FAA, Let us make our planes safer!

[Jay Honeck]

What weight of paper was it printed on in 1995 vs. 2010? What typeface, size, margins, spacing? Were ligatures used?

Even if all those were the same, if they re-worded things to make them easier to understand, the book would be thicker. The book's thickness is absolutely meaningless.

Really? It seems to pretty neatly sum up the problems we are facing.

More regulation is NOT going to ever help GA.

 

[wabower]

Help defined how?

Really? It seems to pretty neatly sum up the problems we are facing.

More regulation is NOT going to ever help GA.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Really? It seems to pretty neatly sum up the problems we are facing.

More regulation is NOT going to ever help GA.

I never said more regulation would help GA, nor do I think that.

What I'm saying is, if the 2010 version was printed on 22# paper instead of 20#, the font size increased by 10% and the wording made clearer, we'd have the exact same amount of regulation and it'd be easier to read, but the book would be thicker.

Now, tell me how many regs we had in 1995 vs. now, and what the differences are, and I'll listen. But the thickness of the book is far from an exact measure of the increase in regulation.

 

[bnt83]

I'm assuming we should rescind all rules that allow EAB then too.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'm assuming we should rescind all rules that allow EAB then too.

Yep. Lets just let it become a "free for all" and let everyone do as they please. While we're at it, lets just reduce pilot certification to a trip to the post office and fill out a single page form (ala hunting license) as well.

 

[wsuffa]

Are you trying to tell me that the Dallas school system isn't just about the kids?

Nice try, Wayne, but I ain't biting....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[poadeleted21]

Yep. Lets just let it become a "free for all" and let everyone do as they please. While we're at it, lets just reduce pilot certification to a trip to the post office and fill out a single page form (ala hunting license) as well.

See pt 103

 

[RotorAndWing]

See pt 103

Problem is people will complain the trip to the post office is expensive and time consuming and the one page form is too intrusive.

 

[Geico266]

You see, there is my point. Look at the lunacy we go through to work around outdated rules.

How is a yoke mounted iPad that throws off the balance of my primary control safer than screwing the thing to the panel? How is it safer to stick it to a window, obscuring view out that window, and potentially falling off once we climb high enough to reduce airpressure against the partial vacuum holding it on?

Why not just put it on the panel? or in the panel? Because the FAA won't allow it.

Maybe yes, maybe no. It should be my decision. If adding to my workload increases risk, it follows that decreasing workload decreases risk. If adding convenience decreases workload, then it also decreases risk.

Cupholders: If I have a drink handy before landing, I don't have to worry about dehydration. If I don't have to worry about my drink spilling all over the upholstery or me, I don't have to worry about dehydration. Dehydration leads to risk.

It's your choice right? By a home built.

Funny how when it is your ox being gored you are all for less regulation.

 

[Geico266]

What I don't understand us why can't I take my plane, that I own, that is flown privately, and make modifications to it as I see fit. It's my butt on the line if something goes wrong. The liability issue can be handled by requiring placarding and logbook entries that this aircraft is not be operated in accordance with the certification standards but under the experimental/amateur built rules. Once that step is done, there is no going back. Seems pretty straight forward and clean to me.

Pretty sure you can do that. It's called Experimental Exhibition. The category is for anyone wanting to do test mods and improvements to certified aircraft.

Why not just buy an experiemtnal?

 

[poadeleted21]

Problem is people will complain the trip to the post office is expensive and time consuming and the one page form is too intrusive.

I would, if the only requirement is to go fill out a form at the post office....

 

[Geico266]

The rules are different because experimental means there is no required testing rigor, and certified means there is.

You are asking that no cert testing be required for parts to be added to a plane. By definition, that puts it in experimental.

I'm sure gecko would love to sell you an RV.

No ****ing way.


After two flights she would be complaining about it being non certified.

 

[Geico266]

Is she operating a 135 gig in her C-172 ?

what we commonly see here and elsewhere is that people don't want to solve a problem, they want to throw a temper tantrum. When it is pointed out that a ready solution exists, they will find more and more arcane reasons that it's not acceptable.

 

[Geico266]

Question: If a experimental goes down that was purchased "used", does the original builder stay in the liability chain?

My fear of staying in the liability chain would pretty much mean that I'd part out or destroy any plane I built, rather than selling it for someone else to fly. At least with a certified plane, there is reduction of liability risk.

No. If you use the EAA's sales forms you are protected. There has never been a successful lawsuit against an EAB builder by the new owner or their heirs. Period.

 

[Geico266]

According to the EAA there has never been a liability judgement against a builder by a later purchaser or their estate.

 

[Geico266]

I think it's more an FAA issue. The whole thing behind E-AB is that it was built by some guy in his garage, at least so goes the theory. Some of the E-AB "owner assist" setups are pretty much getting a plane from the factory these days, but they figure out how to get that 51% just barely. Then there's the aspect of someone wanting to get the plane back to Normal cert, if it were ever desired.

I don't see the hangup, personally, but the right heads need to get locked in a room and not let out until they solve the problem.

I hope everyone realizes that all EAB Experiemtnal aircraft are inspected by the FAA and an airworthyness certificate is issued.

 

[Geico266]

I'm assuming we should rescind all rules that allow EAB then too.

Watch it buddy.

 

[Geico266]

Someone talked about factory build RV's. You can buy a factory built RV right now. There is a company ( one of several) that will custom build your RV in Brazil. It is a very modern factory producing RV's at 5-10 a month and shipping them around the world. GA dead? Only for certified planes.

Regulations prevent any new aircraft design from being built in the US at a "reasonable " price. A Cirrus is now pushing $750k? Really?

 

[bnt83]

S
Regulations prevent any new aircraft design from being built in the US at a "reasonable " price. A Cirrus is now pushing $750k? Really?

Soooo... The new diesel 182 was just an April fool's joke? I thought that actually happened.



They stopped production of the gas version for those who didn't know.

 

[Geico266]

Soooo... The new diesel 182 was just an April fool's joke? I thought that actually happened.



They stopped production of the gas version for those who didn't know.

Wow, I stand corrected, I didn't know a 182 was a new design.

.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Soooo... The new diesel 182 was just an April fool's joke? I thought that actually happened.

I think he was saying the price on it wasn't "reasonable" by his definition.

 

[bnt83]

I think he was saying the price on it wasn't "reasonable" by his definition.

I'm not sure there is such thing anywhere...


Whats the average price for a 4 place aiframe kit? No engine, radios, avionics, etc. $45k? That's reasonable?

 

[Ted]

I hope everyone realizes that all EAB Experiemtnal aircraft are inspected by the FAA and an airworthyness certificate is issued.

My friend has his inspection today. From talking to his friends, it's more or less a control check, paperwork check, and that's about it. Let's not confuse this with anything near the rigor of a certification effort for a plane.

 

[bnt83]

Wow, I stand corrected, I didn't know a 182 was a new design.

.

Lets not forget that 75% (guessing probably higher) EAB are fly around on the coat tails of the certificated engine makers, powered by vintage aircraft engines. especially the most sucessfull EAB manufacturers


New design...

 

[poadeleted21]

Someone talked about factory build RV's. You can buy a factory built RV right now. There is a company ( one of several) that will custom build your RV in Brazil. It is a very modern factory producing RV's at 5-10 a month and shipping them around the world. GA dead? Only for certified planes.

Regulations prevent any new aircraft design from being built in the US at a "reasonable " price. A Cirrus is now pushing $750k? Really?

Ignoring the definition of GA and limiting it to single engine piston.

My airport has 5 Bonanzas, 2 Mooney's, several Cessna's and Pipers, a few Grummans, one hangar full of guys who like Musketeers (they have three), a guy who collects antique planes, an LSA, 2 ultralights, some tail dragger pipers and 2 experimentals that are laying in pieces that haven't been touched in decades (A Christian Eagle and an RV of some variety), and wadded up Cozy. We had a fly in, only one exp turned out for the party, a Harmon Rocket. In the past year, I've only seen 2 experimentals in actual airworthy condition.

 

[Geico266]

Lets not forget that 75% (guessing probably higher) EAB are fly around on the coat tails of the certificated engine makers, powered by vintage aircraft engines. especially the most sucessfull EAB manufacturers


New design...

You missed the point, badly.

 

[bnt83]

Ignoring the definition of GA and limiting it to single engine piston.

My airport has 5 Bonanzas, 2 Mooney's, several Cessna's and Pipers, a few Grummans, one hangar full of guys who like Musketeers (they have three), a guy who collects antique planes, an LSA, 2 ultralights, some tail dragger pipers and 2 experimentals that are laying in pieces that haven't been touched in decades (A Christian Eagle and an RV of some variety), and wadded up Cozy. We had a fly in, only one exp turned out for the party, a Harmon Rocket. In the past year, I've only seen 2 experimentals in actual airworthy condition.

Tea SD (near sioux falls) is the opposite, I think the EAB to certificated ratio is much closer to 50/50 or passed it.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Someone talked about factory build RV's. You can buy a factory built RV right now. There is a company ( one of several) that will custom build your RV in Brazil. It is a very modern factory producing RV's at 5-10 a month and shipping them around the world. GA dead? Only for certified planes.

Regulations prevent any new aircraft design from being built in the US at a "reasonable " price. A Cirrus is now pushing $750k? Really?

What does a fully finished RV 10 run? Just curious re: new Cirrus.

 

[bnt83]

What does a fully finished RV 10 run? Just curious re: new Cirrus.

I'm curious what the EAB equivelent (in features since garmin is now in the biz should be something) to G1000 costs. Ciri I think also has standard airconditioning. So your going to get a lot of apples to oranges trying to compare them.

Air is still optional... at a cost of 55 pounds

 

[AuntPeggy]

Peggy, what you have shown through this thread is that people like you are the reason the regulations exist. They are there so that people who don't know better are prevented from doing things that they think are improvements but really aren't.

Not meant as an insult, just an observation.

My cupholders are a threat?

 

[AuntPeggy]

Peggy, what you have shown through this thread is that people like you are the reason the regulations exist. They are there so that people who don't know better are prevented from doing things that they think are improvements but really aren't.

Not meant as an insult, just an observation.

No, really, "what you have shown" is not an observation. What specifically have you observed that is unsafe?

 

[poadeleted21]

My cupholders are a threat?

I've seen the incorrect screw in upholstery trim become a threat.

 

[bnt83]

I've seen the incorrect screw in upholstery trim become a threat.

I've seen a LOT of upholstry that was installed with minimal thought as to what they were drilling into on old spam cans...

 

[AuntPeggy]

Look at the statistics on safety of autos. Been getting better every year since the 70s.

You could argue that part of that has been due to regulation.

I agree. But the regulations are actually reinforcing safety.

Huh? Aren't you ranting against the regulations here? It's the regulations, not "the FAA", that cause it to be somewhat difficult and expensive to make modifications to certified aircraft. Yes, the FAA writes the regulations, but you seem to be saying that the regulations are "reinforcing safety" and hurting it at the same time.

I could agree that both are happening, depending on the reg - I'd say part 91 tends to help safety while part 23 and to some extent part 43 hurt it, but you're talking in circles if you leave those details out.

In context, this statement about regulations concerns auto safety, not the FAA.

 

[EdFred]

They make these really cool devices called bottles. They even have caps you can put back on, and nothing spills out. Even if I go negative G the liquid stays inside. They are freaking amazing!

 

[Ted]

No, really, "what you have shown" is not an observation. What specifically have you observed that is unsafe?

An attitude that says some things are obvious when you don't have enough technical knowledge to really understand what you don't see?

Take torque to yield bolts. Anyone can look at them after torquing and say they look just fine. So let's reuse them! Wait a second, the fact that they are designed to torque into the yield zone means when you retorque them they will be in a weaker zone and may fail. But you don't know that by what's obvious.

Your cupholders may get drilled in through a fuel line.

Your seat belts may not be tied into a proper structural mounting point if you need to add a shoulder harness. Or even if you have a shoulder harness, let's say you add a 4-point setup, where do you tie that in to work?

The electronics that you mount and are depending your life upon may have a software flaw that causes it to crash at inopportune times when you need it most (happened to me).

Should I go on? I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be allowed at your own risk, but the whole point of certified is that there is some level of protection with other people who have a clue looking over the idea and testing it. That's why we have E-AB, which you haven't yet given a valid reason why it doesn't fit your needs given your wants.

 

[AuntPeggy]

They make these really cool devices called bottles. They even have caps you can put back on, and nothing spills out. Even if I go negative G the liquid stays inside. They are freaking amazing!

And your point is... that everything is OK and the cost of improving the safety of aircraft has only a beneficial effect on the safety of aviation in our community. Right?

 

[poadeleted21]

And your point is... that everything is OK and the cost of improving the safety of aircraft has only a beneficial effect on the safety of aviation in our community. Right?

Get your slot on a new biz jet, hire a couple of professional pilots and rest well on your leather couch during the flight. Two turbines in the hands of two capable pilots is about the best safety feature I can think of.

 

[dell30rb]

Should I go on? I'm not saying that these things shouldn't be allowed at your own risk, but the whole point of certified is that there is some level of protection with other people who have a clue looking over the idea and testing it. That's why we have E-AB, which you haven't yet given a valid reason why it doesn't fit your needs given your wants.

Right on Ted...

 

[bnt83]

Get your slot on a new biz jet, hire a couple of professional pilots and rest well on your leather couch during the flight. Two turbines in the hands of two capable pilots is about the best safety feature I can think of.

BS!! Ever watch Youtube?