Fatal ICON A5 crash

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by alanbreck, May 8, 2017.

  1. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I've flown a Cherokee 6 that used to be in floats!
     
  2. mondtster

    mondtster Cleared for Takeoff

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    As far as I know, there were factory 172 float planes too. There are also 150s on floats.

    So back to my previous statement, compare apples to apples. The 172 needs to be on floats to have a more accurate comparison.
     
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  3. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Insurance data does not support the concept that amphibs are 'safer' than land-planes.
     
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  4. TexDeuce

    TexDeuce Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ^^^^^^ I couldn't have said it better myself. You get it. Good post.

    James - I really don't need to respond as you are arguing against points I am not making so there is not much to be said on that. I don't disagree with what you are saying but it is a tangent not relevant to the point I am making. The seperate point being "intended use" and the "marketing". In which I agree with the points you are making. Nothing you said has been off base other than it not addressing the point I am making.

    However, you are assuming everyone that owns one will use it as a jet ski (they might). But probably not all. This entire premise I am arguing assumes the plane is flown in the same way. So compared to a Cessna we would compare it to flying an A5 like you would the Cessna. No rule says you have to do water landings in it.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  5. Rotero

    Rotero Filing Flight Plan

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    Remember what was the exact question that TexDeuce answered to him self wih A5?
    Well, my answer to same question is C172 or PA28. Nothing to do with amphibian mission.


    (For god's sake, yes, both have 4 seats. Please: A. Remove the back seats. B. Label them "INOP" or C. Dont use them if you dont want or need it. )
     
  6. mondtster

    mondtster Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't think anyone with a little seaplane time would argue that point! :)

    In just the time that this thread has been running its course I can think of one amphibian incident where the plane got flipped due to forgetting to put the wheels up. That's probably a good part of the reason why amphibious airplanes are hard to insure, as James already alluded to.
     
  7. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Some of the flying boats are tolerant to leaving the gear down. Still, it's a plane, not a boat. Flotsam, logs, boats all this other stuff on the water along with bad weather while tied down on the dock all claim floatplanes. The idea that 'you have all those lakes as emergency landing sites' addresses a very uncommon cause for aircraft accidents.
    History has also shown that for every stall or spin resistant design, there is a pilot capable of finding the niche in the envelope where that is not true.
     
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  8. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Agreed, kinda ;)

    I wish insurance thought like you, even if in promise to never go on water, even if based on the time of year all the water is froze, if my skywagon has its amphibs on my rates are WAAAAAY more, and that ain't some AOPA insurance ether.

    And unlike my skywagon, that A5 is, and always will be, a amphib.

    Most of the places amphibs/float planes get in trouble most of those saftey features don't mean jack.

    But I do get your point, air work wise it's probably quite safe, sadly though most accidents are takeoff and landing, and take off and landing in a amphib is probably the most risky airframe for take offs and landings.
     
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  9. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So with all this doom and gloom, this is a good point to add, amphib flying is BY FAR the most fun you can have in a airplane, like it's not even a debate, amphibs are 1 part freedom and 1 part aviation, if you ever get the chance to fly a amphib, or even straight floats, it will ruin the rest of aviation for you as it blows everything else away!!
     

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  10. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Still can't legally land on public water here on CO because our legislature is made up of morons. Yay. 49 out of 50 States allow it, and we get to continue to look like idiots until the next legislative session where rational people get to try again.
     
  11. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    How the hell do you fly it sitting out there on the float?! ;)
     
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  12. Joshuajayg

    Joshuajayg Line Up and Wait

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    With an AOA.

    Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk
     
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  13. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

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    I thought Colorado has a reservoir where it was legal to land a Seaplane on down by Rocky Ford, east of Pueblo on Lake Meredith. I know they had a fly in there May 20, 2017.

    https://hangar.aopa.org/events/item/50/247
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  14. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Private lake. The organizers are pretty much purposely taunting the stupid State legislature by holding it there. Or more marketing-esque: "Showing [the idiots] it can be done safely."

    They're having to land the aircraft at an airport and have the State invasive species boating inspections done, so it's pretty much an amphibious only event right now. No true float-only aircraft.
     
  15. Tantalum

    Tantalum Cleared for Takeoff

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    Is anyone else unable to get on Icon's website? After some point yesterday afternoon I wasn't able to get on their website anymore... I've been periodically checking to see if they would have any updates or news
     
  16. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Must be user error.

    Works for me.
     
  17. Tantalum

    Tantalum Cleared for Takeoff

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    @ElPaso Pilot must be.. I'll try another computer, maybe it's just my phone
     
  18. Pilotgil

    Pilotgil Filing Flight Plan

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    Many of ICON's promotional videos glorify very low-level flight with steep banked maneuvering over and near trees and rock formations. From a safety cultural perspective, it doesn't seem too far fetched that the this accident may have occurred as a result. Sounds like time for Safety Culture Assessment and a SMS program before starting more deliveries.
     
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  19. N659HB

    N659HB Cleared for Takeoff

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    Do a YouTube search for Searey videos. You'll see more of the same low-level flying. As long as they are no hazard to other, I could care less.
     
  20. Pilotgil

    Pilotgil Filing Flight Plan

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    Having run professional flight departments, I actually care. This was the Chief Test Pilot and the Chief Engineer, not Icon #2756 flown by some yahoo with 200 hours TT and cash to burn. It matters - especially to those left behind like spouses, kids, and the bad PR.
     
  21. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So....if it was a 200hr PPL with money, it would matter less? matter less to said spouse and kids?
     
  22. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, but if these two can't get it right, the carnage among their targeted 200 hour pilots might be considerable.
     
  23. Goofy

    Goofy Line Up and Wait

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    It appears the bottom line is - even experienced Pilots can make stupid mistakes..
     
  24. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Even high time pilots make bad choices from time to time, usually they get away with it, sometimes they dont
     
  25. X3 Skier

    X3 Skier Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.

    Frank Borman

    Cheers
     
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  26. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I did some hiking on a trail starting just on the downside of the dam at Berryessa, one ridgeline away from the accident site last week. I saw an Icon buzzing overhead. High overhead.
     
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  27. N659HB

    N659HB Cleared for Takeoff

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    I didn't mean to come across as being crass about the loss of life. My point is there are a lot of experienced pilots out there doing similar things in similar aircraft. What they do with their aircraft is their business, as long as they are not a hazard to others.
     
  28. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The thing is, activities that are fun are not necessarily safe. Often, as the fun scale goes up, the safe scale goes down. When selling vehicles like the ICON and other fun machines, the marketer treads a fine line between attracting people who want the thrill, vs the safety factor. This extends to marketing for many other adventure activities.
     
  29. mondtster

    mondtster Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not to mention that I believe some of the flying is done the way it is to put perspective in the photos and videos used for marketing. I'd be willing to bet that at least some of the same people complaining about how Icon's photos and videos glorify low level contact flying would whine about the "lame" brochures and videos if they were shot against a big blue sky void of things in the background.

    I quickly perused Cessna's photos on their website and found some similarities. Yet nobody is complaining about how Cessna is marketing the Caravan.
     
  30. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    I always thought this one was more eerie and a better warning, considering... if we are going with astronaut/pilot quotes.

    “Death is the handmaiden of the pilot. Sometimes it comes by accident, sometimes by an act of God.”
    - Albert Scott Crossfield

    Or more interestingly, in an interview a day before the flight...

    "I want to go in the air, not a bathtub."

    But his real last words on the planet were...

    "Atlanta, this is Seven Nine X-ray. I'd like to deviate south, weather."
     
  31. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    Fate is the hunter...
     
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  32. Shepherd

    Shepherd Pattern Altitude

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    I see what you did there.
    But you need the sound track
     
  33. nauga

    nauga Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Final report was released yesterday.

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    reading and heeding
     
  34. N659HB

    N659HB Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wrong turn with no way out.
     
  35. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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  36. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    I wonder that once the pilot realized he flew into that canyon how much water he had left in front of him to sit it down rather than attempting the turn or if he was too far in when he realized it.
     
  37. N659HB

    N659HB Cleared for Takeoff

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    He had a 'chute as well.
     
  38. GRG55

    GRG55 En-Route

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    One of my prize Oshkosh acquisitions is a mint condition first edition hardcover of that book I found in the Flymarket about a quarter century ago.
     
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