FAA will lay off all ARTCC meteorologists and use automated forecasting instead

What GA service is affected? Will ATC still be able to let me know what precip they’re seeing? Will I lose the forecast discussion writeups? Hate for people to lose their jobs.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
What GA service is affected? Will ATC still be able to let me know what precip they’re seeing? Will I lose the forecast discussion writeups? Hate for people to lose their jobs.
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It sounds like they're shutting down the Center Weather Service Units (CWSUs). They're essentially the weather briefers for ATC as well as keeping an eye on the weather in each Center and providing alerts to ATC, as I understand it.

Controllers will still be able to see precipitation on their scopes to the same limited extent they can now, but it means there'll be fewer eyes on the sky and ATC will likely be less aware of upcoming and existing weather.

CWSUs were put into the ARTCCs in response to the NTSB's recommendation after the Southern Airways 242 crash in 1977, but like many problems that are successfully fixed (ahem Y2K, ozone layer, etc) we seem to like to forget that there was a problem in the first place. :dunno: So here we are.

I believe the CWSUs issue Center Weather Advisories but maybe they've got a plan in place for those.

Bottom line... You probably won't notice the difference until there's a crash as a result.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
CWSUs were put into the ARTCCs in response to the NTSB's recommendation after the Southern Airways 242 crash in 1977, but like many problems that are successfully fixed (ahem Y2K, ozone layer, etc) we seem to like to forget that there was a problem in the first place. :dunno: So here we are.

I believe the CWSUs issue Center Weather Advisories but maybe they've got a plan in place for those.

Bottom line... You probably won't notice the difference until there's a crash as a result.
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I call that institutionalized complacency. Seems to be a lot of it going around in the past few years :confused:
 
Hasn't the present technology come a long way since this program was developed back in the 80"s? Seems to me they are simply bringing the system more in line with technology.
 
Remember, these are Center-level people. I got a chance to visit Indy Center last year and met one of these guys. I don’t recall all the details but he did far more than look at NEXRAD screens, as I recall. He helped a lot with forecasting flow through their region, including looking at stuff outside of their region which could impact them. Could this be automated? Possibly/probably. But there’s probably a difference between reading a report and having a discussion.

It could also possibly be centralized and outsourced but as in other threads, IMHO, Leidos hasn’t provided the same type and quality of service as the old FSS.
 
A buddy of mine is a retired ARTCC meteorologist.

One of his responsibilities each day was to help plan the flow of traffic through the sector.

That was probably his largest task: keep an eye on things and keep updating his forecasts throughout the day. Center relies on that info to know when and where to move the traffic flow.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
CWSUs were put into the ARTCCs in response to the NTSB's recommendation after the Southern Airways 242 crash in 1977, but like many problems that are successfully fixed (ahem Y2K, ozone layer, etc) we seem to like to forget that there was a problem in the first place. :dunno: So here we are.
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I wonder if there have been any technological advances over the past five decades that might present alternative solutions to the problem.
 
I believe in the next 8 years all Flight Service functions in the lower 48 will be automated - no briefers.
 
I don't really need this service....I do call Liedos mainly just to "check in" not really for info, but, to document I got a "briefing". I get my info from my iPad.
 
I'd think ATC internally is probably who utilize that the most for traffic planning. I doubt the major airlines are using FAA meteorologists for their flight planning. The little guys are all pulling their data from independent sources on their iPads anyway.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'd think ATC internally is probably who utilize that the most for traffic planning. I doubt the major airlines are using FAA meteorologists for their flight planning. The little guys are all pulling their data from independent sources on their iPads anyway.
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From what I saw at Indy, I think you’re exactly right. I don’t think they saw their weather person as a direct asset for pilots as much as for their operations.
 
dmspilot said:
I call that institutionalized complacency. Seems to be a lot of it going around in the past few years :confused:
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It's human nature. I think I need to get one of those T-shirts I've seen advertised recently that says "History sighs, repeats self."
Checkout_my_Six said:
Y'all are using your iPads....so what's the difference?
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This is not a service that is for us. It's for ATC.
Lindberg said:
I wonder if there have been any technological advances over the past five decades that might present alternative solutions to the problem.
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I don't believe so, what do you think replaces a human with responsibility for weather in the ARTCC as opposed to air traffic?
Checkout_my_Six said:
I don't really need this service....I do call Liedos mainly just to "check in" not really for info, but, to document I got a "briefing". I get my info from my iPad.
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Let me say it louder. THIS SERVICE IS NOT FOR YOU. It's for ATC.
Checkout_my_Six said:
Y'all remember how horrible it was when they closed down the FSS....right? The world came to an end then. :cool:
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The world didn't end, but the days of actually having a knowledgeable person to ask about potential weather issues did. Sure, iPads have given us a lot of great tools in the cockpit, but they don't know local weather patterns and they don't make us into anything more than amateur forecasters. And the time period between the end of FSS and when the iPad came out was bad.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's human nature. I think I need to get one of those T-shirts I've seen advertised recently that says "History sighs, repeats self."

This is not a service that is for us. It's for ATC.

I don't believe so, what do you think replaces a human with responsibility for weather in the ARTCC as opposed to air traffic?

Let me say it louder. THIS SERVICE IS NOT FOR YOU. It's for ATC.

The world didn't end, but the days of actually having a knowledgeable person to ask about potential weather issues did. Sure, iPads have given us a lot of great tools in the cockpit, but they don't know local weather patterns and they don't make us into anything more than amateur forecasters. And the time period between the end of FSS and when the iPad came out was bad.
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for the love of God.....we need to save the children. ;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
for the love of God.....we need to save the children. ;)
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Easy to dismiss something when it doesn't seem to affect you directly... But as badly as ATC is understaffed right now, we don't need to make their job harder.

Human nature, though... We're greedy, so we want the government to cut, cut, cut without necessarily understanding the effects. Then we kill a bunch of people and demand that they "do something!" and round and round we go.
 
In the Eastern Service area the Center meteorologist put out a daily weather briefing each controller has to watch prior to their shift. In theory this is actually a good idea but the actual briefings were mostly about high level winds aloft, freezing levels and weather patterns throughout the overlying center. The information contained in the briefings almost never included things pertinent to a TRACON or tower controller. I’ve heard that we won’t have to watch the briefings anymore soon and there will be an alternative. Hopefully they contain more useful information
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Easy to dismiss something when it doesn't seem to affect you directly... But as badly as ATC is understaffed right now, we don't need to make their job harder.

Human nature, though... We're greedy, so we want the government to cut, cut, cut without necessarily understanding the effects. Then we kill a bunch of people and demand that they "do something!" and round and round we go.
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Getting a bit over dramatic.....but anyway.

In the present technology it's conceivable to have a centrally located meteorologist monitoring weather systems. Each ATC facility can have a feed from that to monitor developing weather and ask the meteorologist on duty questions that may arise.
 
JAX said:
In the Eastern Service area the Center meteorologist put out a daily weather briefing each controller has to watch prior to their shift. In theory this is actually a good idea but the actual briefings were mostly about high level winds aloft, freezing levels and weather patterns throughout the overlying center. The information contained in the briefings almost never included things pertinent to a TRACON or tower controller. I’ve heard that we won’t have to watch the briefings anymore soon and there will be an alternative. Hopefully they contain more useful information
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Interesting that TRACON or tower even have to watch something from CWSU. I wouldn't think it would be very relevant either. Weather in a small area like that isn't easy to work around anyway, that's more of a go/no-go situation than a "what routings should we use" situation.
Doc Holliday said:
In the present technology it's conceivable to have a centrally located meteorologist monitoring weather systems. Each ATC facility can have a feed from that to monitor developing weather and ask the meteorologist on duty questions that may arise.
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I'm guessing one meteorologist on duty at a time for the whole country will be woefully insufficient a lot of the time. In fact, I bet even the on-duty CWSU person in a place like ZJX probably gets quite busy at certain times of day/year.

So now we're talking a centralized CWSU... Where will they be? Are we going to pay for relocation to existing meteorologists? What facilities and equipment will they need to do their job effectively, including equipment that will need to be installed at each center? (communications)

I am interested to see what the proposed solution will be. There are certainly plenty of modernization opportunities at the FAA, but I think it's important to look at why the service exists and what might be lost under the new system... And even whether a new system will be effective enough to justify anyway. This seems like it might have been a privatization move on the part of a LockMart/Boeing type contractor. "Hey, you can pay us 80% of the money for 20% of the service!"
 
How many millions should this cost? and are the commercial users paying for this?
 
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