FAA Accredited Program When Not In College?

[oregonboy109]

Ok so here's the deal. I'm on the home stretch of my PPL and should be wrapping it up within the next month. I want to start my IR rating soon after. The school I'm with is an accredited program where the minimum ATP hours is 1250 (I think) vs 1500 for non-accredited programs. As I understand in order to be eligible for the "1250 rule" you have to have gotten your IR and Commercial ratings through the accredited program, in my case, a college program. Since I'm 17 and not in college, can I train through the non-student program (same instructors, same ground school same everything accept you don't get college credit) for my IR rating and still be eligible for the 1250 rule?

Any help would be much appreciated!

Sam

 

[BillTIZ]

You need to ask the school offering the program that question.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Well, the 1250 is for if you get an associates degree. The program is 1000 if you get an approved BS degree.

As for the rest, no idea, but I highly doubt it.

 

[James331]

Funny how 4 years of classroom stuff, most having nothing to do with aviation, somehow equals 500hrs of flight time

Another option (though somewhat late for the OP), drop out of high school early, take the GED test, which a chimp could pass, and start college early.

High school is mostly socialization, if you're popular and get a few party invites you got 90% of what high school has to offer you, move on to college and get into the job market ASAP.

No reason to draw out childhood, we draw it out long enough now days.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no provision in 14 CFR 61.160 for a reduction in the 1500 hour requirement for anyone not holding at least an Associate degree from an accredited, FAA-approved institute of higher learning. You're going to have to go to college and get that degree in order to qualify for the reduced hours restricted ATP under that regulation.

 

[oregonboy109]

What I found out is that I can get IR before college, from the accredited 141 school I'm already training at, then do commercial and get a degree from an accredited college and still be eligible for the R-ATP. The commercial and degree were never in question. I was always planning to get those regardless of when I did the instrument. I just didn't like the idea of waiting a year and a half until I'm in college to get my IR.
Thanks for your input guys!
Sam

 

[James331]

You do know that you're not competitive with most applicants for any type of airline job with hardly over 1k hrs and a Jr ATP right?

 

[AuntPeggy]

You do know that you're not competitive with most applicants for any type of airline job with hardly over 1k hrs and a Jr ATP right?

With a go-getter attitude, he has a leg up on the competition.

 

[oregonboy109]

Yep I realize that. Just having the option doesn't mean it's what I'll do but it's good to have the option.
Sam

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

You do know that you're not competitive with most applicants for any type of airline job with hardly over 1k hrs and a Jr ATP right?

With a restricted ATP today, he could walk into roughly 80% of the regionals out there. Other than Compass, basically a restricted ATP gets you on anywhere.

 

[James331]

With a restricted ATP today, he could walk into roughly 80% of the regionals out there. Other than Compass, basically a restricted ATP gets you on anywhere.

Unless there is someone with a real ATP applying for the job, or someone with 135/ 121 experience and enough hours for a real ATP applying for the job

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Unless there is someone with a real ATP applying for the job, or 135/ 121 experience and enough hours for a real ATP applying for the job

Clearly you aren't familiar with the market today. There aren't people applying to these places.

 

[jordane93]

Unless there is someone with a real ATP applying for the job, or someone with 135/ 121 experience and enough hours for a real ATP applying for the job

There were 5 instructors at our flight school that recently got on with Republic Airways, none of which had their ATP (had the ATP written).

 

[James331]

Clearly you aren't familiar with the market today. There aren't people applying to these places.

For the good regionals there sure are.

Go try to get on with someone like Horizion with a wannabe ATP and low hours.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

For the good regionals there sure are.

Go try to get on with someone like Horizion with a wannabe ATP and low hours.

Define good. Horizon, in my opinion, would be one of the worst to work for. Just because you see it as good, doesn't mean its good for everyone. The long and short is, within a few years an R-ATP is going to be the ticket to a 121 job.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Define good. Horizon, in my opinion, would be one of the worst to work for. Just because you see it as good, doesn't mean its good for everyone. The long and short is, within a few years an R-ATP is going to be the ticket to a 121 job.

What's the difference 500 hours of banner towing post ATP instead of before ATP? Are people really going anywhere with 1,000 hours?

 

[James331]

Define good. Horizon, in my opinion, would be one of the worst to work for. Just because you see it as good, doesn't mean its good for everyone. The long and short is, within a few years an R-ATP is going to be the ticket to a 121 job.

Ahh the impending pilot shortage

It's still just a poker game though, and a real ATP and high hours always beats a jr ATP and low hours.

The better jobs will get the better applicants, the lesser airlines will take whoever they can get.

 

[hook_dupin]

Just to put this in perspective: a 250 hour difference is about two or three months of flying as a CFI at a busy flight school.

I personally think a cheaper Part 61 program and a non-aviation college degree will be a higher pay-back than one of the schools with the reduced R-ATP mins.

 

[dlsmith]

Just chiming in here, a student coming through an accredited program does have a little bit of a reputation proceeding them. For example, I've talked to several people at several companies, and the consensus seems to be that there is a preference for programs like ours because the quality of the pilots is consistent, and they are taking less of a risk in hiring them. Good thing they dont see them in training, nobody would get hired


I've known very good pilots to come out of both types of training. And I've done a mix of both I suppose. I will say that the classroom environment here definitely helps my ground knowledge. You have extremely knowledgeable people teaching you these subjects, and each area seems to have its own expert, as opposed to a CFI teaching it all to you. After seeing both, I've determined that the university program makes you much more knowledgeable beyond the airplane, understanding the how and why.

Maybe thats valuable to you, maybe it's not. But in my opinion, it's worth it. YMMV

 

[James331]

Just chiming in here, a student coming through an accredited program does have a little bit of a reputation proceeding them. For example, I've talked to several people at several companies, and the consensus seems to be that there is a preference for programs like ours because the quality of the pilots is consistent, and they are taking less of a risk in hiring them. Good thing they dont see them in training, nobody would get hired


I've known very good pilots to come out of both types of training. And I've done a mix of both I suppose. I will say that the classroom environment here definitely helps my ground knowledge. You have extremely knowledgeable people teaching you these subjects, and each area seems to have its own expert, as opposed to a CFI teaching it all to you. After seeing both, I've determined that the university program makes you much more knowledgeable beyond the airplane, understanding the how and why.

Maybe thats valuable to you, maybe it's not. But in my opinion, it's worth it. YMMV

By the time you have enough hours to be marketable no one really cares where you went to flight school, just where you worked last and what you flew last and who you know.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

By the time you have enough hours to be marketable no one really cares where you went to flight school, just where you worked last and what you flew last and who you know.

No, but where you went to college/flight school can certainly open up networking opportunities.

 

[James331]

No, but where you went to college/flight school can certainly open up networking opportunities.

So can working the line at a airport, or working in aviation in general, heck of a lot less debt going that route too.

 

[dlsmith]

By the time you have enough hours to be marketable no one really cares where you went to flight school, just where you worked last and what you flew last and who you know.

So say you have 2 CFIs applying at an airline. One learned to fly Part 61 and instructed for said 61 establishment, which they've never heard of. The other went through a well known and respected accredited university flight school, and possibly even instructed there. The airline has already hired a number of said school's former students, and has seen consistently good results.

Both built their time instructing in 172s, Arrows, and Seminoles.

Which is the safer bet, with all else being equal?


This was the way it was broken down to me by someone in a position with the authority to make such a decision.

I'm not necessarily advocating either route, and certainly not saying that either system produces a better pilots. I've seen good and poor pilots come from both, but I thought he had a valid point

 

[ClimbnSink]

Ya cause riddle students have such a glowing reputation. School glory only works if the hiring guy went to the same school and then it is alumni preference, not hot skillz. Good employee correlations to university flight programs, which from the point of hiring is thousands of hours ago, are imaginary.

 

[dlsmith]

Don't get me started on Riddle students. Thats a dirty word around here


I do know for a fact that we've had one large regional airline come to us looking for pilots, and a couple good pilots got a foot in the door for our guys at another, it was their ace in the hole, so to speak, and the same airline scooped up another half dozen of them this fall. And really, with guys getting the R-ATP at 1000hrs, theyre not very far from the flight school.

Like I said, YMMV, and I may be a bit biased, but it does seem to be a plus from my observation

 

[James331]

So say you have 2 CFIs applying at an airline. One learned to fly Part 61 and instructed for said 61 establishment, which they've never heard of. The other went through a well known and respected accredited university flight school, and possibly even instructed there. The airline has already hired a number of said school's former students, and has seen consistently good results.

Both built their time instructing in 172s, Arrows, and Seminoles.

Which is the safer bet, with all else being equal?


This was the way it was broken down to me by someone in a position with the authority to make such a decision.

I'm not necessarily advocating either route, and certainly not saying that either system produces a better pilots. I've seen good and poor pilots come from both, but I thought he had a valid point

Simple, you interview them, quick flight and pick the best applicant for skill and fit. Could care less where they went to flight school, or if they stayed in a holiday inn.

 

[poadeleted20]

There were 5 instructors at our flight school that recently got on with Republic Airways, none of which had their ATP (had the ATP written).

But I'll bet they have their ATP before they start flying the line via the company training program.

BTW, asking MTSU and ERAU students about each other's programs is about like asking Michigan and Ohio State students about each other's school. The fact is that both MTSU and ERAU are AABI-accredited, and that's a pretty select group of schools -- maybe 10% of all the collegiate aviation programs in the country.

 

[dlsmith]

BTW, asking MTSU and ERAU students about each other's programs is about like asking Michigan and Ohio State students about each other's school.

Although I was talking to a Riddle student (don't tell anybody ) recently, and they were seeing the same thing I am. As soon as instructors meet the R-ATP minimums, they're off to a regional. It could be argued all day about how different applicants would compare in an interview and the pros and cons of a university program, but my only point is that I'm seeing the R-ATP guys getting hired the moment they are legally able to be, whatever the reason.

 

[jordane93]

But I'll bet they have their ATP before they start flying the line via the company training program.

Yep. They got their ATP along with the type rating. A few of them got R-ATP because they didn't have the required PIC x country time

 

[dlsmith]

Worth saying i know of at least a half dozen guys flying the line on a R-ATP

 

[TheTraveler]

...M-@#*!%$ and Ohio State...

Really? You had to use those two in the same sentence? And you had to put the M first? AND, this week of all weeks?

Damn. Just...damn.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwv3JAWCoQ

 

[ClimbnSink]

Harvard beat Yale all is right with college football. People caring about other college football is silly.

 

[LDJones]

Ahh the impending pilot shortage

It's still just a poker game though, and a real ATP and high hours always beats a jr ATP and low hours.

The better jobs will get the better applicants, the lesser airlines will take whoever they can get.

You seem to forget that the vast majority of pilots flying today got their first airline job without an ATP. Even a restricted ATP has more hours than several of my friend had when they got hired.

 

[poadeleted20]

Really? You had to use those two in the same sentence?

Yes, in this case, to make the point, I did.

And you had to put the M first?

Of course -- that is where I went to school.

AND, this week of all weeks?

It's a game.

Ron Levy, Michigan '73Eng

Oh, mother and dad pay all the bills
And we have all the fun
In the friendly rivalry of college life
HOORAY!
("I Want To Go Back to Michigan", Author unknown)
(Not to be confused with the 1914 Irving Berlin song of the same name)

 

[poadeleted20]

You seem to forget that the vast majority of pilots flying today got their first airline job without an ATP. Even a restricted ATP has more hours than several of my friend had when they got hired.

Heck, there was one pilot for Eastern Airlines who got the job with only a PPL -- and was flying as a captain for years before anyone realized he'd never gotten either CP or ATP.

 

[TheTraveler]

Yes, in this case, to make the point, I did.

Of course -- that is where I went to school.

It's a game.

Ron Levy, Michigan '73Eng

Oh, mother and dad pay all the bills
And we have all the fun
In the friendly rivalry of college life
HOORAY!
("I Want To Go Back to Michigan", Author unknown)
(Not to be confused with the 1914 Irving Berlin song of the same name)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0_EpF5SyY

 

[tlglenn]

Right now, I think the biggest benefit of the R-ATP is for those who took the ATP written back in July and are able to get to 1000/1250 hours, but not 1500, by July 2016.

 

[LDJones]

Heck, there was one pilot for Eastern Airlines who got the job with only a PPL -- and was flying as a captain for years before anyone realized he'd never gotten either CP or ATP.

I recently flew with a senior Delta captain who got paired up with a 19 yr old, 300 hr. CP during some recurrent training. He said he was the best first officer he'd ever flown with in his career. Smart as a whip and the best stick he'd ever met. He said he later asked for the same kid by name for a later checkride because he knew the kid wouldn't screw anything up.

He said he was disappointed when he heard the kid quit to go to medical school, but couldn't blame him because he's now making several times the captain's salary.

 

[James331]

I recently flew with a senior Delta captain who got paired up with a 19 yr old, 300 hr. CP during some recurrent training. He said he was the best first officer he'd ever flown with in his career. Smart as a whip and the best stick he'd ever met. He said he later asked for the same kid by name for a later checkride because he knew the kid wouldn't screw anything up.

He said he was disappointed when he heard the kid quit to go to medical school, but couldn't blame him because he's now making several times the captain's salary.

How long ago was it between rides?!

If that kid just went to med school, it'll be a LOOOONG time before he's making more than a major airline capt, especially when you figure to student loans and interest, etc in.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Excellent. So how much time does it take to equal superior human talent? The TT discussions never address that...

I recently flew with a senior Delta captain who got paired up with a 19 yr old, 300 hr. CP during some recurrent training. He said he was the best first officer he'd ever flown with in his career. Smart as a whip and the best stick he'd ever met. He said he later asked for the same kid by name for a later checkride because he knew the kid wouldn't screw anything up.

He said he was disappointed when he heard the kid quit to go to medical school, but couldn't blame him because he's now making several times the captain's salary.