False DUI Arrests and the FAA

Two threads/same subject merged. This thread has a tenuous connection to aviation medicine, if that connection becomes strained the thread will be locked. Again.

Nauga,
who almost said, "Govern yourselves accordingly" ;)
 
Two threads/same subject merged. This thread has a tenuous connection to aviation medicine, if that connection becomes strained the thread will be locked. Again.

Nauga,
who almost said, "Govern yourselves accordingly" ;)
really? if we get a dui, even if are labs come back 100 pct clean our certificate is at risk. seems pretty vital discussion as concerns aviation.
 
really? if we get a dui, even if are labs come back 100 pct clean our certificate is at risk. seems pretty vital discussion as concerns aviation.
Absolutely. Because the FAA looks at motor vehicle actions. 14 CFR 61.15 defines a motor vehicle action by either a conviction for the operating of a motor vehicle while impaired/intoxicated/under the influence of alcohol or a drug, or the cancellation, suspension, or revocation of a motor vehicle license to operate a motor vehicle for a cause related to the same. These MVA's get reported to the National Driver Register by state driving authorities. State driving authorities report serious offenses upon the arrest itself, and care not what happens to the case on the criminal side. So even though the criminal conviction was tossed, the administrative side of the case is a whole other matter.
 
PBOR and the 5th A. I think there is some gray area in the understanding and/or the application of the PBOR, and enforcement based on notification. The wording requirement says; 'shall provide timely, written notification to an individual...'. The individual needs to have written notification of an investigation. However, if the FAA simply calls you up and starts asking questions - has an investigation begun, and if yes, anything said during this non-custodial verbal exchange qualify for evidence? The exception for the individual in section B says that '
an oral or written response to a Letter of Investigation from the Administrator is not required;'

Well, I see some gray area there. On the good news front, a recent case seems to be on the side of the pilot and restricted the powers of the FAA during an investigation:


In this case, the court seems to have extended the wording of the PBOR from 'written' report of investigation to 'verbal'. The pilot was not notified by writing of the investigation, and when called he apparently offered up evidence of wrong doing. But - it was found to be unusable at court.

Next up is remaining silent. Even though section B says that an oral response is not required, well - that seems to fly in the face of Salinas v Texas, where a defendant did not specifically verbally invoke his right to silence, and because it was non-custodial(as is the FAA investigation), he was not afforded the Miranda exception to simply remaining silent. One must verbally or written invoke such right, or risk your failure to state your 5th A right that anything said or written is now 'fair game' for prosecution.

To extend this even further, there's also the issue of lying during questioning. So, the 'non-denial, denial' comes into play. I'm sure most know that it's an offense(of its own) to lie to LEO. However, that same law does not apply to administrative cases such as with the FAA. Without going all down that rat hole, I would say to stick with the non-denial, denial method.

In conclusion, I guess here's the non-legal advice I'm going to employ; The FAA is on the phone with me and they say; 'Hey Barrett, was that you flying N12345 over the Brimstone Baptist church on Sunday at 50' AGL?'. ME; 'If you are from the FAA, I do my best to operate legally at all times, and will not answer any questions until represented. Have a nice day.' YMMV
 
For those who are late to the party here, the reason for the traffic stop has nothing to do with DUI. I’d bet 99% of the stops are for things like having a light out, driving with high beams on, following too close, even minor infractions like license plate lights being out. But if the cop is looking to turn a stop into a DUI stop, they pull the “I smell alcohol”, which gives them reasonable articulable suspicion of DUI (prove that he didn’t), and it snowballs from there.

There’s one stop where they stopped the guy for driving with high beams on, “I smell alcohol” FSTs and a PBT were conducted, the guy blew all zeroes, and the cop says “Well I smell marijuana”. Like wait what!?!?

I think any of these cases where the cop “smelled alcohol/marijuana/etc”, and the test results came back negative for drugs and alcohol, that the cop needs to be reprimanded, sentenced to remedial training, or let go.
 
Given how these things develop, I’m more in favor of TRANSPARENT statistics. Let THOSE decide the fix, it’ll be different in different venues.

Honestly, transparency fixes LOTS of things. Most shady actors are too weak to operate out in the open…

Really getting academic, I think this was the intent of FOIA, which has bastardized into quite unuseful. Given tech, and that EVERYTHING is digitized, just make it all read only open to the public. It leans that direction for a lot, but not for many venues, like the faa…

If you are in hims, your medical file is held by an England based research company, Huddle… WHA???? Why is that not just open to me?
 
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There is a special place in h_ll for LEOs who do that......

And FAA uses Huddle because no American firm could offer the level of security (at the price, of course) of the agency. Files are regulary deleted after FAA uploads....and they are exempted from FOIA due to the "safety" exemption. No way to change that unless the law is changed. FAT CHANCE.

We are becoming third world, rapidly.

B
 
There is a special place in h_ll for LEOs who do that......

And FAA uses Huddle because no American firm could offer the level of security (at the price, of course) of the agency. Files are regulary deleted after FAA uploads....and they are exempted from FOIA due to the "safety" exemption. No way to change that unless the law is changed. FAT CHANCE.

We are becoming third world, rapidly.

B
Have you seen the bit about the Tennessee Highway Patrol having the greatest number of sober DUI arrests and the THP colonel defending the practice?
 
Have you seen the bit about the Tennessee Highway Patrol having the greatest number of sober DUI arrests and the THP colonel defending the practice?
"We did it, therefore it is by definition correct no matter what the courts say."

What could go wrong there?
 
Yeah, the normal way to defend the action would be to stand up and promise that the actions of the officers in question, or the program itself will be thoroughly investigated, but then not actually do anything about it. That's at least pretending to care, and playing it safe in case there's video evidence of the guys bragging about what they get away with.

In this case, the video pretty much tells me that not only is the command structure the cause of the problem, but that the spokes guy has absolutely no fear of losing his job over what he said. Which to me indicates that the executive branch there doesn't have any authority. He didn't actually raise his middle finger to the entire state, but pretty much that's the effect. It's unfortunate, because TN was on my short list of places to retire to.

Oh, and not kidding about the job thing. Things are pretty liberal up here, but if someone made a statement like that here, they'd be out of work in about an hour....or at least, they'd find that they had a very different job coming up. This is a failure of leadership.
 
a lot of leaders would do more than pay lip service to really investigating. tn needs some big judgements from lawsuits to motivate change. outrageous position
 
Seems extremely relevant if a corrupt or unprofessional state police department could cost you your ability to fly because of their misconduct
 
Not exactly on point… but…


Also know a guy in hims who bled a 0.0, was the duty driver. He refused preliminary tests because he KNEW he wasn’t drinking and wanted a calibrated machine doing the determination. So they arrested to get that… and it was zero… yet he was out of work for a year getting his medical back.

And on, and on, and on. This sort of thing is FAR from rare.

By the way this is a heralded AME who brags about being the guy responsible for training all new hims Ames. How do I know that? He told me so…

More alarming, the faa took his word, without even seeing the test and pulling the guys medical. How do I know that? Read the court documents. Now, don’t exactly have to be a biomarker expert to READ THE NAME on the test. Not sure all the blame was on this guy….

It’s like a mishap, EVERYTHING went wrong. Unfortunately, we’re crashing careers and lives like we crashed jets in the 50s and 60s.
 
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I think any of these cases where the cop “smelled alcohol/marijuana/etc”, and the test results came back negative for drugs and alcohol, that the cop needs to be reprimanded, sentenced to remedial training, or let go.

Nope. We as a society decided too many innocent people were getting killed by intoxicated drivers. The only way to reduce that is to empower cops in the field to make judgement calls on who should be tested. That is a subjective action and will never be 100% accurate.

Your rights are protected by the legal system. An arrest is not a conviction. Stop whining about it.
 
Nope. We as a society decided too many innocent people were getting killed by intoxicated drivers. The only way to reduce that is to empower cops in the field to make judgement calls on who should be tested. That is a subjective action and will never be 100% accurate.

Your rights are protected by the legal system. An arrest is not a conviction. Stop whining about it.

wow.
 
…Apparently being arrested and bleeding a 0 can still get your medical denied.

While I don’t doubt it, I have yet to hear of an applicant that
1) has been arrested but not convicted; and
2) has been denied

who’s also been willing to share their entire blue ribbon copy (minus PII) of the record that backs it up.
 
I have, quite a few. Ya, there’s “more to the story”, more than rarely, but far less than most, of the time. Ironically, that’s NOT what the faa usually hangs their hat on.

It’s this non transparency that creates most of the friction.

Although in this one case, there wasn’t. Purely contrived by a corrupt system.
 
The point of the original post was that the Tn Highway Patrol had set quotas for drunk driving arrests and had arrested 17 people for dwi who’s blood showed no alcohol or low bac. when called on it the head of the highway patrol was very defensive and claimed all 17 were intoxicated. So a system and illegal abuse of power and malfeasance in office. anyone arrested is facing thousands sometimes tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. pilots face certification action. seems to me outrageous to say “sorry catching a drunk driver excuses any misconduct”. that giy should be fired. most police chiefs im sure would be appalled.
 
I have, quite a few. Ya, there’s “more to the story”, more than rarely, but far less than most, of the time. Ironically, that’s NOT what the faa usually hangs their hat on.

It’s this non transparency that creates most of the friction.

Although in this one case, there wasn’t. Purely contrived by a corrupt system.

So, 1 in however many applicants reported an arrest, there was no conviction, there were no other disqualifying conditions, the applicant respond to all the demand letters with what the FAA wanted, and was denied?

My anecdotal experience is usually the applicant can’t or won’t produce the records and/or won’t respond to the demand letter(s). Categorically, “opting out” doesn’t count.
 
Conscripted… company sent him to an “eval”, with ZERO evidence of anything, no failed FSTs… just a pending blood draw.

It’s a 4 day eval, pack for 40. And was subsequently found to be alcohol dependent based on… maybe how he answered how he drank in college? Don’t know… we should probably assume he was a closet alcoholic in denial…

Results of his blood draw came out during inpatient rehab. He of course didn’t see those results until after they released him.
 
Conscripted… company sent him to an “eval”, with ZERO evidence of anything, no failed FSTs… just a pending blood draw.
Waaaaait...this thread has to now been about losing one's medical after an arrest*, not being mistreated by their employer.
What the the FAA do? Did they pull his medical based on the arrest and clean draw, did they defer to "company" decision, or something else?

*I'm being generous here, it's about abuse of power, which is not a medical issue.

Nauga,
peeling back the layers
 
For certain jobs/duties that require a type of clearance(I can't be more specific, sorry) that requires a polygraph, the question 'have you ever been arrested' is a standard in the question panel. The applicant has two choices, lie and hope, or tell the truth and go down the resulting rat-hole. Passage of the polygraph has gotten far more complicated within the past year, as AI has become a tool in the arsenal of lie detection. I was always proud of my arrests and would gladly answer 'yes!'
 
For certain jobs/duties that require a type of clearance(I can't be more specific, sorry) that requires a polygraph, the question 'have you ever been arrested' is a standard in the question panel. The applicant has two choices, lie and hope, or tell the truth and go down the resulting rat-hole. Passage of the polygraph has gotten far more complicated within the past year, as AI has become a tool in the arsenal of lie detection. I was always proud of my arrests and would gladly answer 'yes!'
DIfferent programs have different requirements, but the basic SF86 is more forgiving than the FAA medical forms. For arrests it's a seven year lookback and for alcohol 'ever in your life' it's charged, not just arrested.

Nauga,
eighty-sixed
 
Waaaaait...this thread has to now been about losing one's medical after an arrest*, not being mistreated by their employer.
What the the FAA do? Did they pull his medical based on the arrest and clean draw, did they defer to "company" decision, or something else?

*I'm being generous here, it's about abuse of power, which is not a medical issue.

Nauga,
peeling back the layers

The thread is about how a bogus arrest can cause you harm. This fits. And yes, definitely because his employer mistreated him, which was overtly condoned by the faa… kinda circuitous don’t cha think?

I said it was tangential.

Tools, being obtuse, and geometrical.
 
Nope. We as a society decided too many innocent people were getting killed by intoxicated drivers. The only way to reduce that is to empower cops in the field to make judgement calls on who should be tested. That is a subjective action and will never be 100% accurate.

Your rights are protected by the legal system. An arrest is not a conviction. Stop whining about it.
How can a cop make a claim to "smell alcohol" when the person clearly had no alcohol in their system? There was no alcohol to smell.

They abuse that power. And in some instances (like with some employers, or the FAA), an arrest may as well be a conviction.

Your state driving authority takes enforcement action on your driver license based on the arrest. Not the conviction.

And before you go "Well what were they doing that got them pulled over in the first place?", most of the time, it's for something unrelated to your driving (license plate light out is a common one).

So don't sit there and act like "an arrest is not a conviction" and think there's no problem because there definitely is. People have gotten their careers ruined over **** like this.
 
Even if you were deferred and everything came back a nothing burger, it's a very long and costly process to have to go through all because law enforcement was about fulfilling a quota.

So this is only an issue if it actually happened? Not if it has a great potential to happen? Or if it only affects one or two people a year?

Are you guys for real? You could be the very next victim of this! Deciding not to drive after drinking is no longer enough to avoid a DUI. THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM!!!

That attitude is why **** like this keeps happening and nothing gets done about it.
 
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I think the elephant in the corner is the nationalized “reporting on arrest” data bases that have zero (to my knowledge) follow up on removal when the arrested party is found innocent.
 
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