 3k worth of work he was NOT authorized to do. The scammer tried to tell me that the plane needed the work so he did it, said we wasn't going to give the books back until he got his payout.

What he should have done is disassemble the aircraft and be ready to show you the discrepancies, and when you refused to do the work, pile the mess on the ramp and tell you to get lost.

And he would have been in further violation of the state law, he would have paid for damages and he would probably have done well to look behind his back after that stunt, some folks take those actions personally

You dont just go off and start doing work without permission, heck maybe I should show up at your house at night, repaint it while you sleep, send you a bill for 15k, then change the locks and put a lien on it if you dont pay up?

Long and short I got the books back, he didn't get his money and was NOT able to file a lien per CA state law, due to not having a signed estimate or proof of a change to the old estimate.

I simply refuse to do business with anyone I believe will not pay for what they get.

They have to FIRST know and agree to what they're getting Tom!!!!


It's just easier to follow the State and Fed law and use a little common sense, provide an estimate, collect up front unless you have a long standing track record with the customer, keep the customer in the loop so you dont spring some crazy bill he isnt expecting or budgeting for and keep records (email, texts, signed paper, etc)

12345

 

[poadeleted20]

Which one of those books will tell me how to lock up an aircraft in a hangar that I need for my next customer?

Many of the freelanced A&Ps only have 1 hangar space, if we lock up your aircraft in it we put our selves out of business.

When we work in your hangar how would we lock the aircraft in there?

If we keep the logs until payment is made the lawyers get involved and the profit we would have made goes to them.

With this attitude, is it any wonder it is getting more and more difficult to find some one to work on your aircraft with out going to the large FBO maintenance facility and paying their overhead?

Tell you what, Tom -- you start by reading Hamilton's book in its entirety and we'll go from there.

 

[Tom-D]

Tell you what, Tom -- you start by reading Hamilton's book in its entirety and we'll go from there.

If I were wanting to be a quasi lawyer I'd do that, I'm more interested in what words I can write on paper that will protect me from a dead beat owner.

Words on a work order don't work.
Words spoken don't work.

Locking the aircraft in the hangar won't work either

But I guess you think reading a big old book will.

 

[Seanaldinho]

Now Im not a smart man but it seems to me that your work as an AP/IA is not complete until you sign the log book correct?

Sign the logs in front of the owner upon recieving payment.

 

[Tom-D]

Now Im not a smart man but it seems to me that your work as an AP/IA is not complete until you sign the log book correct?

Sign the logs in front of the owner upon recieving payment.

And that is about where you need to be, cash and carry.

 

[Seanaldinho]

And that is about where you need to be, cash and carry.

Simple enough and keeps everyone honest.

 

[jesse]

Now Im not a smart man but it seems to me that your work as an AP/IA is not complete until you sign the log book correct?

Sign the logs in front of the owner upon recieving payment.

Why would an owner care if there is a logbook entry saying work was done? The problem was fixed. If the entry never happens then the item never broke.

 

[Tom-D]

Originally Posted by Tom-D
Originally Posted by ChitDisturber
I'm protecting both sides.
Not really,
...OK

This stuff never gets to that point if you have good paperwork, communicate with the customer and use some damn common sense and don't let large bills build up.

I know of several cases that the owner authorized the work with a known cost, and after the work was completed the owner refused to pay, the only method of collecting is a lien or a collection agent. both take the profit we earned.

And when a customer gives you cart blanch ? and the aircraft needs the work?

I would still give an estimate IAW State law, I'd also take payment to start the work

As for the lien laws, they vary from state to state.

I had a sleaze bag AP do annual on a plane, guy goes off and did over 3k worth of work he was NOT authorized to do. The scammer tried to tell me that the plane needed the work so he did it, said we wasn't going to give the books back until he got his payout.

What he should have done is disassemble the aircraft and be ready to show you the discrepancies, and when you refused to do the work, pile the mess on the ramp and tell you to get lost.

And he would have been in further violation of the state law, he would have paid for damages and he would probably have done well to look behind his back after that stunt, some folks take those actions personally.

there are many aircraft setting on the line after the owner refused to buy the necessary parts or sign the work order for the unfinished discrepancies. I would simply close it up preserve the material place it n the aircraft and park it outside and give you a call to deal with it.

You dont just go off and start doing work without permission, heck maybe I should show up at your house at night, repaint it while you sleep, send you a bill for 15k, then change the locks and put a lien on it if you dont pay up?

Long and short I got the books back, he didn't get his money and was NOT able to file a lien per CA state law, due to not having a signed estimate or proof of a change to the old estimate.

I simply refuse to do business with anyone I believe will not pay for what they get.

They have to FIRST know and agree to what they're getting Tom!!!!


It's just easier to follow the State and Fed law and use a little common sense, provide an estimate, collect up front unless you have a long standing track record with the customer, keep the customer in the loop so you dont spring some crazy bill he isnt expecting or budgeting for and keep records (email, texts, signed paper, etc)

none of the things will cause a dead beat owner from changing their minds and not paying.

the only real protection we freelanced A&Ps have is knowing our customers and building a relationship of trust, that requires time and responsibility on both parts.

That is why we see fewer and fewer A&Ps working with out being under the insurance umbrella protection of the large FBO, resulting in higher and higher prices, which in turn causes fewer and fewer owners affording to own, thus all the junk on the ramp not being maintained by anyone.

 

[poadeleted20]

Now Im not a smart man but it seems to me that your work as an AP/IA is not complete until you sign the log book correct?

Sign the logs in front of the owner upon recieving payment.

The FAA does not give you the option of withholding your signature until payment. See 14 CFR 43.9. Local law, however, generally gives you legal authority to retain possession of both aircraft and logs until paid. The problem arises when, like Tom, you work on a plane without taking possession (e.g., in the owner's hangar instead of your shop). Then you need to do the things discussed in Hamilton's book (which really isn't that big) or any of a few dozen books on running a small business to ensure payment. If Tom doesn't want to educate himself on the legal aspects of small business management, he has only himself to blame if he becomes another failing small business operated by a technical expert lacking in business management knowledge/skills -- a too-common occurrence in aviation.

 

[N801BH]

What legal tools do the maintenance side of our industry have to collect what is owed to them?

Can they keep your aircraft, or the logs? Liens that never get paid.

What can we maintenance type do to protect our selves?

Two threads in the last couple of days... from you dealing with VERY similar issues........

And you are not posting any updated on the other thread about the "New Customer"....

My guess is you screwed someone. they beat you out of your scam money and now you are looking for answers using a different tact....

I was born at night............ But not LAST night....

 

[Tom-D]

Two threads in the last couple of days... from you dealing with VERY similar issues........

And you are not posting any updated on the other thread about the "New Customer"....

My guess is you screwed someone. they beat you out of your scam money and now you are looking for answers using a different tact....

I was born at night............ But not LAST night....

What lead you to believe that? Don't look now but your attitude toward A&Ps is showing.

There have been no up dates on that thread because there is nothing to add. The issue is over. I made my advise to the owner, now it is out of my hands. I guess my not allowing you to drift the thread is Pizzing you off.

OBTW, I didn't charge for any of the 2 days I spent chasing the details of the issue.

I do not have any customers that would cheat me. your believing that they would is a big reflection on you.

I started this thread because of the attitude shown by you and others in the "new customer" thread, on how quick you would draw blood on any A&P with out knowing what occurred or having any knowledge of the incidence.

 

[N801BH]

What lead you to believe that? Don't look now but your attitude toward A&Ps is showing.

There have been no up dates on that thread because there is nothing to add. The issue is over. I made my advise to the owner, now it is out of my hands. I guess my not allowing you to drift the thread is Pizzing you off.

OBTW, I didn't charge for any of the 2 days I spent chasing the details of the issue.

I do not have any customers that would cheat me. your believing that they would is a big reflection on you.

I started this thread because of the attitude shown by you and others in the "new customer" thread, on how quick you would draw blood on any A&P with out knowing what occurred or having any knowledge of the incidence.

I can't wait till someone... ie, YOU... Post the details of the 10 years of invoices you said you read and "claimed" totaled 50 THOUSAND dollars.. On the fixed gear plane no less.. Unless it got a new motor and prop I will guess the mechanic you are now sticking up for now completely SCREWED that "new Customer"..

Your silence is deafening.......

Ps... You have got down 20 pegs on my trust meter...

 

[rpadula]

There are quite a few good books on this subject, starting with several chapters in J. Scott Hamilton's "Practical Aviation Law, 4th ed.", as well as any number of books on small business legal issues.

Ron, FYI, I looked it up on Amazon out of curiosity, and this book is now at the 5th edition (2011).

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, FYI, I looked it up on Amazon out of curiosity, and this book is now at the 5th edition (2011).

Scott's been busy -- thanks. Now to order it...

 

[Tom-D]

I can't wait till someone... ie, YOU... Post the details of the 10 years of invoices you said you read and "claimed" totaled 50 THOUSAND dollars.. On the fixed gear plane no less.. Unless it got a new motor and prop I will guess the mechanic you are now sticking up for now completely SCREWED that "new Customer"..

Your silence is deafening.......

Ps... You have got down 20 pegs on my trust meter...

I wouldn't post your info either.

the 172 did get a rebuilt IO360- and a prop all on those W/Os plus a radio upgrade and you think 50 large is too much over 10 years get real.

And the Maintenance facility is on the hook for much of it?

not my kind of customer.

 

[N801BH]

I wouldn't post your info either.

the 172 did get a rebuilt IO360- and a prop all on those W/Os plus a radio upgrade and you think 50 large is too much over 10 years get real.

And the Maintenance facility is on the hook for much of it?

not my kind of customer.

And that is ALL your story..... with nothing to confirm any of this actually happened.......


Your trust meter just went down some more...

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA does not give you the option of withholding your signature until payment. See 14 CFR 43.9. Local law, however, generally gives you legal authority to retain possession of both aircraft and logs until paid. The problem arises when, like Tom, you work on a plane without taking possession (e.g., in the owner's hangar instead of your shop). Then you need to do the things discussed in Hamilton's book (which really isn't that big) or any of a few dozen books on running a small business to ensure payment. If Tom doesn't want to educate himself on the legal aspects of small business management, he has only himself to blame if he becomes another failing small business operated by a technical expert lacking in business management knowledge/skills -- a too-common occurrence in aviation.

Holding the aircraft is self defeating in the case of freelanced A&P working out of 1 hangar, it virtually puts us out of business.

Holding the logs simply gets the Lawyers involved and there goes the profit.

With holding our signatures is not allowed by FAR, but the FARs do not say when we must complete the entry, simply because we determine when the work is completed. And I'm not done until I say I'm done.

My PMI is totally on board with not signing the logs until we get paid, As are most of the FAA maintenance types, so it won't make much sense to whine to them about not paying your bill until the logs are filled out.

 

[Tom-D]

And that is ALL you story..... with nothing to confirm any of this actually happened.......


Your trust meter just went down some more...

What ever ben, this isn't about if you trust me or not.

 

[Tom-D]

If Tom doesn't want to educate himself on the legal aspects of small business management, he has only himself to blame if he becomes another failing small business operated by a technical expert lacking in business management knowledge/skills -- a too-common occurrence in aviation.

Ron misses a couple points.

This isn't about me loosing money, I get paid for every thing I do with out problems.

This thread isn't about how to run a small business, it is about A&P/Customer relations and how we protect each other.

Plus it is very easy to read many of the posts that have been made by people here most are vary bias in their opinion of A&Ps.

But I guess that is why they call it "Pilots of America".

 

[JoseCuervo]

Can you put some sort of "Denver Boot" on all planes in your "custody"?

Sort of a "don't want any damn thieves stealing your plane while I am working on it, I do it for all of them" kind of thing.

 

[Brad Z]

All I can say is loosy goosey businesses attract loosey goosey customers. Business by a nod and a handshake is great--until there's a disagreement on what was agreed to. Put your payment policies in writing, use written estimates, and keep good records, and you'll "scare off" the deadbeat customers who figure you'll mean business when it comes to payment.

 

[Tom-D]

All I can say is loosy goosey businesses attract loosey goosey customers. Business by a nod and a handshake is great--until there's a disagreement on what was agreed to. Put your payment policies in writing, use written estimates, and keep good records, and you'll "scare off" the deadbeat customers who figure you'll mean business when it comes to payment.

I maintain my friends aircraft, my friends don't screw me. they know once is too many. and their cost of flying will go way up when they do. It's only occurred once in 20 plus years doing this.

I was maintaining a 172 for the use of it. the owner screwed me on gas, I told him that was not right, he basically said FU. I simply said bye bye have a nice day. His annual was due the next month, he found out what the real cost of gas was.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

If I were wanting to be a quasi lawyer I'd do that, I'm more interested in what words I can write on paper that will protect me from a dead beat owner.

I would hire a lawyer to draft the forms I use to detail any work/cost estimates. Include a section on exactly what is being agreed to, how changes in the estimate will be handled, and what happens if payment isn't rendered on time.

I wonder if it would be legal to include verbage that says all legal costs involved in collecting any unpaid debt will be added to the bill?

I'm not a mechanic, nor am I a lawyer, but I did stay in a holiday inn express once.

 

[Dr. O]

Hmmm, don't have a dog in this fight but I have watched it go on for over a half century.
A number of airplanes have been sold at a sheriff's auction to pay a mechanics lien, that I have personally observed.
Michigan has a mechanics lien law and it has real teeth.
Pay your bill or else.


One in particular was a real soap opera. Fella refused to pay the mechanic. Broke into the shop at night and tried to remove the plane (dog bit the crap out of him and an ambulance had to haul him away) and he tried to sue the mechanic for his injuries (judge dismissed the case)
Claimed the mechanic cheated him and changed parts that were not bad, etc. etc. Problem was that some of the regulars at the airport had been present when the owner and the mechanic looked at the defective parts - mags, oil cooler, gyro, etc. (plane was a piece of junk when it was brought to the shop) They verified that the owner told the mechanic to do the work and that he had been told what the work was estimated to cost.
So, at the auction the owner shows up and makes a big scene and hands the sheriff a check to pay the bill. Sheriff informs him he is too late and that the sheriff now owns the plane per a Judge's order - and if he wants to bid on it the auction is cash money only. Then the guy starts swearing at the bidders and when he is ordered to stop interrupting he shoves the sheriff. So at the end of the day he goes to jail and his plane goes to a new owner for ten dollars more than the bill. Mechanic goes over to the sheriff's car where the guy is in the back seat in handcuffs and stuffs a ten dollar bill into his shirt pocket. Sheriff drives away with the guy trying to kick the back windows out.
Bad things happen when you don't pay the mechanic.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I would hire a lawyer to draft the forms I use to detail any work/cost estimates. Include a section on exactly what is being agreed to, how changes in the estimate will be handled, and what happens if payment isn't rendered on time.

I wonder if it would be legal to include verbage that says all legal costs involved in collecting any unpaid debt will be added to the bill?

I'm not a mechanic, nor am I a lawyer, but I did stay in a holiday inn express once.

Yes to most of this.

A more robust contract that addresses the concerns is needed. Put in writing the terms the mechanic agrees to. The owner can sign or not.

99% of customers won't read the damn thing, so they will remain customers and go on. 1% will read it! and as long as the terms are "fair" (you pay your damned bill), most people wont object.

Still have the occasional "tragedy" that prevents someone from writing a check. Hopefully there is a clause that addresses the non-payment. (Late fees, interest, possession, arbitration, controlling law, jurisdiction, arbitration, etc).

Most people and businesses don't like to go thru courts, most don't like suing or being sued, most people pay their bills, most mechanics are reasonable. A robust contract keeps people this way.


My advice would be to take your car to the local new car dealer for an oil change and snag a copy of their Service Agreement. Do the same at the local John Deere dealer. Same at the Cat Dealer. Grab all the Terms and Conditions and start typing.

 

[Tom-D]

Hmmm, don't have a dog in this fight but I have watched it go on for over a half century.
A number of airplanes have been sold at a sheriff's auction to pay a mechanics lien, that I have personally observed.
Michigan has a mechanics lien law and it has real teeth.
Pay your bill or else.


One in particular was a real soap opera. Fella refused to pay the mechanic. Broke into the shop at night and tried to remove the plane (dog bit the crap out of him and an ambulance had to haul him away) and he tried to sue the mechanic for his injuries (judge dismissed the case)
Claimed the mechanic cheated him and changed parts that were not bad, etc. etc. Problem was that some of the regulars at the airport had been present when the owner and the mechanic looked at the defective parts - mags, oil cooler, gyro, etc. (plane was a piece of junk when it was brought to the shop) They verified that the owner told the mechanic to do the work and that he had been told what the work was estimated to cost.
So, at the auction the owner shows up and makes a big scene and hands the sheriff a check to pay the bill. Sheriff informs him he is too late and that the sheriff now owns the plane per a Judge's order - and if he wants to bid on it the auction is cash money only. Then the guy starts swearing at the bidders and when he is ordered to stop interrupting he shoves the sheriff. So at the end of the day he goes to jail and his plane goes to a new owner for ten dollars more than the bill. Mechanic goes over to the sheriff's car where the guy is in the back seat in handcuffs and stuffs a ten dollar bill into his shirt pocket. Sheriff drives away with the guy trying to kick the back windows out.
Bad things happen when you don't pay the mechanic.

That's golden..