FAA's ADS-B Audit Report

Henning said:
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to adopt the equipment required. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the pilot ranks these days.
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Why should I **** away thousands of dollars on a system that has no value to me, ATC (who already gets all the necessary information from my mode C transponder), or anyone else?
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^^^ this.

Henning said:
Welcome to aviation, go beat the **** out of whomever told you it was cheap.
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Nobody said it would cost thousands for something as brain dead simple as a low speed data transmitter and receiver for 900 MHz, either. We seeing the era of pocket sized computers for $600 and even the highest tech radios in the two-way world are $180.

Henning said:
The benefits cannot equate to the costs until everybody decides to play.
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Poppycock. We will never recover the billions spent on the ground network, let alone the airborne devices by anything this system offers.

Henning said:
Traffic, weather, and the full range of GPS approaches.
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Traffic: Already done, and ADS-B will never be allowed as primary because the system never included encryption, authentication, nor any of the well known tools at the time it was being designed for repudiation of the data. Any moron with any RF skill can spoof data and there is absolutely nothing in the network to stop it other than back end data filtering, which hasn't been appropriate for data network security in at least two decades.

Weather: XM already did it better and even that is crap. Oh goody... Compuserve quality weather maps and accuracy. Whheeeee.

GPS approaches: Have absolutely nothing to do with ADS-B. The promised closer quarters of multiple aircraft on approaches can't be accomplished with ADS-B alone due to the above mentioned non-primary nature of the data. The only people even attempting is FedEx and it's just a band-aid for their overloaded hub and spoke system.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Traffic and weather, which the vast majority of GA pilots who can't afford it don't need or want. Therefore it is not a benefit to them.

And GPS approaches have nothing at all to do with ADS-B. If you are thinking about installing a $16,000 IFR GPS system simply to provide a position source to a UAT, you're an idiot.
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That's the only expensive part of a good system though. Otherwise you can be ADS-B compliant for under $4k.

It's not all about you and what you need. Heck, if you want nothing just get an ES compliant transponder and be compliant where others can see you. That's all that is required of you. If you don't want to take advantage of any of the other benefits your tax dollars are being spent on, no worries.
 
Henning said:
That's the only expensive part of a good system though. Otherwise you can be ADS-B compliant for under $4k.

It's not all about you and what you need. Heck, if you want nothing just get an ES compliant transponder and be compliant where others can see you. That's all that is required of you. If you don't want to take advantage of any of the other benefits your tax dollars are being spent on, no worries.
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Maybe you have $4,000 to $5,000 lying around to spend on something pointless you don't need. But the vast majority of GA pilots do not. That 4-5k is what I'm talking about. Too expensive, and of no benefit for most GA pilots.

An ES transponder + GPS position source + install is no more economical. In fact it is even worse. It is replacing my perfectly functional Mode C transponder with nothing wrong with it.
 
The issue with the FAA is that it moves too slowly. By the time the figure out how they are going to do something they are already 10 years behind. It is all well and good for them to do what they do best, ineffectively waste money for marginal results, but when they start telling me I HAVE to install $15,000+ worth of gear to fly VFR under 10,000 feet at 105 knots...I'm not happy. So no, I'm not biting right now.

Given non-FAA controlled technologies ability to get cheaper/faster/lighter in a relatively short period of time, I am hoping that prices will drop to a level where it makes sense to add the capability. It is more likely that I will go experimental and be able to buy the same as certified capabilities for 1/3 the price or less.

$5,000 or less for traffic, IFR certified GPS approaches, and weather? That is a no brainer, if you are flying IFR.

Kind of like how $1,200 or less gets you VFR GPS, ADS-B in, and weather from an iPad, Stratus, and a Foreflight subscription, if you are flying VFR.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
$5,000 or less for traffic, IFR certified GPS approaches, and weather? That is a no brainer, if you are flying IFR.

Kind of like how $1,200 or less gets you VFR GPS, ADS-B in, and weather from an iPad, Stratus, and a Foreflight subscription, if you are flying VFR.
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You're confused.

$5,000 is only a VFR ADS-B setup. Nothing at all to do with GPS IFR navigation. It includes a GPS position source that does nothing but feed position data to the UAT. No display. No navigation. Nothing but location data for the ADS-B system. A few of these systems can provide WiFi or Bluetooth connection to tablets. If you want AHRS, you would still need the Stratus, GDL39, or iLevil on the dash.

If you want IFR approaches, you need an IFR GPS system which is double digit thousands. These have nothing at all to do with ADS-B. The only minor advantage is most can output the GPS location to the ADS-B system. It will make adding ADS-B cost $4000 instead of $5000.
 
$5K might cover the cost of installation for a VFR only ship. The final cost will likely go well north of that. Complex install, and the GPS is going to need an antenna riveted onto the hull of your ship (that will likely cost extra). Cheap this is not going to be.

Odds are I'll sell the aircraft for scrap and hang it up. I'm not blowing that kind of money on something that doesn't help me fly the aircraft.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Maybe you have $4,000 to $5,000 lying around to spend on something pointless you don't need. But the vast majority of GA pilots do not. That 4-5k is what I'm talking about. Too expensive, and of no benefit for most GA pilots.

An ES transponder + GPS position source + install is no more economical. In fact it is even worse. It is replacing my perfectly functional Mode C transponder with nothing wrong with it.
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If $4-5k for a one time purchase is too expensive for you, you need to get out of aviation now, because in aviation $4-5k is chump change. Just because the market price on bottom dollar dog aircraft has dropped 400% since 2008, nothing else has.
 
Henning said:
If $4-5k for a one time purchase is too expensive for you, you need to get out of aviation now, because in aviation $4-5k is chump change. Just because the market price on bottom dollar dog aircraft has dropped 400% since 2008, nothing else has.
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I would blink at $5K, but would still do it. BUt I've yet to see the box that didn't take at least 50% the purchase price to install in the aircraft. From the sounds of it these are going to be on the expensive side. Now, at $7.5-10K I start rethinking things, since my VFR only ship just isn't worth that much to begin with.

And remember, this is for a box that doesn't make the airplane go faster or higher. It doesn't help me take off or land. It doesn't even tell me anything useful. All it does is functions in ATC services that I don't use anyway. But if I don't have it I can't go most of the places I go. Thanks a lot FAA.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Maybe you have $4,000 to $5,000 lying around to spend on something pointless you don't need. But the vast majority of GA pilots do not. That 4-5k is what I'm talking about. Too expensive, and of no benefit for most GA pilots. .
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As a GA pilot, I use it to see traffic around me and modify my course to avoid a potential conflict. I used to think that the see and avoid was sufficient to spot potential conflict aircraft; however, with ADS-B Out I am painting 70 % of targets that I do not see. It was comforting to hear traffic ahead on the intercom permitting me to change course before seeing a king air start across my projected flight path a month ago.
 
I totally agree with Gene about it being worthwhile if you can afford it and/or live in a high traffic area (like here). But for people that not in congested airspace, and/or that struggle just to afford the annuals, that $5000 traffic picture is not going to be what they call a benefit. To pilots with no intention of carrying a tablet and/or without an integrated moving map display, those benefits do not exist.

This is what the FAA has to battle. I'm not saying I personally think it is pointless. But I can totally see the viewpoint of those who do.
 
It isn't about being a benefit for an individual pilot, it's about effectively managing a growingly congested airspace.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
You're confused.

$5,000 is only a VFR ADS-B setup. Nothing at all to do with GPS IFR navigation. It includes a GPS position source that does nothing but feed position data to the UAT. No display. No navigation. Nothing but location data for the ADS-B system. A few of these systems can provide WiFi or Bluetooth connection to tablets. If you want AHRS, you would still need the Stratus, GDL39, or iLevil on the dash.

If you want IFR approaches, you need an IFR GPS system which is double digit thousands. These have nothing at all to do with ADS-B. The only minor advantage is most can output the GPS location to the ADS-B system. It will make adding ADS-B cost $4000 instead of $5000.
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Nope, I'm talking about how non certified versions used in EAB cost 1/3 of he certified stuff.
 
Stewartb said:
It isn't about being a benefit for an individual pilot, it's about effectively managing a growingly congested airspace.
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GA usage of the airspace is DOWN.......

Airline use is UP.......

Who gets hit with the smoke and mirrors , dog and pony show the hardest... GA....:yes:.......:mad2:.....:mad:
 
Stewartb said:
It isn't about being a benefit for an individual pilot, it's about effectively managing a growingly congested airspace.
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They claim that they can squeeze airliners in a little tighter on parallel runways, but what will they get from some guy outside the class B chugging along at 75 knots squawking 1200 that they do not already get from my mode C? Who is "managing" me?

The only "benefit" is for the airliners that might be able to shave a few minutes off a trip to Orlando.
 
You need to take a pill or something. Seriously. Transponders, ELTs, now ADS-B, stuff evolves. We're forced to evolve with it. Resistance is futile.
 
IF ADS-B is so great why are the airlines not rushing in to it? They don't need it and see no benefit for the estimated $10k or so installation cost per plane.
Hopefully, somehow, this disaster in the making will open eyes to see how unnecessarily expensive the FAA is making certification.

If so much money had not already been spent ADS-B would be going the way of the microwave landing system (MLS)
 
Airlines don't run to ADS-B because they have more advanced systems that do it already.

The benefits are really to us little guys.

So what do we do? Complain about it! :rofl:
 
Your fix wasn't quite right.
Pedals2Paddles said:
Originally Posted by Henning View Post
The problem is pilots and aircraft owners refusing to bend over and submit. Personally I hope they stick to the schedule and ground everybody who refuses. It's a ****ing moronathon in the FAA ranks these days.
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Fixed it for you.

Mandating owners purchase equipment they can't afford, that doesn't meet any actual pilot need, and isn't even used by ATC. Ya, the problem is definitely pilots...
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Isn't the compliance cost for large 121 jets higher than $10k?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Airlines don't run to ADS-B because they have more advanced systems that do it already.

The benefits are really to us little guys.

So what do we do? Complain about it! :rofl:
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Actually, if done right, ADS-B could help everyone. btw - ADS-B is going to be used to provide preferential routing for higher altitudes.
 
Henning said:
Traffic, weather, and the full range of GPS approaches.
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Wrong.

  • Traffic - The only benefit of the mandate would be that an ADS-B IN equipped plane would be able to see you when you were outside of radar coverage.
  • Weather - The mandated ADS-B OUT equipment does not provide weather.
  • GPS Approaches - ADS-B has nothing to do with approaches
 
winrose46 said:
As a GA pilot, I use it to see traffic around me and modify my course to avoid a potential conflict. I used to think that the see and avoid was sufficient to spot potential conflict aircraft; however, with ADS-B Out I am painting 70 % of targets that I do not see. It was comforting to hear traffic ahead on the intercom permitting me to change course before seeing a king air start across my projected flight path a month ago.
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You're getting the traffic from ADS-B IN, not ADS-B OUT. The only thing being mandated by 2020 is ADS-B OUT, which basically broadcasts your position.
 
I'll be 70 years old in 2020, and my Sky Arrow will be 13 years old.

I'm very much in a "wait and see" mode.

I would not give up airplane ownership solely due to the added expense and complication of the ADSB mandate, but it may play a role in what I see as a decision point.

With much of the pilot population aging, I have a hunch I'm not alone.
 
steingar said:
I would blink at $5K, but would still do it. BUt I've yet to see the box that didn't take at least 50% the purchase price to install in the aircraft. From the sounds of it these are going to be on the expensive side. Now, at $7.5-10K I start rethinking things, since my VFR only ship just isn't worth that much to begin with.

And remember, this is for a box that doesn't make the airplane go faster or higher. It doesn't help me take off or land. It doesn't even tell me anything useful. All it does is functions in ATC services that I don't use anyway. But if I don't have it I can't go most of the places I go. Thanks a lot FAA.
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How is your airplane not worth 7.5K?
 
steingar said:
I would blink at $5K, but would still do it. BUt I've yet to see the box that didn't take at least 50% the purchase price to install in the aircraft. From the sounds of it these are going to be on the expensive side. Now, at $7.5-10K I start rethinking things, since my VFR only ship just isn't worth that much to begin with.

And remember, this is for a box that doesn't make the airplane go faster or higher. It doesn't help me take off or land. It doesn't even tell me anything useful. All it does is functions in ATC services that I don't use anyway. But if I don't have it I can't go most of the places I go. Thanks a lot FAA.
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There is always negotiating to be done that gets install done reasonably, especially if you don't mind doing the tedious, yet reasonably simple enough any owner (or their kid/grand kid/ kid on the ramp willing to trade a day of labor for ah hour or two in your plane) can often cut out 3/4 of the install time that doesn't really need skilled labor like removing and reinstalling the interior.

It's not always about going faster or higher, information is the key to safety, and at minimum we are being held responsible to provide our location information to others around us. That is all the FAA is requiring of us, and I don't think that is an unreasonable ask. I am willing to pony up for the in as well, I'm all about having all the information I can get. I put the G-500 and 430w in the 310 in preparation. One thing doing my FRs & IPCs over the years in Av Shilo's Comanche is I got to fly the cutting edge tech as it came out from Sandel to Aspen to dual G-600 with 430/530 then full GTN stack.

The addition of information and increase in situational awareness while simultaneously taking less time from out the window to get it (and giving you eVFR in the soup) as the technology developed was awesome. I am so much better informed inflight now than 20 years ago.

I would not willingly give up that kind of technological advantage when my life is on the line regardless the cost, that is why I found the least expensive way to put it in my plane. Yes it cost $40k all in with the engine monitor and fuel flow including the tie in. Worth every dime.
 
FastEddieB said:
I'll be 70 years old in 2020, and my Sky Arrow will be 13 years old.

I'm very much in a "wait and see" mode.

I would not give up airplane ownership solely due to the added expense and complication of the ADSB mandate, but it may play a role in what I see as a decision point.

With much of the pilot population aging, I have a hunch I'm not alone.
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Maybe, I have known three active UFOs, and there's usually a pretty decent showing of them at OSH. It's just freaking money, I don't know why everybody gets so uptight about it. Money comes, money goes. Don't worry about it, and it won't worry you. There will always be more money. When I need money, money calls me.:dunno:
 
kkoran said:
Wrong.

  • Traffic - The only benefit of the mandate would be that an ADS-B IN equipped plane would be able to see you when you were outside of radar coverage.
  • Weather - The mandated ADS-B OUT equipment does not provide weather.
  • GPS Approaches - ADS-B has nothing to do with approaches
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Not wrong, I would get all of them because I would buy into the system fully with all the bells and whistles using likely a 750 to drive the W/GPS signal. I already had a G-500 and 430w in my last plane, and would likely have a 750 and G-3x in my next.
 
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Henning said:
Not wrong, I would get all of them because I would buy into the system fully with all the bells and whistles using likely a 750 to drive the W/GPS signal. I already had a G-500 and 430w in my last plane, and would likely have a 750 and G-3x in my next.
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The fact remains: ADS-B OUT only broadcasts your position to the rest of the ADS-B world. If you want to purchase additional equipment beyond what is mandated, fine; but don't use it to justify the mandate.
 
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kkoran said:
The fact remains: ADS-B OUT only broadcasts your position to the rest of the ADS-B world. If you want to purchase additional equipment beyond what is mandated, fine; but don't use it to justify the mandate.
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Understood, but since the only thing the FAA requires is ADS-B out, that is a reasonable ask given the Free Flight capability mandated to be developed for NextGen. This is just the first step in the process. It is coming. 20 years ago everyone was calling for it. Wonderful how handing our economy over to the rich in 2008 to make them richer has run GA down.
 
jesse said:
How is your airplane not worth 7.5K?
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I doubt my airplane is worth much more than $20 to $25K these days, and less after this whole ADS-B business kicks in. Spending 7.5K on something that's only worth $20K and isn't likely to be worth much more after the box goes in is foolish at best. Might just stop flying for travel and just kick around the cornfields.
 
steingar said:
I doubt my airplane is worth much more than $20 to $25K these days, and less after this whole ADS-B business kicks in. Spending 7.5K on something that's only worth $20K and isn't likely to be worth much more after the box goes in is foolish at best. Might just stop flying for travel and just kick around the cornfields.
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yup....you just go and be a quitter. :rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
It's just freaking money, I don't know why everybody gets so uptight about it. Money comes, money goes. Don't worry about it, and it won't worry you. There will always be more money. When I need money, money calls me.:dunno:
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Really? Have the money give me a holler next time it calls. I will PM you with my number.


I'm glad that it's so easy for you, and it's great that you buy in completely to this system. There are apparently a lot of aviators that think that the juice is not worth the squeeze, and they ought to be able to express that without being demeaned for it.
 
Top of page 3: "As a result, FAA is not well positioned to mandate the use of ADS-B In as directed by Congress for the foreseeable future."

The way this was sold to the flying public, ADS-B IN was all the rage, and it was going to give pilots a view of traffic around them, weather, flight info, fuel, etc. It was all AOPA needed to hear to get on board. This was all for the pilots safety and benefit.

Of course, the FAA wanted the OUT side first, so that they could gain more control and management of GA traffic, and that's just the way it played out. Who could have known? Who could have seen it? Who could have figured that the FAA/fed guv would fall down on all the promises? Well, me and anyone with a higher than room temp IQ.

I don't need to read any further but I'll peruse the rest of it.
 
winrose46 said:
As a GA pilot, I use it to see traffic around me and modify my course to avoid a potential conflict. I used to think that the see and avoid was sufficient to spot potential conflict aircraft; however, with ADS-B Out I am painting 70 % of targets that I do not see. It was comforting to hear traffic ahead on the intercom permitting me to change course before seeing a king air start across my projected flight path a month ago.
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Playing devil's advocate: Assuming you're being vigilant while flying, how big a concern is an airplane not close enough to you to actually see? With ADS-B I sometimes find my self taking time to seek out and "see" targets that will never be a threat to me.
 
LDJones said:
Playing devil's advocate: Assuming you're being vigilant while flying, how big a concern is an airplane not close enough to you to actually see? With ADS-B I sometimes find my self taking time to seek out and "see" targets that will never be a threat to me.
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I do that with TCAS all the time.... It is a great mental and visual excercise..
 
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