Failing the GPS on an Instrument Checkride

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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My checkride is scheduled. I believe I’m ready. I will be doing it with a non WAAS 420 and a NAV with LOC/GS. I fully expect that he will fail the 420, but I am trying to envision how that will be. Will he fail it for a short time and make me ask for vectors to final? Make me track a VOR and then give the 420 back to me?

I have no specific information about him beyond being told that he is straight forward and fair.

What have you guys and gals seen in this regard?
 
Could fail your HSI, and just make u use the gps CDI
 
You need to fly two different types of no precision approaches…he could “fail” the GPS and make you fly a full procedure VOR or LOC approach entirely via ground-based nav.
 
Best advice, be ready for any of those possible scenarios. Going in and anticipating what a DPE will don can backfire, because if he switches it up it can catch you off guard and you fail the test.
 
Mine walked me through each maneuver prior to the flight, including which approach, as we were accounting for weather. Traffic may change it up a little but it gave me time to pre-read the plates. It still happened extremely fast. In my case, he failed my AI, and I flipped by second G5 to AI so a non-event. We shot ILS, same ILS CTL (non-precision) and GPS partial-panel, along with the other required maneuvers
 
Mine failed everything but the gps about halfway between iaf and faf. I had the gps screen, turn and bank, ias, altimeter, and iPad left. It was on the circle to land, so minimums were pretty high.
 
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I suspect he will fail it during one of the approaches.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My checkride is scheduled. I believe I’m ready. I will be doing it with a non WAAS 420 and a NAV with LOC/GS. I fully expect that he will fail the 420, but I am trying to envision how that will be. Will he fail it for a short time and make me ask for vectors to final? Make me track a VOR and then give the 420 back to me?

I have no specific information about him beyond being told that he is straight forward and fair.

What have you guys and gals seen in this regard?
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This is a bit off topic, but the challenge in IFR is not equipment failure as much as the ability to quickly identify when an equipment has failed. It would be nice if there was a way to mimic realistic GPS problems like RAIM annunciation or absence of an LPV annunciation.
 
With that unit, there are two ways he could "fail" it, depending on which failure mode he wants to simulate.

1) Failure of the GPS signal. He can easily simulate this by just turning the page to something unhelpful like the satellite status page.
2) Failure of the whole unit. He could turn it off or just cover it up. This would also take out the associated Comm radios.

If he's going to do it, I would expect him to do it for the duration of that approach procedure - so you have to fly an ILS/LOC/VOR using only the NAV radios. You should be prepared to do this anyway. I'd expect him to give the GPS back at the end of that approach (or make it the last approach).

But I wouldn't necessarily expect him to fail it at all. With your equipment, flying an ILS/LOC/VOR doesn't use the GPS at all, except for positional awareness (fix identification), which if it was an emergency and I had no other way to do it, I'd happily identify fixes using my EFB. So he's able to test those skills (and knowledge and decision-making process) without actually failing the GPS.
 
RussR said:
With that unit, there are two ways he could "fail" it, depending on which failure mode he wants to simulate.

1) Failure of the GPS signal. He can easily simulate this by just turning the page to something unhelpful like the satellite status page.
2) Failure of the whole unit. He could turn it off or just cover it up. This would also take out the associated Comm radios.

If he's going to do it, I would expect him to do it for the duration of that approach procedure - so you have to fly an ILS/LOC/VOR using only the NAV radios. You should be prepared to do this anyway. I'd expect him to give the GPS back at the end of that approach (or make it the last approach).

But I wouldn't necessarily expect him to fail it at all. With your equipment, flying an ILS/LOC/VOR doesn't use the GPS at all, except for positional awareness (fix identification), which if it was an emergency and I had no other way to do it, I'd happily identify fixes using my EFB. So he's able to test those skills (and knowledge and decision-making process) without actually failing the GPS.
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Thank you! This is a helpful comment. I was considering not having my iPad except for making a track log and for C R A F T. My instructor got me away from the iPad because he said every time I look down I got off heading or altitude. He is old school. I now use a clip with plates on the yoke. If the iPad is in my lap with plates available, I could locate fixes on the plate while say flying an ILS. If he were to want to see pad skills I can show him that. I’ve been flying with Foreflight for over ten years.

Thanks!
 
I'm not an instructor, but I'll throw out a question. If the DPE were to fail your GPS, and you had been planning on making a VOR/DME approach, would you use the emergency card to use the tablet to find the fix, or would you change to an alternate that didn't require DME or GPS? Not intended to be a loaded question. On my PP checkride, the DPE didn't fail much, but she did point to just about everything useful, and asked the question "So if that failed, what would it mean and what would you do?"
 
Albany Tom said:
I'm not an instructor, but I'll throw out a question. If the DPE were to fail your GPS, and you had been planning on making a VOR/DME approach, would you use the emergency card to use the tablet to find the fix, or would you change to an alternate that didn't require DME or GPS? Not intended to be a loaded question. On my PP checkride, the DPE didn't fail much, but she did point to just about everything useful, and asked the question "So if that failed, what would it mean and what would you do?"
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Remember it is a practical test, so do or at least explain what you would do if it was a real failure. Legal options 1st are always best, but workable options when that isn’t available are ok to. Will demonstrate you know the rules and you know what information can be used vs what should be used.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
Remember it is a practical test, so do or at least explain what you would do if it was a real failure. Legal options 1st are always best, but workable options when that isn’t available are ok to. Will demonstrate you know the rules and you know what information can be used vs what should be used.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Also remember that since it’s a practical test, the examiner won’t require you to fly an approach that you’re not equipped for, nor will he fail equipment required for an approach that he expects to see.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Also remember that since it’s a practical test, the examiner won’t require you to fly an approach that you’re not equipped for, nor will he fail equipment required for an approach that he expects to see.
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That makes no sense.
 
My DE didn't mess with anything during the flight (other than to cover the gyros). I was hand flying the partial panel GPS approach and he asked if my autopilot would work with an actual vacuum failure and I said it would. He suggested I use it then. So I did for a few minutes but it was gusty and he said I was doing a better job hand flying it so I went back.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It makes no sense that an examiner won’t make you fly an approach illegally?
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1. In an emergency, it's not illegal, and losing instruments during an instrument approach would certainly classify as an emergency
2. I've never heard of anyone passing a check ride by refusing to fly the approach because "it's not legal to fly this approach without an AI" when the examiner fails the AI.

The whole point of the partial panel approach is to demonstrate that you can complete it in an emergency situation without all the required instruments.

JMO.
 
flyingron said:
My DE didn't mess with anything during the flight (other than to cover the gyros). I was hand flying the partial panel GPS approach and he asked if my autopilot would work with an actual vacuum failure and I said it would. He suggested I use it then. So I did for a few minutes but it was gusty and he said I was doing a better job hand flying it so I went back.
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Failing gyro’s is the most common failure DPE’s will do. It is easy for them to do and allows you to demonstrate you know the systems and partial panel flying. But they can fail other things so you need to be ready.
 
Salty said:
1. In an emergency, it's not illegal, and losing instruments during an instrument approach would certainly classify as an emergency
2. I've never heard of anyone passing a check ride by refusing to fly the approach because "it's not legal to fly this approach without an AI" when the examiner fails the AI.

The whole point of the partial panel approach is to demonstrate that you can complete it in an emergency situation without all the required instruments.

JMO.
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I thought the thread was about failing the GPS..
 
MauleSkinner said:
I thought the thread was about failing the GPS..
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How is it any different than failing the AI? It's not "legal" to fly an approach without an AI either. My DPE failed my HSI as well as the AI, the HSI was certainly required for the approach I was flying.
 
Salty said:
How is it any different than failing the AI? It's not "legal" to fly an approach without an AI either. My DPE failed my HSI as well as the AI, the HSI was certainly required for the approach I was flying.
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The ACS requires some form of instrument malfunction, but doesn’t require or allow approaches without required navigation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Show me in the ACS where you are correct.
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Partial panel can't be performed when flying with all the required instruments. You can't have them both. Either you have all the required instruments, or you have a partial panel.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Partial panel can be performed when flying with all required navigation.
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So it's your assertion that failing an AI or HSI like my DPE did, and countless others have done is against the ACS?

I had no AI, no glideslope, no horizontal guidance for my approach.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No.
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But they are all required to fly an instrument approach. If you want to get pedantic (though I disagree with you there too) and stick with requirements for the approach specifically, the HSI was certainly required equipment for the approach.
 
Salty said:
But they are all required to fly an instrument approach. If you want to get pedantic (though I disagree with you there too) and stick with requirements for the approach specifically, the HSI was certainly required equipment for the approach.
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Read the ACS. it becomes clear.
 
Salty said:
1. In an emergency, it's not illegal, and losing instruments during an instrument approach would certainly classify as an emergency
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It certainly would. And then you could deviate from any rule to the extent needed.
14 CFR § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
. . .
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
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But it doesn't say anything about simulated emergencies.
 
Lindberg said:
It certainly would. And then you could deviate from any rule to the extent needed.

But it doesn't say anything about simulated emergencies.
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If you’re VFR, technically you can simulate flying the approach with none of the required instruments.

The dpe is a safety pilot.
 
I think we are nit picking a useless issue.

An engine is required equipment for flight in most aircraft.

My PPL DPE failed my engine on the check ride. I continued the flight all the way to the ground, on a runway.

My COM DPE failed my engine on that check ride. I flew the plane all the way to the ground, on a runway.

My IR DPE failed my engine on the check ride, and once again, I flew on down to the runway. Non precision approach, high decision altitude, took full flaps to get down fast enough to land. I was anticipating a circle to land.

The DPE is not just determining that you can fly in ideal conditions, and fully equipped conditions. He is also determining if you can cope with equipment failures that put you in conditions that tax your skills to the edge of possible.

The FAR's for normal legal flight are not relevant, as long as you are not in actual instrument conditions with other traffic.
 
The solution is simple. When the DPE fails the gyro's or GPS or whatever, key the mike, and announce that you have an emergency. Now you can legally continue, and refuse any deviation from your plan that ATC suggests.

Around here, that would result in a transmission from the tower "All simulated flying activity is terminated due to traffic conditions. N1234, climb straight ahead, contact departure on xxxx". At that point, the check ride is over. And you did not pass.

The regulations are funny things, they are broken by mutual agreement all the time. I was inbound to the outer marker at 90K, approach requested that I make a left 360 to allow an airliner behind me to pass. Jumping ahead of the line landing is not approved, but I answered, OK. Shortly after re aligning with the inbound and crossing the outer marker, I was asked if I could increase my speed to 120K? I asked the DPE if I was going to do the missed? He said yes, and I agreed to maintain 120 for separation, and flew the ILS to the minimum, and went missed. Departure control said thank you.

Again, here, if traffic is heavy, practice and simulated procedures are refused into the big airports. DPE's schedule for the lower density times to avoid that happening.
 
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