FAA approved drug...Lithium?

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Unregistered, May 4, 2012.

  1. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Hello,
    I'm only 44 in great shape been flying ELSA Rans S12, I've been taken Lithium for about a year now very low dose I want to get my Medical back. What say you guys do you think I can being on Lithium? I'll be on it for the rest of my life.

    Thanks and Be safe!
     
  2. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I'm sure Bruce will be by with the definitive, but I'd suspect the short answer is, "no". It's not just the meds but the underlying condition that's an issue.
     
  3. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    By Odin I hope not. Forgive me, I know it's mean, and I don't like to be so. But those suffering the illnesses treated by lithium should not be flying aircraft. Even though the illness may be in remission now, it could return and affect your judgment.
     
  4. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Should not be flying" Yeah right so what I have a little bi-polar. Lithium is all-so used to treat cluster head-aches.
    So your BS comment about "Anybody on Lithium should not be flying" Is a bunch of bull...
    Get you facts!

    I suppose you are going to tell me I should not be scuba diving either? How about driving a car?? That's the most risk a person does everyday and driving and talking....wow!

    How about serving in the Arm-forces protection your rights? If it was not for people like me you could not lay your head down at night and be save!!

    What do you know about Lithium?? Come on tell me!
     
  5. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack En-Route

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    Steingar is a biochemist and has probably forgotten more about this stuff than most people have learned.
     
  6. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    And "a little bi-polar" is probably a lot disqualifying. What I've learned from reading Bruce's comments is that the FAA is taking the same sort of baby steps regarding mental illnesses that they did with diabetes. And eventually diabetes went from being "hell no" to "special issuance for certain cases" to a well-defined process that gets most of the diabetics out there eligible for some sort of certificate.

    My "guess" is that there will be a similar long, careful process for things like SSRIs and such.
     
  7. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Ok, here I'll settle down LI is a natural element, found in our water and food. LI is on the element chart just like 'K' or 'P' . You are consuming small amounts of it every day.
    Do you know what Neurogenesis, LI will promote/increase gray matter in your brain.

    So are you saying I should not be flying E-LSA either?
     
  8. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    That's a question for you and your doctors. If they're not comfortable with you driving, then you shouldn't be flying. Or, if they tell you you shouldn't be flying, then you shouldn't be flying.
     
  9. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach

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    To answer the original question, not a chance in h e double hocky sticks that you would get an FAA medical.
     
  10. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Like I said, it's about the underlying condition. What is the result if you do not take it? Can an attack of cluster headache be debilitating? Can it effect your vision or ability to think reasonably? The issue is to further restrict the people you can kill the more likely you are to be debilitated by the affect. With a Class III you can take 12 or so pretty easily. You'll need to wait for someone like Bruce.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  11. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Based on your posts, probably not. But as stated by others, that's a matter for you to discuss with whoever's prescribing the lithium. If that medical practitioner agrees that you can safely perform as a Sport Pilot, then legally you can do so. Me? I'd need to fly with you some before I'd be able to say that, although to be honest, based on your posts, I'd be operating on a "guilty until proved innocent" basis.
     
  12. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's so rare we agree....
     
  13. bbchien

    bbchien Final Approach

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    It is not on the acceptable list of medication for severe headache. 'Course you never told what subtype of headache you are thought to have....and many true bipolars present with headache.

    Lithium has an extraordinarily terrible side effect profile for aviation. It also affects judgement and sleep cycles. It also rots your glomeruli.

    You will also be fighting the presumtion of bipolar diesase right to the NTSB.

    Have you got $300,000 for experts? If you do, have at. But the Federal Air Surgeon, Federal Psychiatrist, and the whole of AAM 200 will oppose you every step of the way. Actually, it'd be more like $500,000 in current dollars.

    Most airmen, without psychiatric disease, would simply ask their docs to find something certifiable that works.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  14. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    " Guilty" of what? Not being able to control the aircraft in a safe manner? I'm a Commercial rated pilot with over 2000+ hours, I have my own airstrip (hay field or gravel road).
    20 years ago I was a lot worst I just had enough when I got in my forties so I went in.
    So what I fly my M5-210c without a medical, the Rans I can fly without a medical so no harm there. Oh yeah I have over 600 hours of T/W time!
    So please I see you have a closed mind!
    I'll bet if I went in to renew my medical and I was not true-full on the app no one would be the wiser.
     
  15. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No need to freak out, chill, take some Lithium... can you smoke it? You asked if you can get your medical back on that drug and the answer is no. Fly whatever you please with whomever in it. It will not be sanctioned or insured so the liability is all yours; that's pretty much the point that anybody quits caring. So long as you can't get a job flying, the FAA isn't that bloody oppressive in enforcement of medicals.
     
  17. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I am sorry I offended you. I suspected I would. However, I have my facts. Lithium isn't prescribed for "a little bipolar" or pesky little headaches. The conditions permissive for it's use are potentially debilitating. In my opinion, anyone on this particular drug shouldn't be flying anything bigger than a kite.

    Scuba diving, for the most part you risk your self, and not the schoolyard full of children that might be the recipient of your flaming wreckage.

    It is a potent antagonist of canonical wnt-signaling pathways, which have tremendously important roles in development and homeostasis. I suspect it affects far more than just nephronal glomerulae, though I certainly have no data to back up my suspicions, although the usual treatment dose and the toxic dose are not far apart. I genuinely don't know why it has effects on mania, and I'm not certain it's mechanism of action is known. Wasn't last time I looked. The MDs might have one on my there.

    That the armed forces entrusts lethal ordinance to manics neither surprises nor boosts my confidence any. Lucky for you, the FAA doesn't listen to me or my pals. They've created a class of license called Sport Pilot, by which you and your pills can fly all day. If you want to be in the air, I would suggest taking that tack. Dr. Chien is a foremost expert of what the FAA will or won't allow, I'd be surprised if he didn't know more than anyone else alive. We are truly fortunate to have his wise counsel. You might try heeding it.
     
  18. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No, the mechanisms of Lithium treatment really are still not known or even reasonably suspected at this point. Conductivity booster?:dunno:

    Military claims have been falsified here before, I don't take them immediately at face value.
     
  19. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack En-Route

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    Already mentioned by Steingar.
     
  20. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yep, that's who I was responding to, I keep up on the a bit of the latest reading since most if the girls I know are nuts...;)
     
  21. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack En-Route

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    I'm pretty sure he knows his stuff and needs little help from the likes of us.

    PS: You reading the National Inquirer isn't the "latest reading" to the real scientists here.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  22. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    Michael, Lithium is often used to treat conditions other than BiPolar disorder. it can and is often used to enhance the effects of SSRIs. As we know some folks with depression are now permitted to get a medical. Not sure if the SSRI exception is blown by addition of Lithium.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  23. bbchien

    bbchien Final Approach

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    The SSRI protocol is for only one med at a time, and it must be one of the 4 named in the pathway.
    I keep waiting for somebody on lithium to be reasonable and to NOT shoot back that he'll just lie, because he's fine. I am disappointed once again....and I know not why I keep waiting for somebody reasonable who takes that med.

    You're not here to inquire, and I answered your question, for which I see was a waste of breath.

    You know, you don't have to have a medical or a rating at all to fly. You simply do, however if you want insurance that will pay off. Please note that the first time you bend metal or violate ATC, the LiCO3 codes will be all over your insurance file (which is not a part of the medical record) and the subpoenas will fly. If they want to, they can levey a pretty stiff Civil Monetary Penalty for each time you violate ($2,000 per occurance).

    Lastly, I hope you stay out of my airspace.
     
  24. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    What makes you think people taking "Lithium" cannot operate as normal? What's normal anyway? I'm sure some of you drink way to much and are mean to your wifes or gay partners....
    There's a huge difference from someone taking 1200mg to the 150mg I take. I did not lie nor distort the facts about my flying past. I'm willing to bet I get more flying time in per week then 90% of you clowns, so I know I'm current and safe.

    I did my research before asking this board about 'LI' I have the link to the FAA drug database, I already knew it was not an approved drug. But I wanted to see your reaction, the clown pilot who said something about killing a yard full of school children, dude that's a huge leap don't you think? You want to imply I can not fully control the aircraft....WHAT?
    If you were standing next to me you would not know the difference, and I'll bet you would fly with me no question ask! Yeah yeah you can come up with some bull about I don't fly with strangers...sure sure! Make it up as you go.

    What I'm seeing here you people have an distorted view no facts not knowing jack about Lithium, I'll bet before me asking and you go Googling you had no ideal, other then the horror stories from the 50ies Zombie era.

    I don;t need a piece of paper to tell me if I'm health enought to control the aircraft in a safe mannor.
     
  25. Anthony

    Anthony Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't know, maybe switch to Thorazine?


    :rolleyes:
     
  26. Anymouse

    Anymouse Pattern Altitude

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    That rant sounds SO familiar!
     
  27. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack En-Route

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    Probably research into the underlying conditions and side effects.

    The element is abbraviated "Li"


    Dr. Bruce and Steingar have a very good handle on the current research. I'm sorry you don't like their responses, but that really doesn't change anything. They certainly know the facts as current research understand them. Please don't insult their knowledge or intellegence because you don't like the answer they gave.

    And I hope you do control aircraft in a safe manner.
     
  28. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's not anybody, people here believe YOU can't operate as 'normal' because you display all the signs of being the lunatic that the Lithium is prescribed for, whatever the cause of your mental deviation from the norm. As for 'what is normal', that's a good question; in this type of situation it's rated by the decisions and judgements you exhibit under certain conditions and gauging your thoughts and reactions in comparison to what the those under the middle of the curve would experience.

    Regardless the drug again, the hostility you show here is a detrimental factor to the issuance of a medical. From your writings here in this thread, it would be easy for someone providing an evaluation to come to the conclusion that you are a risk for a psychotic snap and that when it happens you would likely seek a destructive outlet and if were in a plane at the time you would have too many options too predict; in other words, you're a bad risk.

    You sir come across as a very bad risk; you will be stuck with LSA and Pt 103 Ultralights to fly for the rest of your life. One last time, it has nothing to do with the drugs, it has to do with YOU. YOU are nuts which is why the system considers you unsafe, not because of what you can or can't do at this momement, but rather for the unpredictability of what you may do 20 minutes from now. How you do on your meds doesn't matter either because mental patients are notorious for not taking their meds.

    Just face it, you're not getting a medical taking Lithium at this point, the answer is 'No'. That you can't seem to accept that fact with some matter of aplomb shows further that you're nuts because you can't even see the rest of the world's concern. Embrace your insanity, accept it and learn to deal with it. THIS is how you earn privilege and respect when you have mental illness. Watch 'A Beautiful Mind' that shows the effort it takes to really succeed with mental illness. Now Professor Nash had schizophrenia and he managed a Nobel Prize, so perhaps you can manage your condition better in the future as well.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  29. bbchien

    bbchien Final Approach

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    I rest my case. Why do I respond to clowns like this?
     
  30. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Based on your posts, I suspect any good AME would during the examination realize that all was not right with you. And merely controlling the plane is, while necessary, not sufficient to demonstrate that you can safely fly as a Sport Pilot. Other areas include judgement and aeronautical decision making, and your posts suggest yours might not be up to standards.
     
  31. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Chlorpromazine is used to treat the symptoms of schizophrenia.
    Can you think of anything more dumb to say??
     
  32. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Nope, that statement took the prize in this thread for dumb things to say, you're not just nuts, you're stupid too.
     
  33. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    Thanks Bruce, figured you be along in a bit to clear that up.
     
  34. poadeleted21

    poadeleted21 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    On the internet we state:

    44 years old, commercial pilot, 2000+ hours, 600 T/W, Rans S2, M5-210C, has own strip, expired medical, military service, prescribed lithium...
    And where do we file this under anti-authority, macho, invulnerability or all of the above? OP you might as well haves called up the FAA... you already wrote the SQL query for them, if they're interested... That is, if you're not just troll in'

    If I were you, I'd be lobbying the mods to delete this thread ASAP.
     
  35. fgcason

    fgcason En-Route

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    You see, that's the actual problem here that the FAA has the real problem with. It's not the drug or the attitude or any of that other stuff that is commonly considered the problem. It's what the drug doesn't do when absent that's the problem.

    The actual problem is this: The part of the software (brain) that determines if it's not operating properly is not operating properly and must be intentionally altered to allow it to know when it's having a problem. IOW, without the drug, the individual is unable to determine if they are screwed up and/or not dealing with reality correctly. Since the defective master caution panel in the brain says everything is ok, the person continues to operate like it is ok even when it's extremely blatantly not right in the real world. (Ever followed a failing artificial horizon that doesn't have a gyro failure flag while under the hood? Same thing)
    It's not like the flu or some other straighforward physical plague like that. Icky stomach, puke repeatedly for hours, I'm sick therefore I need to sit at home or go to the doctor until I'm better. Mental problems that are not under control are like; icky stomach, puke repeatedly for hours and while puking your shoes up on other people, you're thinking you're perfectly healthy and the people that are complaining that you're puking on them are obviously crazy. (That's oversimplified however the concept is valid)

    Add in that people on medications for mental problems tend to go off their meds because they don't think it's really necessary for whatever reason and they are unable to realize their perception of reality is not necessarily not real. It's a runaway negative reinforcement failure. The longer they're off the meds, the less likely they are to notice they are not functioning properly and need the meds..thus less likely to identify the problem..so they continue to not take the meds. They think everything is perfectly ok with them while in reality everyone else in the world is trying to stay back from the fruitcake that has gone screaming nuts bonkers. At least a drunk can put the beer down and look at their wrecked car the next day and realize they screwed up and shouldn't drink and drive. It doesn't work that way when the drug is used to keep you from crashing your car in the first place.

    The FAA's job via medicals is not to be an ass or ground anyone. They are actually there for the better good of everyone across the board even if they are a flaming PITA sometimes. It's to make sure a pilot will not go bonkers and kill a bunch of innocent bystanders or themselves two hours later or a year from now. From their observations, lithium is typically used to control the problem of not being able to know there's a problem which is a big warning sign to them. It's then up to the individual and that individuals actually qualified doctors (not unqualified GP types) to prove that the lithium is not essential for the individuals ability to determine real reality even when they go off the drug for weeks at a time. Fail the reality check without the drug and the FAA will justifiably ground you.


    And don't poop on Doc Bruce unless you are willing to take him on in front of the entire FAA medical board. He specializes in the hard to certify cases and he's been doing it for well over a decade that I know of. There are lost causes flying today because he walked them through the process and those individuals did what he asked them to do. Some succeeded, some didn't, it just depended on the situation however there are a lot of people flying today that wouldn't be if it wasn't for his help. If anyone can get you in the air on Li, he can, and if he can't, which he probably can't, you're most likely stuck on the ground if you're going to play by the established rules. If you want to change the rules, line up your ducks and gate crash OKC with repeatedly verifiable proof that they are wrong and you are right. Doc Bruce will do what he can to help anyone however he will only be useful to you if you are on his side of the battle and not shooting turds at him. If you don't like what he says or asks you to do, that's your problem, not his.
     
  36. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

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    Dude is a troll. Can't fly a kite is my guess.
     
  37. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Agreed Bruce. I think he put up this thread to get confirmation of what he wanted to hear. Anything else, and oh, they must be wrong! He thinks he's the big expert, and won't listen to you, the best AME there is, or me, one of the best scientists on the board. He hasn't shown either of us one whit wrong about anything because, well, we aren't. I hope neither of us have to share the skies with this guy.

    Don't know why I respond to these things either. Ego I guess. Sometimes I wish I could have that surgically removed.
     
  38. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Ah, yes...
     
  39. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No need, no need to even consider it a bad thing lol.

    Personally I will give the OP one break if he checks in and gets off Lithium under supervision of someone new. It's not like shrinks aren't 80%ers too. Lithium if misprescribed will present these behaviors as well. It's not like the mental health industry is all that bloody competent.
     
  40. One Short

    One Short Line Up and Wait

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    This guy doesn't drive a little red car, does he?