Favorite/Most Difficult IAP's?

dtuuri said:
If you only slide a little bit southwest... you're "semi-circling".
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Dude, just admit you were wrong with your "nope." Everyone else here on the board knows that you are wrong no matter what you type.
 
Clark1961 said:
A little familiarity with the local topography helps. The blue lines show where the Land at Eagle and avoid all that. Of course that didn't work out too well for a couple of guys from Texas a few years ago...so land in Denver and avoid all that.
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Yup. As many times as I've flown the approaches into Aspen and Eagle in King Airs and various business jets I wouldn't try it in actual in a small airplane.
 
Clark1961 said:
Dude, just admit you were wrong with your "nope." Everyone else here on the board knows that you are wrong no matter what you type.
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I'm right no matter what YOU type. If you could have proved it you'd have done so, but you know or should know you'd be wrong. Everskyward has conceded the point:

Everskyward said:
I agree that just past the MAP right might be better. ...you can slide a bit to the right to give you more room for the circle to the left.
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You should too.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Everskyward has conceded the point:
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Um no. Clark is correct. You retrenched after your initial "nope" and I pointed out the published traffic pattern in the AF/D. Moving slighty to the right of centerline is not "circling southwest". The circle is to the northeast, just as I stated.
 
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dtuuri said:
A go-around for 15 or circling. The phrase "circle to the left (or right)" is ambiguous to me, since it could be taken to mean either counter-clockwise (or clockwise) or mean veer left/right of the final approach course. I assume at ASE, unless really wierd conditions, nobody lands downhill on 33 in a jet. So I commented based on "(meaning northeast)".

dtuuri
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I guess "really wierd conditions" includes tailwinds on 15 that exceed aircraft limitations...10 knots on everything I've flown. I've landed on 33 in a jet more than once.
 
Everskyward said:
Um no. Clark is correct. You retrenched after your initial "nope" and I pointed out the published traffic pattern in the AF/D. Moving slighty to the right of centerline is not "circling southwest". The circle is to the northeast, just as I stated.
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Nope again. You self-imposed a circling limit northeast of the runway centerline and "retrenched" to include a "little bit" of space on the other side too. I would go as far as possible to have more room for a crosswind to downwind circling maneuver. When I wrote "circling southwest" it was obvious that I did not intend for the airplane to stay southwest of the centerline which would be impossible AFAIK. Only someone with an abnormal fetish to try to find fault with my posts would pounce on that (and he did). I would characterize my way as simply a "circle to land" without restriction.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Nope again. You self-imposed a circling limit northeast of the runway centerline and "retrenched" to include a "little bit" of space on the other side too. I would go as far as possible to have more room for a crosswind to downwind circling maneuver. When I wrote "circling southwest" it was obvious that I did not intend for the airplane to stay southwest of the centerline which would be impossible AFAIK. Only someone with an abnormal fetish to try to find fault with my posts would pounce on that (and he did). I would characterize my way as simply a "circle to land" without restriction.

dtuuri
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Are you kidding? You answered my (correct) explanation with a one word answer "nope" and you think I'm the one with a fetish?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I guess "really wierd conditions" includes tailwinds on 15 that exceed aircraft limitations...10 knots on everything I've flown. I've landed on 33 in a jet more than once.
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If you can do it I can too. :D I'm just passing on what the locals said. IIRC, the runway gradient is (coincidentally) the maximum allowed, so it would be interesting to see how much tailwind landing upslope negates. Or how much headwind offsets the downhill gradient. The folks based there told me jets almost always land 15 and takeoff 33. :dunno:

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
If you can do it I can too. :D I'm just passing on what the locals said. IIRC, the runway gradient is (coincidentally) the maximum allowed, so it would be interesting to see how much tailwind landing upslope negates. Or how much headwind offsets the downhill gradient. The folks based there told me jets almost always land 15 and takeoff 33. :dunno:

dtuuri
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"Almost" always...if it's illegal to land on 15, most of us will do something else.
 
Everskyward said:
Are you kidding? You answered my (correct) explanation with a one word answer "nope" and you think I'm the one with a fetish?
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You now agree it's better not to circle northeast! Circling with a compass restriction means all your maneuvering must stay on that side of the runway. That's a nope.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
The folks based there told me jets almost always land 15 and takeoff 33. :dunno:
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Almost always is not the same as always. As Mauleskinner pointed out, most jets (all that I have flown) have a 10 knot maximum tailwind component for landing.
 
dtuuri said:
You now agree it's better not to circle northeast!
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You have lost it now. I never said that. In fact I said the opposite. Left traffic for 15 is circling northeast. Which I have done. A number of times. I've also done right traffic to 33. Just as it says in the AF/D.
 
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Everskyward said:
You have lost it now. I never said that. In fact I said the opposite. Left traffic for 15 is circling northeast. Which I have done. A number of times. I've also done right traffic to 33. Just as it says in the AF/D.
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To refresh your memory, you originally brought up the subject as it applies to a go-around below MDA--in light of my personal experience on that exact subject in that exact place, I took issue with the northeast restriction.

It's late here and I think there's enough homework here for the newbies to research, like how do controllers give circling instructions and what does the AIM say about what kind of flight path is expected and what do mountain pilots say about canyon turns and which is better, landing uphill with a tailwind or downhill with a headwind. G'night.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
To refresh your memory, you originally brought up the subject as it applies to a go-around below MDA--in light of my personal experience on that exact subject in that exact place, I took issue with the northeast restriction.
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I never used the word "restriction". However left traffic puts you on the northeast side of the runway. You can take issue with it and go around the way you want to go around. I don't feel the need to control how others fly. I was answering Kent's question about what I would do when you jumped in. I would go around circling to the northeast in left traffic. But the airplane I fly climbs far better than a 182 although it has a larger turning radius.



dtuuri said:
It's late here and I think there's enough homework here for the newbies to research, like how do controllers give circling instructions
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Controllers give circling instructions just as I said, left traffic to 15 and right traffic to 33.
 
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dtuuri said:
I'm right no matter what YOU type.
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Okay, so now you've admitted that you are a psychopath...perhaps some day with treatment you'll be able to admit what reality is...perhaps not.
 
Everskyward said:
Controllers give circling instructions just as I said, left traffic to 15 and right traffic to 33.
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Here's how it should be done, from Order 7110.65V, my bold:
4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH

a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft landing at airports with operational control towers.

b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the runway in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that aligned with the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of the circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required, state the direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left or right base/downwind leg as appropriate.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CIRCLE TO RUNWAY (number),

or

CIRCLE (direction using eight cardinal compass points) OF THE AIRPORT/RUNWAY FOR A LEFT/RIGHT BASE/DOWNWIND TO RUNWAY (number).
​
Your words, "Circle to the left (meaning northeast)," off a straight-in IFR approach seemed ambiguous to me in the context of circling instructions. In the context of VFR traffic patterns, maybe not as much, but I would prefer to hear something like, "Go around, stay right of the centerline, make left traffic for runway 15."

dtuuri
 
Clark1961 said:
Okay, so now you've admitted that you are a psychopath...perhaps some day with treatment you'll be able to admit what reality is...perhaps not.
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If I ever need treatment I'll see if your doctor can keep me flying too.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Your words, "Circle to the left (meaning northeast)," off a straight-in IFR approach seemed ambiguous to me in the context of circling instructions. In the context of VFR traffic patterns, maybe not as much, but I would prefer to hear something like, "Go around, stay right of the centerline, make left traffic for runway 15."

dtuuri
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I obviously wasn't trying to play controller using the exact terminology they would use and it doesn't change which direction they would ask you to circle. This is a just an online conversation, which is about to be over because you are doing the same thing you do in every thread you participate in. You come up with some irrelevant quote to support the way you want the world to work. You have done it in the thread about logging commercial time, the one about traffic patterns at uncontrolled airports and the multiple threads about filing flight plans.
 
Everskyward said:
This is a just an online conversation, which is about to be over because you are doing the same thing you do in every thread you participate in. You come up with some irrelevant quote to support the way you want the world to work. You have done it in the thread about logging commercial time, the one about traffic patterns at uncontrolled airports and the multiple threads about filing flight plans.
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Have a nice day! You could use the time off to bone up on those subjects.

dtuuri
 
Here are a couple of 1:24,000 topos of Aspen. This makes it apparent that circling to the east is what professionals do and, in fact, is what the tower sometimes directs for spacing when weather permits:

http://www.terps.com/ase
 
dtuuri said:
If I ever need treatment I'll see if your doctor can keep me flying too.
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Sorry, my doctor doesn't treat mental illness. He can probably refer you to someone who does.
 
Wait. So you mean someone who routinely flies in to ASE actually knows what's going on vs someone who flew in there once 40 years ago with some hearsay knowledge?

I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked!
 
aterpster said:
This one is lined up with the runway and comes over some nasty terrain (and rather steeply)
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The charted approach isn't real steep here, it is simply a circling approach so it isn't really 'lined up' or not doesn't make any difference. I don't think anybody in his/her right mind would attempt a straight in approach here. All circling approaches could be potentially harder.
 
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olasek said:
The charted approach isn't real steep here, it is simply a circling approach so it isn't really 'lined up' or not doesn't make any difference. I don't think anybody in his/her right mind would attempt a straight in approach here. All circling approaches could be potentially harder.
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Nobody does it from MDA, but the rule of thumb for most pilots that I know is if you can't see the runway by the FAF, you go missed. If you can see it at the FAF, you go to idle (you're already fully configured), and make like a brick to land on 15.
 
Say what??
MDA here is over 1900 AGL. Not high enough?
I never heard about a rule "nobody does it from MDA", nobody taught me such wisdom.
Why on rwy 15?? What about winds??
 
olasek said:
Say what??
MDA here is over 1900 AGL. Not high enough?
I never heard about a rule "nobody does it from MDA", nobody taught me such wisdom.
Why on rwy 15?? What about winds??
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If your airplane can make a straight-in to 15 after a normal descent to MDA, more power to ya. None of the ones I've flown can, and my post was solely about landing straight in on 15 as a response to the post quoted.
 
?? your posts make little sense to me, how can you land 'straight on 15' if approach is lined up with 33. I doubt we are looking at the same plate.
 
olasek said:
Say what??
MDA here is over 1900 AGL. Not high enough?
I never heard about a rule "nobody does it from MDA", nobody taught me such wisdom.
Why on rwy 15?? What about winds??
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MauleSkinner used the phrase "rule of thumb", not "rule".

If you are at the MAP at the MDA the descent angle is too steep to land straight in. You can circle to 15 using left traffic but many choose not to do this and miss if they do not break out by the FAF instead, which is fine. You can circle to 33 if the winds are too strong out of the northwest to land on 15 but you need to be a Category C or less. Many choose not to do that too, which is also fine.
 
olasek said:
?? your posts make little sense to me, how can you land 'straight on 15' if approach is lined up with 33. I doubt we are looking at the same plate.
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Look at the plate again. There is no approach from the south. They all come in from the north.
 
Interesting, if approach course is 331 deg, does it come from the North or South?? :rolleyes2:
 
No, I was referring from the very beginning to the plate for UKI. :dunno:

Where is FAC :confused:
 
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olasek said:
No, I was referring from the very beginning to the plate for UKI. :dunno:

Where is FAC :confused:
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I think Ed abbreviated "final approach course" as FAC.

We are talking about the approach into Aspen, CO (KASE).
 
Everskyward said:
I think Ed abbreviated "final approach course" as FAC.

We are talking about the approach into Aspen, CO (KASE).
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Yes, I did. And it does appear that olasek is talking about a completely different approach, so that would explain the confusion.
 
olasek said:
The charted approach isn't real steep here, it is simply a circling approach so it isn't really 'lined up' or not doesn't make any difference. I don't think anybody in his/her right mind would attempt a straight in approach here. All circling approaches could be potentially harder.
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Folks, we're talking about RNAV-A at KUKI.

You give pilots more credit than I do, at least some of them.
 
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