Fatal Crash at First Flight, 9/28

[AV8R_87]

Thank you for the update.

 

[3393RP]

The Cirrus SR has mild stall characteristics, but I would say if you get slow on it and drop a wing, many have said it spins violently, which is why the only spin recovery option per the POH is to pull CAPS.

I have about 500 hours in Cirrus, most in the 22. They fly like any other airplane I’ve flown.

Like any aircraft, speed control in the pattern is important. You can definitely feel decaying airspeed in the plane, the controls start to feel mushy, the plane gets quiet, and most importantly, in the newer planes, bitching Betty makes a racket. You can’t miss it, even before Betty starts talking if you pay attention.

The stall is very docile and predictable. If a wing does drop, there is ample rudder to bring it back into line.

I honestly think some pilots get into trouble trying to fly a cub pattern in a plane that enters the pattern at a speed greater than a cub’s cruise speed.

There have been multiple threads over the years about SR2X stall characteristics, and many assert that once a stall occers, the only remedy is to fire the rocket and pray. These are often accompanied by claims that the manufacturer's refusal to perform spin recovery testing is an admission the planes cannot recover from a stall. This misstates the historical facts of their certification.

The comments above by Paul S echo those of other experienced Cirrus pilots. Pay attention to proper speeds in slower flight regimes, and the plane is predictable. Stall characteristics are similar to other high performance aircraft, and recovery can be effected by normal techniques.

 

[Albany Tom]

I didn't know that there were any straight wing civilian aircraft that were dangerous to stall if you're coordinated. I guess maybe the caveat to that is, if you don't fly coordinated, don't stall. That's not meant to be mean, just kind of a thing that two things have to go wrong to spin without wanting to.

And I made that carve out because my understanding is that some military aircraft, like the F-100 and F-104 were dangerous to stall because of the wing sweep or shape/size.

 

[bonefishpete]

I didn't know that there were any straight wing civilian aircraft that were dangerous to stall if you're coordinated. I guess maybe the caveat to that is, if you don't fly coordinated, don't stall. That's not meant to be mean, just kind of a thing that two things have to go wrong to spin without wanting to.

And I made that carve out because my understanding is that some military aircraft, like the F-100 and F-104 were dangerous to stall because of the wing sweep or shape/size.

I would say any aircraft you stall at say 150' is dangerous. Is a aircraft that enters a spin still stalled or is is just spinning? Can you stall and spin simultaneously?

 

[steingar]

That pilot must have been a much better pilot than me, since he was able to dive a slick airplane at 1000 feet/minute without picking up a whole lot of airspeed. Either that or he really sucked, and the plane was just falling out of the sky due to a lack of inertia. Botch a go-around while the airplane is that low on power and down she comes.

And overloaded. Dunno if it was within recommended W&B, I'll bet the pilot didn't know either. Gotta feel for the passengers, there was no way they could have known how dodgy this whole thing was. Something we always have to keep in mind, they don't know.

I flew low over Lake Michigan with a pilot-rated passenger once. I knew it was risky, and I figured he knew as well. Once we made landfall he made light of the situation, I asked what he'd have done if the mill quit. He nonchalantly said he'd swim to shore, which I'd like to see in 50° water, which is the water temp in the Northern Reaches of Lake Michigan. I felt horrid, even though he was a rated pilot I'd put him in dutch unknowingly.

They didn't know. RIP. I hope we all can do better.

 

[Tools]

I would say any aircraft you stall at say 150' is dangerous. Is a aircraft that enters a spin still stalled or is is just spinning? Can you stall and spin simultaneously?

I think a spin is defined as a stalled AOA and an autorotative moment, so yes. If you don’t have a stalled AOA, pretty much guaranteed your airspeed is increasing and you are in a high speed spiral instead.

Only know this stuff since I flew a jet in the navy that COULDNT SPIN. Simply aerodynamically unable, vert stab and rudder too big. So what looked like a spin was actually the spiral, you just fly out of a spiral. You can, you’re not stalled. A spin requires regaining a not stalled aoa so you can then fly to a recovery.

I understand the cirrus to not be able to recover from a spin in a manner the faa considers reasonable for that class of airplane. Not that it can’t recover, just not easy enough, so a parachute relieves the burden of changing the flight characteristics which are detrimental to its performance.

The fact it is so successful in engine out situations is merely an added bonus, and really, a game changer.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Is a aircraft that enters a spin still stalled or is is just spinning? Can you stall and spin simultaneously?

Yes, yes, and yes.

A spin is when one wing is stalled and the other is still flying. The stalled wing produces much higher drag on that side, causing autorotation.

If both wings are flying, it is a spiral dive, not a spin.

If both wings are stalled, there will be no autorotation, just a straight ahead stall.

 

[4RNB]

Thanks for the final report post.

I'm flying there in the morning, good to have right pattern reminders.

 

[Albany Tom]

I would say any aircraft you stall at say 150' is dangerous.

Having stalled an aircraft unintentionally at about 150', I concur. Ended up fine, no harm no foul, but would not recommend it. Ed and others summed up the rest better than I could, and I can pretty confidently state that if only one wing stalled I wouldn't be typing this now.

 

[21541803]

Yes, yes, and yes.

A spin is when one wing is stalled and the other is still flying. The stalled wing produces much higher drag on that side, causing autorotation.

If both wings are flying, it is a spiral dive, not a spin.

If both wings are stalled, there will be no autorotation, just a straight ahead stall.

or both stalled, one more than the other?

 

[dmspilot]

Yes, yes, and yes.

A spin is when one wing is stalled and the other is still flying. The stalled wing produces much higher drag on that side, causing autorotation.

If both wings are flying, it is a spiral dive, not a spin.

If both wings are stalled, there will be no autorotation, just a straight ahead stall.

Not really accurate. It's pretty clear both wings are stalled in a flat spin, for example. And the difference between and flat spin and a nose-low spin is not how many wings are stalled.

 

[donjohnston]

There have been multiple threads over the years about SR2X stall characteristics, and many assert that once a stall occers, the only remedy is to fire the rocket and pray. These are often accompanied by claims that the manufacturer's refusal to perform spin recovery testing is an admission the planes cannot recover from a stall. This misstates the historical facts of their certification.

I have never heard or read that about the Cirrus (which does not mean it's never been said).

I have heard that about a spin though. Which as you state is not correct.

 

[3393RP]

I have never heard or read that about the Cirrus (which does not mean it's never been said).

I have heard that about a spin though. Which as you state is not correct.

To be clear, I'm referring to posts on other sites as well, and most made in the not so recent past. The number of stall related incidents seem to have become less frequent over the last ten or fifteen years, likely because of efforts by Cirrus. Their training centers and the CSIP, or Cirrus Standardized Instructor Pilot program, have produced favorable results. I also think the novelty of an airframe parachute once made pulls newsworthy, and that produced comments in aircraft forums by the great unwashed (attempt at humor). So, in my most unscientific opinion, there is now less frequent discussion about the stall characteristics of Cirri.

As an aside, I live several miles east of McKinney, and my usual route into the Big City involves driving past the west side of KTKI. I'm always impressed by the number of SR-2X and SF-50s on the ramp at the Cirrus sales and training facility. There's a decent turnover in those figures, based on the changing colors of the planes. It's a nice success story, of which there are far too few in the general aviation world.

 

[AV8R_87]

The number of stall related incidents seem to have become less frequent over the last ten or fifteen years

The Cirrus wing is a laminar flow wing without washout. You can see stall strips (the small triangular strips) on the inboard leading edges, to get them to stall first for a bit of extra warning. A laminar flow wing will stall in a more sudden manner, compared to the predictable mush stall of a trainer's non-laminar wings. A moment of distraction or not watching the speed carefully and the bottom falls off. Experienced the onset of that when I let the airspeed drop too much during the flare, caught it with power before it became a rough landing.

Why things have improved, with regard to Cirrus stall/spin accidents?
Cirrus' training program definitely helped, but nowdays a lot of Cirrus owners do all their pilot training in a Cirrus, instead of learning bad airspeed habits on a 172 first.