FAR 91.213 particulars

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Daniel L, May 17, 2018.

  1. Daniel L

    Daniel L Pre-Flight

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    Hey guys. Looking for clarification and/or validation in reading of §91.213.

    An MEL is required for missing equipment. The MEL can't list equipment covered in §91.205 or an AD and still be considered airworthy.

    For vfr-day use, to be airworthy the aircraft must fulfill §91.205. If the inoperative equipment is listed in §91.205, a permit is required to fly the plane to a repair facility to restore operation. otherwise, missing equipment not covered in 91.205 must be placarded.

    Is this more or less accurate?

    Sent from my BBB100-3 using Tapatalk
     
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I can't tell.

    Are you starting from the baseline that:
    • 91.205(a),(b), and (c) are talking about an aircraft with a MEL
    • A MEL is a list of equipment which may be inoperative without making the airplane unairworthy, which is approved by the FAA for a specific N-numbered airplane; and
    • 91.205(d) is talking about an airplane which does not have a MEL; and
    • The equipment list in your Cessna 172 (or whatever), which is found in the Weight & Balance section of the modern POH, is not a MEL?
     
  3. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Note that there are a lot of things NOT listed in 91.205 that can't be deferred under 91.213.
     
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  4. Clip4

    Clip4 Pattern Altitude

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    Re-read the entire section. Start with (d).

    (d) Equipment that is inoperative must be removed or deactivated, with the proper record in the aircraft log book, and the cockpit placarded. (Most GA aircraft)

    (a) An aircraft with an MEL may be operated with the inoperative equipment in the aircraft in accordance with limitations in the MEL. If an aircraft does not have an MEL, (d) applies.

    In both situations, equipment required by regulation or the manufacturer must be operative.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  5. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    One of the local DPEs gets into this one. Technically the AFM list is NOT an MEL. MELs are usually only seen issued by a FSDO to override those for commercial operators or make them more restrictive.

    For all intents and purposes to the typical Part 91 pilot you treat it as one, but it’s not an MEL.

    There was a nice Advisory Circular for this that had flowcharts done in the late 80s. He liked to point that one out, too.

    It’s been rescinded pending updates for ICAO with no estimated date for replacement.
     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Not even "technically." The equipment list is a completely different animal than a MEL. Their sources are different. Their format is different. Their content is different. The rules of what you do when you come across an inoperative piece of equipment are different. They are exclusive of each other. If you have a MEL, you don't have to do, and can't do, a 91.213(d) analysis.

    That's why some DPEs delve into it.

    Soapbox: Lack of understanding the inop equipment rules is the reason I dislike the burning red fruit mnemonic above all others.
     
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  7. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    And it’s not a bad thing to dislike. I never liked it but couldn’t put my finger on why until I was studying for the Commercial and CFI rides. The first CFI ride the examiner showed me that AC which was nice, after I listed off a million things to check to meet the regs. I had the list right, it was just a courtesy to point out the AC made life a little easier.

    Be nice if they’d get around to updating it since they technically pulled it. It would still work for most stuff, it apparently just didn’t meet the ICAO wording of things these days, considering it was written a couple decades ago.

    But yeah, that nasty red fruit on fire thing is no bueno for a lot of aircraft. I was just pointing out for those reading along that many people tend to call the list in the AFM an “MEL” but it’s not. Many people haven’t seen a real MEL since they’re not all that commonly applied to any aircraft used in the light aircraft training environment.
     
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  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Here's the MMEL (master MEL, a template) for a Cessna Caravan. I've heard there are some flight schools which have gone the MEL route, but I've not seen one in a long time. I recall seeing one for a Bonanza. The European civilian aviation agency, EASA, has them for some. This is their MMEL for a Cessna 172.

    The most interesting thing about a MEL is perhaps that it is not a list of required equipment. Just the opposite. It's a list of equipment that can be inoperative without affecting airworthiness.
     
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  9. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    I think MELs are typically found on larger planes. A 172 has a "Types and Kinds of Equipment" list in the POH which states what must be working for different kinds of flight as well as alternatives - for example, in the 172s I fly, if the beacon is ooc, you can fly VFR using the strobes. The Warriors don't have anything like this, so there's no guidance to the pilot from Piper, it's the PIC's decision. The TKE is Cessna's name for their list, other manufacturers may have a different name or may not have a list at all, like Piper.

    The MEL or manufacturer list + 91.205 are the legal requirements that shape the PIC's judgement of airworthy. Additionally, 91.213 sticks it's nose in for equipment which is not working.
     
  10. Clip4

    Clip4 Pattern Altitude

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    I do not have any students waste their time on that mnemonic. Ear mark your FAR and tell the examiner this is where you can find the information should they need it in the future.
     
  11. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    [
    ...also known as a "Kinds of Operations Equipment List"...from 91.213(d):
    It's a part of the deferral process, not a stand-alone document.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  12. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Yeah, I shouldn't quote things from memory...look them up...thank you.
     
  13. Daniel L

    Daniel L Pre-Flight

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    Well, my CFI brought this up because he's had students screw up in describing it during their verbal exams. Patrick stated that the plane we fly has no MEL. He also stated the equipment list in the POH isn't a MEL. This answers your last bullet.
    Yeah I had a few flights where the garmin 430 was pulled out and sent to maintenance due to a battery issue. He placarded it.
     
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  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    The big problem I found with this mnemonic isn't that it's not necessary to memorize 91.205. It's more that it emphasizes 91.205 to such a degree that many pilots end up thinking that's all there is.

    I ran a periodic survey for years where I would mention a piece of required equipment not mentioned in 91.205 and ask whether you can legally fly with it inoperative. Pilots who learned the mnemonic were likely to say "yes." Even CFIs who taught it would say, "It's not in TOM%$^#^*(MES, so we're good to go." Same results when I would ask during flight reviews. Those who never learned the mnemonic would say either "no" or "I'm not sure," a far better answer and a good teaching moment.
     
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  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Sounds like a good instructor.
     
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  16. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    That one also requires a new W&B for the airplane.
     
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    Yup...that's how my mom almost had her Private Pilot written expire...no w&b for the radio removed when she went for her checkride.
     
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  18. Daniel L

    Daniel L Pre-Flight

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    Yeah, check..

    I have a good CFI. We did all that, well I did all that. He watched.
     
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  19. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    Isn't creating a new w&b maintenance, outside of preventative mx items?
     
  20. JAWS

    JAWS Line Up and Wait

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    I recall there is an issue with this for G1000 equipped 172's. The strobes are required items due to an updated certification basis, which is different than older models.

    I have taught MEL use at my work and have used the flow chart the FAA made to illustrate why having an MEL is useful to a pilot.
     
  21. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Yes. I think he’s talking about calculating a W&B. We were talking about the official airplane W&B sheet having to be updated by an A&P when you remove items from the aircraft.