FAA ANPRM Remove Transponder Exception For Gliders

[jnmeade]

Here is an FAA ANPRM which requests comments on proposal to remove transponder and ADS-B Out exceptions for gliders.

FAA is asking for specific and concrete responses to a number of questions.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-06-16/pdf/2015-14818.pdf

My first reaction was, "first (my) glider, then every other aircraft (my Champ)?", but of course that is off the point and not what FAA asks about.

My glider has no electricity, so obviously I would have to add a battery, wiring, equipment and antennas. That all costs money, time, maintenance and weight. The FAA asks for specific details - a breakdown of these points, not just an obvious recap which, in fact, they already state as a basis for the discussion they expect to develop.

The FAA asks about TABS, also.

I don't know what would happen if my battery ran out before my flight ended. One assumes also one would need a radio to respond to ATC talking to one about the transponder or ADS-B.

Let the discussion begin.

 

[BillTIZ]

This is a big move, FAA is asking for advice instead of coming up with a rule and then going to the NPRM, in which case nothing much changes.

My research on TABS is limited, but it's not much different than ADSB. It will still require an approved GPS, (read WAAS quality). TABS hints at being used on balloons and skydivers, think hangliders too. But based on the TSO defining the requirements for TABS, it will be "panel mounted".

This ANPRM appears to be a research effort by FAA to see what the real impact will be, in dollars, weight, limited space, electrical etc. this is in response to the NTSB report following the glider/jet mid air near Reno.

There are many "standard " certificated gliders that do not have any electrical system from the factory. These aircraft will require a field approval 337 or some enterprising person to develope and STC for most gliders to install a battery and TABS or transponder with GPS out data, extended squitter.

Do not believe that this will be limited to gliders, expect Cubs, Champ, anything that does not currently require a transponder to need one. Look at the airspace limitations under 91.215 where transponders are exempt, below 10,000 and outside 30nm from class B and a few other areas.

This is just the beginning of positive airspace control below 18,000 MSL.

 

[dans2992]

I think it's feasible if they remove the expensive "certification" requirements from some of these ADS-B out boxes. Portable, uncertified systems should be allowed.

Also, it should be ADS-B out only, no transponder. What's the point since there is way more value in having ADS-B out than in having a transponder.

 

[BillTIZ]

For experimental aircraft, I believe they have removed the certification to TSO standards. But you have to meet the standard, just not prove it with expensive paperwork. FAA has never allowed any "portable" device that I am aware of.

I agree that ADSB alone should be enough, but the transponder is still required for legacy systems. I believe that TCAS responds to transponders, not ADSB data. Until all of that goes away, and ATC airport surveillance radar still requires transponders, we need both.

 

[kmacht]

I don't get it so educate me if I am missing somthing. If everyone else has to have a transponder (and maybe ADSB eventually) to fly in class A, B, or C airspace then why shouldn't gliders be required too? If anything I would think gliders having some sort of position reporting capability in busy airspace would be a good thing since they are unlikely to follow a normal flight path and instead move around to follow thermals. Not having a transponder doesn't keep them from flying. There is plenty of airspace out there that isunder A,B,or C. My sonex is not equipped wth a transponder and I have no problem finding a pretty straight route from Connecticut to Oskhosh that doesn't require I use one. With that being said this sounds like a good opportunity for some company to come out with a lightweight portable transponder with a built in battery.

Keith

 

[BillTIZ]

Gliders do not fly in A, B or C airspace. When flying in Class A wave window, it's an ATC clearance into airspace they keep clear of traffic. Class B, just forget about it. Class C, maybe, but have a transponder.

91.215 and the associated ADSB regulation currently exemp "aircraft with no engine driven electrical system" to include gliders, J-3 Cubs, Champs etc. from having a transponder or ADSB. The ANPRM is discussing changing that.

Until the recent years, classic transponders were power hogs. Gliders have no electrical "system", many rely on small 12V 10amp Hr battery for small radio and low current drain electronics, like compaq PDAs with GPS driving moving map displays. Some just carry a handheld radio.

The cost to equip a $10K to $xxxK glider could easily be the same as current ADSB options.
The kicker is, standard certificated aircraft with no electrical system, needing a 337 field approval for a battery and required system install at a cost quickly approaching the cost of the glider. FAA is very archaic on field approving 337s.

Our training SGS 2-33A relies on a handheld radio. No electrical system at all. As is worth about $14K. Add a $2500 transponder (no GPS) or the mentioned TABS system, easily $3500+ installed, plus a battery and wires and a $1500 radio. But again the kicker, getting a 337 approved for the installation. No STC available.

 

[dans2992]

Someone should be able to manufacture a portable ADS-B out system for under $1000.

(Ok, so maybe that's aggressive by a couple hundred $, but still)

 

[BillTIZ]

I don't get it so educate me if I am missing somthing. If everyone else has to have a transponder (and maybe ADSB eventually) to fly in class A, B, or C airspace then why shouldn't gliders be required too? If anything I would think gliders having some sort of position reporting capability in busy airspace would be a good thing since they are unlikely to follow a normal flight path and instead move around to follow thermals. Not having a transponder doesn't keep them from flying. There is plenty of airspace out there that isunder A,B,or C. My sonex is not equipped wth a transponder and I have no problem finding a pretty straight route from Connecticut to Oskhosh that doesn't require I use one. With that being said this sounds like a good opportunity for some company to come out with a lightweight portable transponder with a built in battery.

Keith

Kieth, I agree with your thinking on "portable " transponders or the TABS system being proposed. FAA has difficulty with portable position reporting devices and only allows WAAS capable GPS systems to report position.

Push your ideas on the ANPRM comments.

Your Sonex is experimental, you have recieved some ADSB relief. You have an engine driven electrical system? You can get from Conn to OSH below 10K MSL. Hard to go anywhere below 10K out west, especially in a glider.

Our glider club is within the 30nm Mode C veil which adds other complications re: 91.215.