Fatal ICON A5 crash

Tantalum said:
I think @gsengle is right, regardless of the cause the overall perception is going to be stigmatized from this...
Click to expand...

Some here seem to have forgotten that Cirrus lost its first production SR20 and the chief test pilot of the SR20 program, Major Scott Anderson, when an aileron jammed. It was not fitted with the CAPS parachute. Nevertheless Cirrus customers starting taking delivery of their planes later that same year.

No telling how this will impact Icon in the longer run, but clearly it is not impossible for a company to recover from such an event.
 
We've now lost 2 of I believe 8 icons. And no I didn't forget about the Cirrus... I still won't buy one as I personally am not satisfied with their safety...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
citizen5000 said:
The large AOA instrument in the middle of a proprietary panel along with the proprietary "spin proof" design (which they needed and got a weight exception for) was being hyped by them as a near fool-proof plane no other design could claim. These accidents are destroying that notion.

The target customer appeared to be yacht owners looking for a way to park the plane on their boats and use them to get to shore and back. Small/light, boat hull, folding wings, two seat commuting configuation and VERY expensive compared to other LSA.
Click to expand...

You must be on Cirrus' payroll. Your posts are becoming entirely predictable. :lol:
 
At least if they flew it into wires it gets the design off the hook.

What it does do is highlight the dangers inherent to its targeted use...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gsengle said:
What it does do is highlight the dangers inherent to its targeted use...
Click to expand...
That's been my main issue with Icon, their marketing and targeted use seems reckless. Even if the design itself proves to be not inherently unsafe then I still think we'll see an atypically high accident rate from this bird since the marketing suggests it's meant to buzz around fjords and waterways close to the ground... it also shows turns in the water with the wing near striking it

I get there are dangerous toys getting marketed to people, don't take me for someone who's not willing to have a little fun. But GA's perception suffers enough as it is

upload_2017-5-8_22-38-25.png
 
Here is satellite of the wires and then a close up of the crash. Look at ten and one o'clock. Looks like it's still tangled in a continuous wire.

ea67adf3000e1eaa3352a5884a475b0f.png


31715149aaf6ba97a2b44b73b152d6f4.png



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The shadow of the wires makes it clear what we are looking at. Sad. The pilot must have known the lake very well given the time spent flying there...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yeah, the shadow of the 10 o'clock wire is pretty obvious. The 1 o'clock wire/shadow I couldn't say for sure.
Nice work gsengle.
From that perspective, it looks a little like the wire sliced through the cabin??
 
Skyrys62 said:
Yeah, the shadow of the 10 o'clock wire is pretty obvious. The 1 o'clock wire/shadow I couldn't say for sure.
Nice work gsengle.
From that perspective, it looks a little like the wire sliced through the cabin??
Click to expand...

Yeah pretty horrifying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Actually now look at the 1oclock wire from a different vantage now that you know what you're looking for. Complete with shadow.

1deeeac7abb01c968c9f9444e4647221.png



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Skyrys62 said:
Yeah, the shadow of the 10 o'clock wire is pretty obvious. The 1 o'clock wire/shadow I couldn't say for sure.
Nice work gsengle.
From that perspective, it looks a little like the wire sliced through the cabin??
Click to expand...
Looks like they were deceased before they ever hit the ground. Very sad
 
Appears based on shadows that the accident is on west shore of Wragg Canyon. Here is a still from helecopter footage of the crash site.

ef15ea9ea8abfddf81db702ea97daff3.png


I can't see wires or towers in that still but this spot with the wires on the west side may match. Maybe wires all pulled down? In google satellite you can just see wires and tower at left.

a4dae0307268dd75c0009987a2747b53.png



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gsengle said:
At least if they flew it into wires it gets the design off the hook.

What it does do is highlight the dangers inherent to its targeted use...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Oh, puhleeze.
 
gsengle said:
Actually now look at the 1oclock wire from a different vantage now that you know what you're looking for. Complete with shadow.
Click to expand...

Nice job reconstructing what may have occurred. This explains the canopy separation from the cockpit. That is just gruesome.
 
The problem is the crash is actually in little Portuguese canyon. Saw a video that made the location clear from a helicopter. Not near wires, hmmm. Maybe they roped it to shore?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I may be wrong but the wires could be there because emergency crews needed to stabilize the wreck and keep it from falling into the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Swampfox201 said:
I may be wrong but the wires could be there because emergency crews needed to stabilize the wreck and keep it from falling into the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Could well be. Otherwise you think such an obvious cause would be reported by now. Also rescuers in videos are not acting shy of what would otherwise be downed power lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Tantalum said:
That's been my main issue with Icon, their marketing and targeted use seems reckless. Even if the design itself proves to be not inherently unsafe then I still think we'll see an atypically high accident rate from this bird since the marketing suggests it's meant to buzz around fjords and waterways close to the ground... it also shows turns in the water with the wing near striking it

I get there are dangerous toys getting marketed to people, don't take me for someone who's not willing to have a little fun. But GA's perception suffers enough as it is

View attachment 53389
Click to expand...

Yes and no

Seaplanes in general fly pretty low, 500-1k, though some of the icon showboating pics go pretty far.

The big thing in my mind is they mix one of the most demanding and dynamic types of flying (amphib), with this anyone can do it, just take what they almost make sound to be a weekend like course and you can do what's you see in our cool videos. That's the issue IMO.

They add the AOA and "spin resistance" and market it as super safe, even though the biggest danger in seaplane ops is when you're taking off or landing, and it's not a stall spin, it's that dead head, nor having enough distance to takeoff and clear trees, power lines, boats, being wind aware without a ATIS or ADSB hand holder, basically all that stuff. And who would have guessed, all of their accidents have not been spin or stall things, they've been standard issue seaplane dangers which are built into that type of flying.

At bare bones LSA minimums it's hard enough to make a proficient trike land plane pilot, to think you're going to do some quick "accelerated" LSA training program and set ink wet LSAers loose in a amphib has always been a flawed concept, with maybe the exception of the ones who have a ton of boating experience.
 
Swampfox201 said:
I may be wrong but the wires could be there because emergency crews needed to stabilize the wreck and keep it from falling into the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm leaning this way too. Based on the direction and tension on the cable/wires.
 
When people on that level have mishaps like this, it makes me wonder why I'm flying. I have tried a few times to sign up for the training program, but it doesn't seem possible unless you're a buyer.

RIP. Be safe out there.
 
New designs often have teething pains, and with airplanes the pains are accompanied by blood. Like the fellas said, test flights are dangerous.
 
steingar said:
New designs often have teething pains, and with airplanes the pains are accompanied by blood. Like the fellas said, test flights are dangerous.
Click to expand...

Yeah except this doesn't seem to be a test flight. He had a new employee along. Looks more like a demo flight....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Looks to me based on "The crash occurred shortly after 9 a.m. next to Little Portuguese Cove at the eastern end of Lake Berryessa between Pleasure Cove Marina and Markley Cove Resort."
and the helicopter shot gsengle provided, that the crash site is here:
upload_2017-5-9_9-54-21.png
Just guessing based on patterns in the terrain.
 
If graphics posted above are accurate, looks like a pretty narrow space to fly/maneuver.
 
GRG55 said:
Some here seem to have forgotten that Cirrus lost its first production SR20 and the chief test pilot of the SR20 program, Major Scott Anderson, when an aileron jammed.
Click to expand...
I forgot about that accident. Wasn't the aileron cartridge though modified slightly for that flight? I haven't read the report in a while but I seem to recall that he was heavily cross controlled and that may have had something to do with the aileron rudder interconnect, I think they were doing some aft CG stall maneuvers, etc.
 
Badger said:
If graphics posted above are accurate, looks like a pretty narrow space to fly/maneuver.
Click to expand...
Yea, if, like I said I was guessing, but here is another angle of that same location, from 2013 google images. the water level looks a bit higher in gsengle's heli photo, but compare that one to this angle(and google smashes the trees onto the surface):
upload_2017-5-9_10-11-46.png
 
to explore distance: right click on map - drop down to measure distance: then double click on other point for measurement. Use satellite view to see tree line.
Of course all this is making assumptions of correct location, and we have no knowledge of their flight path and altitude.
 
Tantalum said:
I forgot about that accident. Wasn't the aileron cartridge though modified slightly for that flight? I haven't read the report in a while but I seem to recall that he was heavily cross controlled and that may have had something to do with the aileron rudder interconnect, I think they were doing some aft CG stall maneuvers, etc.
Click to expand...

I recall it was an inadequate gap between the aileron and the wing trailing edge. In flight testing, the wing flexed enough to close that gap and jam the aileron.

I'll yield to anyone with a more precise recollection, but that's mine.

I think the jamming of the interconnect was a different issue discovered during a preflight checklist - I don't remember that ever causing an in-flight problem.
 
James331 said:
Not that expensive actually, price a carbon cub or the like.
Click to expand...

A carbon cub is a completely different product. The CC uses a 180hp Titan engine engine and is built to STOL standards for backcountry flying, price $205k.

The ICONs competition are other seaplane SLSA with equivalent 100hp Rotax engines and instruments (glass). The ICON price around $200k. The Searey sport is around $120k. The Vickers Wave is $150k.
 
FastEddieB said:
I think the jamming of the interconnect was a different issue discovered during a preflight checklist - I don't remember that ever causing an in-flight problem.
Click to expand...
Yikes... so there were two different jammed controls?! :eek:

Although, I can't recall ever need more than maybe 25% deflection of ailerons while flying (slips excluding)... elevators, yes those routinely go full aft, but ailerons I've never really had to be that aggressive on them...
 
JonH said:
When people on that level have mishaps like this, it makes me wonder why I'm flying. I have tried a few times to sign up for the training program, but it doesn't seem possible unless you're a buyer.

RIP. Be safe out there.
Click to expand...

Do you do low level contact flying through narrow passages with power lines, trees, etc around? The type of flying most GA pilots in land planes do is quite a bit different than the flying that was likely going on in the lake.



I wouldn't bother with their training program, their ads for CFIs have some pretty low mins.

Required Experience:

  • Size limits: Due to aircraft weight and balance requirements, Instructor Pilots must maintain a weight not to exceed 200lbs. Max Height of 6’4”
  • Instructor pilot holding FAA CFI
  • Minimum 500 hours total flight time
  • Minimum 100 hours dual instruction given
  • Seaplane Rating (may get this after job offer and before arrival at ICON)
Click to expand...
https://iconaircraft.com/about/careers/?p=job/o6KM3fwp



You want to become a good low level pilot?

Start with this

https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Flying-Jim-Dulin/dp/0615209831

Then

https://www.amazon.com/Notes-Seaplane-Instructor-Instructional-Training/dp/1560275588

And go over/reference this

http://www.lakeandair.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=4023



Then sign up for this

http://www.bushair.co.za/home.html (US based now)

Then get your float here

https://www.alaskafloatratings.com/rates


You'll be, I'd wager, a FAAAR better seaplane pilot than taking the icon course, heck based on the job listings, probably be better than many of the icon CFIs.
 
Tantalum said:
Yikes... so there were two different jammed controls?! :eek:

Although, I can't recall ever need more than maybe 25% deflection of ailerons while flying (slips excluding)... elevators, yes those routinely go full aft, but ailerons I've never really had to be that aggressive on them...
Click to expand...

The one found on the ground occurred during a "boxing" of the controls - something like full rudder in one direction with full opposite aileron. Something in the bungee interconnect, which is, frankly, rather Rube Goldberg-ish. Not likely to occur in flight, but you know how Murphy works.

Completely different from the aileron jamming early on.
 
The pictures don't do the terrain in the area justice. I can't imagine low level maneuvering in that location, if they were in fact doing that.
 
James331 said:
Do you do low level contact flying through narrow passages with power lines, trees, etc around? The type of flying most GA pilots in land planes do is quite a bit different than the flying that was likely going on in the lake.



I wouldn't bother with their training program, their ads for CFIs have some pretty low mins.


https://iconaircraft.com/about/careers/?p=job/o6KM3fwp



You want to become a good low level pilot?

Start with this

https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Flying-Jim-Dulin/dp/0615209831

Then

https://www.amazon.com/Notes-Seaplane-Instructor-Instructional-Training/dp/1560275588

And go over/reference this

http://www.lakeandair.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=4023



Then sign up for this

http://www.bushair.co.za/home.html (US based now)

Then get your float here

https://www.alaskafloatratings.com/rates


You'll be, I'd wager, a FAAAR better seaplane pilot than taking the icon course, heck based on the job listings, probably be better than many of the icon CFIs.
Click to expand...

Now that I am done with the aerobatic course at Chandler I think I am going to go do that back country course above before my instrument rating! Pleasant Valley is 20 minutes from me. Wooo hoooo
 
citizen5000 said:
A carbon cub is a completely different product. The CC uses a 180hp Titan engine engine and is built to STOL standards for backcountry flying, price $205k.

The ICONs competition are other seaplane SLSA with equivalent 100hp Rotax engines and instruments (glass). The ICON price around $200k. The Searey sport is around $120k. The Vickers Wave is $150k.
Click to expand...


The vickers is computer drawings right now, and is a A5 knock off
A searay isn't the same demographics, the people who want a A5 ain't going to strap into what looks like a garage built amphib

And float flying is backcountry by its very nature.

The same types who own the always clean carbon cubs that you see kept at controlled airports or perfectly near scissor cut looking grass strips, those are very much the same crowd who'd debate buying a A5 IMO
 
CC268 said:
Now that I am done with the aerobatic course at Chandler I think I am going to go do that back country course above before my instrument rating! Pleasant Valley is 20 minutes from me. Wooo hoooo
Click to expand...

From what I've heard, I'd also take CC up on any offers for a braai or drinks.

I'm trying to get over there this year
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top