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Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by alanbreck, May 8, 2017.
I've flown a Cherokee 6 that used to be in floats!
As far as I know, there were factory 172 float planes too. There are also 150s on floats.
So back to my previous statement, compare apples to apples. The 172 needs to be on floats to have a more accurate comparison.
Insurance data does not support the concept that amphibs are 'safer' than land-planes.
^^^^^^ I couldn't have said it better myself. You get it. Good post.
James - I really don't need to respond as you are arguing against points I am not making so there is not much to be said on that. I don't disagree with what you are saying but it is a tangent not relevant to the point I am making. The seperate point being "intended use" and the "marketing". In which I agree with the points you are making. Nothing you said has been off base other than it not addressing the point I am making.
However, you are assuming everyone that owns one will use it as a jet ski (they might). But probably not all. This entire premise I am arguing assumes the plane is flown in the same way. So compared to a Cessna we would compare it to flying an A5 like you would the Cessna. No rule says you have to do water landings in it.
Remember what was the exact question that TexDeuce answered to him self wih A5?
Well, my answer to same question is C172 or PA28. Nothing to do with amphibian mission.
(For god's sake, yes, both have 4 seats. Please: A. Remove the back seats. B. Label them "INOP" or C. Dont use them if you dont want or need it. )
I don't think anyone with a little seaplane time would argue that point!
In just the time that this thread has been running its course I can think of one amphibian incident where the plane got flipped due to forgetting to put the wheels up. That's probably a good part of the reason why amphibious airplanes are hard to insure, as James already alluded to.
Some of the flying boats are tolerant to leaving the gear down. Still, it's a plane, not a boat. Flotsam, logs, boats all this other stuff on the water along with bad weather while tied down on the dock all claim floatplanes. The idea that 'you have all those lakes as emergency landing sites' addresses a very uncommon cause for aircraft accidents.
History has also shown that for every stall or spin resistant design, there is a pilot capable of finding the niche in the envelope where that is not true.
I wish insurance thought like you, even if in promise to never go on water, even if based on the time of year all the water is froze, if my skywagon has its amphibs on my rates are WAAAAAY more, and that ain't some AOPA insurance ether.
And unlike my skywagon, that A5 is, and always will be, a amphib.
Most of the places amphibs/float planes get in trouble most of those saftey features don't mean jack.
But I do get your point, air work wise it's probably quite safe, sadly though most accidents are takeoff and landing, and take off and landing in a amphib is probably the most risky airframe for take offs and landings.
So with all this doom and gloom, this is a good point to add, amphib flying is BY FAR the most fun you can have in a airplane, like it's not even a debate, amphibs are 1 part freedom and 1 part aviation, if you ever get the chance to fly a amphib, or even straight floats, it will ruin the rest of aviation for you as it blows everything else away!!
Still can't legally land on public water here on CO because our legislature is made up of morons. Yay. 49 out of 50 States allow it, and we get to continue to look like idiots until the next legislative session where rational people get to try again.
How the hell do you fly it sitting out there on the float?!
With an AOA.
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I thought Colorado has a reservoir where it was legal to land a Seaplane on down by Rocky Ford, east of Pueblo on Lake Meredith. I know they had a fly in there May 20, 2017.
Private lake. The organizers are pretty much purposely taunting the stupid State legislature by holding it there. Or more marketing-esque: "Showing [the idiots] it can be done safely."
They're having to land the aircraft at an airport and have the State invasive species boating inspections done, so it's pretty much an amphibious only event right now. No true float-only aircraft.
Is anyone else unable to get on Icon's website? After some point yesterday afternoon I wasn't able to get on their website anymore... I've been periodically checking to see if they would have any updates or news
Must be user error.
Works for me.
@ElPaso Pilot must be.. I'll try another computer, maybe it's just my phone
Many of ICON's promotional videos glorify very low-level flight with steep banked maneuvering over and near trees and rock formations. From a safety cultural perspective, it doesn't seem too far fetched that the this accident may have occurred as a result. Sounds like time for Safety Culture Assessment and a SMS program before starting more deliveries.
Do a YouTube search for Searey videos. You'll see more of the same low-level flying. As long as they are no hazard to other, I could care less.
Having run professional flight departments, I actually care. This was the Chief Test Pilot and the Chief Engineer, not Icon #2756 flown by some yahoo with 200 hours TT and cash to burn. It matters - especially to those left behind like spouses, kids, and the bad PR.
So....if it was a 200hr PPL with money, it would matter less? matter less to said spouse and kids?
No, but if these two can't get it right, the carnage among their targeted 200 hour pilots might be considerable.
It appears the bottom line is - even experienced Pilots can make stupid mistakes..
Even high time pilots make bad choices from time to time, usually they get away with it, sometimes they dont
A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.
I did some hiking on a trail starting just on the downside of the dam at Berryessa, one ridgeline away from the accident site last week. I saw an Icon buzzing overhead. High overhead.
I didn't mean to come across as being crass about the loss of life. My point is there are a lot of experienced pilots out there doing similar things in similar aircraft. What they do with their aircraft is their business, as long as they are not a hazard to others.
The thing is, activities that are fun are not necessarily safe. Often, as the fun scale goes up, the safe scale goes down. When selling vehicles like the ICON and other fun machines, the marketer treads a fine line between attracting people who want the thrill, vs the safety factor. This extends to marketing for many other adventure activities.
Not to mention that I believe some of the flying is done the way it is to put perspective in the photos and videos used for marketing. I'd be willing to bet that at least some of the same people complaining about how Icon's photos and videos glorify low level contact flying would whine about the "lame" brochures and videos if they were shot against a big blue sky void of things in the background.
I quickly perused Cessna's photos on their website and found some similarities. Yet nobody is complaining about how Cessna is marketing the Caravan.
I always thought this one was more eerie and a better warning, considering... if we are going with astronaut/pilot quotes.
“Death is the handmaiden of the pilot. Sometimes it comes by accident, sometimes by an act of God.”
- Albert Scott Crossfield
Or more interestingly, in an interview a day before the flight...
"I want to go in the air, not a bathtub."
But his real last words on the planet were...
"Atlanta, this is Seven Nine X-ray. I'd like to deviate south, weather."
Fate is the hunter...
I see what you did there.
But you need the sound track
Final report was released yesterday.
reading and heeding
Wrong turn with no way out.
Thanks for the heads up.
I wonder that once the pilot realized he flew into that canyon how much water he had left in front of him to sit it down rather than attempting the turn or if he was too far in when he realized it.
He had a 'chute as well.
One of my prize Oshkosh acquisitions is a mint condition first edition hardcover of that book I found in the Flymarket about a quarter century ago.