Extra airspeed on final for safety (on 5000 ft rnwy)

I flew our C-172 at 60 knots on final and started slowing below that when the runway was made. It worked great for me. I have always felt that the airplane deserves to be flown in a way that minimizes wear and tear. This is especially important to me when I have to pay all the repair bills!

Our C-150 that we have now does great on base and final below 60 kts. I like to fly a high, close pattern but that doesn't mean I am coming in fast. Treat the airplane with the respect it deserves is my mantra.
 
Only based on our 6500 foot runway.

We lost a warrior to an overrun on a 3000 foot rwy (triple W) 3 weeks ago on a nice calm day. So its definitely not safe in that situation

When SEL pilots tell me they won't land on anything less than 3000' of pavement, I shake my head and wonder what will happen should the fan quit.


If you want a demonstration of the pervasiveness of landing long, spend a VFR Saturday afternoon at an airport diner.
 
Thank you Kim. When I've looked thru it before, I have actually enjoyed reading it, truth be told, but a lot of it sails over my head. It seems like things are beginning to click more for me now though-- hopefully that keeps up. My flight school sells copies of them, I think I'll get one.

If you have a scanner at home the school should just either give you a PDF free, paper copy for <$5 or lend you one to scan. There is no copyright issue as I have heard claimed, in fact, it's the other way around. Giving away copies from the operator to pilots of the specified equipment is completely supported as 'fair use'; selling it on the other hand becomes questionable without contract and royalties.
 
When SEL pilots tell me they won't land on anything less than 3000' of pavement, I shake my head and wonder what will happen should the fan quit.


If you want a demonstration of the pervasiveness of landing long, spend a VFR Saturday afternoon at an airport diner.

No kidding, any certified SE airplane is going to come in below 65kts at gross weight. There are very few SE GA certified aircraft that won't operate safely off of 1200', and this in the hands of a competent student.
 
All true, though I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this isn't a function of currency.
 
No kidding, any certified SE airplane is going to come in below 65kts at gross weight.[...]
Probably true for a trainer, but not quite universal. The Pilatus PC-12 has a waiver that allowed it to be certified with a 65KT stall speed (normally the stall speed for a certificated single engine airplane is limited to 61KT at gross). Note that even something something that is certificated at 61KT wouldn't do well coming in that slow. As I said, though, I'm not aware of any trainers that stall that fast, and even a 61KT Vs0 would still be only 74KT over the fence.
 
There are very few SE GA certified aircraft that won't operate safely off of 1200', and this in the hands of a competent student.

My instructor made that perfectly clear to me.
 
Yes. As my primary training CFI said it (and we flew both the 152 and the 172 in my primary training but mostly the 152):

"You wear the 152 and the 172 wears YOU."
Yes! Exactly my experience! I loved wearing the 152!
 
Since I know Tracy is in New England I'd recommend doing this at Pease - KPSM. 11,000 feet of runway will give you plenty of time to hold that 2 feet above the runway!
Yes, KPSM would be an excellent spot to do this!

I tried this practice once before.... I had trouble keeping it off the ground, the tires kept touching down, but keeping them off the ground is the point? To get that sight picture/feel?
 
My instructor made that perfectly clear to me.

My new place has a rental agreement that I read carefully. It won't allow me to land anywhere unpaved less than 2400 feet. Which is funny since we have a TINY airport less than 5-10 minutes away (by air) that is only 2480 (and only 30 or 40 wide). I asked and they said this agreement was designed with that in mind. That is the smallest type they want anyone landing on.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/0Q9
 
There are very few SE GA certified aircraft that won't operate safely off of 1200', and this in the hands of a competent student.
I think you are assuming a cold day near a coast. Flying out of my home base in the summer the DA is above known values for Arrow, in the "do not extrapolate" area. The book value for a ground run with a test pilot touches 1800 ft, and I'm not a test pilot. This is why we have a 13,000 ft runway. And Albuquerque is not anywhere near the highest airport around. I was a couple of times to Angel Fire, and one time had to climb out over the lake before turning back.

I heard a few other airplanes were also easy to land into a spot whence they could not fly out. I think Tiger is like this.
 
Extra airspeed on a 5000' runway? why not, ya got lots of room to float. on a 1000' runway, ya might want to be careful.

As Renjamin says, get it down on the first 1/3 of the runway or go around. The airplane will land when it runs out of kinetic energy and not before.

Bob Gardner
 
Because it's sloppy and causes you to spend more time closer to the runway which invites more time for something to go wrong.

My instructor (5 years ago) would have me approach as slow as possible after practicing stalls etc. during the same lesson. Then at about 35 hours, he would pick the nastiest 20+ kt direct cross wind days and have me approach fast and hold it just over the runway in a slip the entire length. Had only one approach post PPL that the crosswind exceeded what the plane would handle to land, so I went to another drome and sat it out a bit. In my area, 15 kt direct is pretty common. For me and my Tiger I've learned 30 kt direct is about my limit (not coss angling the runway or anything special ... I know Ron Levy has gone higher, but I choose not to).
 
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BTW, apropos extra speed, this lady likely carried a bit of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCF55aDxXos
I flew that airplane to the same runway a little later in the afternoon for my first time in a Cessna. Followed book suggestion of 70 mph for good results.
 
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Yes! Exactly my experience! I loved wearing the 152!

A Midget Mustang is wearing an airplane. A 152 is what my Aussie friend Janet referred to as being "in a biscuit tin in a tumble dry".
 
My instructor (5 years ago) would have me approach as slow as possible after practicing stalls etc. during the same lesson. Then at about 35 hours, he would pick the nastiest 20+ kt direct cross wind days and have me approach fast and hold it just over the runway in a slip the entire length. Had only one approach post PPL that the crosswind exceeded what the plane would handle to land, so I went to another drome and sat it out a bit. In my area, 15 kt direct is pretty common. For me and my Tiger I've learned 30 kt direct is about my limit (not coss angling the runway or anything special ... I know Ron Levy has gone higher, but I choose not to).

Flying a few inches off the length of the runway on purpose is a great drill. Where it causes trouble is when the pilot starts getting impatient with the rate of energy reduction and starts to seek the runway. That's what sets up the porpoise and bounce. If you're hot over the runway, it's completely safe to throw in some slip to burn off some speed, then line back up once you dumped enough energy to be able to land. most of the time though if you are a bit more delicate with the controls and patient with your speed reduction, a 4500' runway will safely land most SE GA planes (I'll exclude HP turbine craft from this conversation even though a PC-12 would likely make it, but I include HP SE recip such as a Bonanza, Cherokee 6, 210...) floating out of a 20kt overspeed in a dead wind condition. The person in that video was smoking hot, but still had a buttload of runway left if they just would have had patience to let it bleed.
 
Sometimes on really long runways, I'll land long on purpose to reduce taxi times.
But that can go the other way, too. Very often on our long runway (7500') I land short on purpose to reduce my taxi time.

See 23L at KYIP - if there's a good head wind I can sometimes make the turn off on G (the white taxiway in the Google Earth link attached - 900') or, at worst, make a 180 a few hundred feet further down. This keeps me in practice for short fields even with the long runway and it can reduce my taxi distance (along with reducing the Hobbs time) by 1-1.5 miles depending on how you measure it! I think it takes some of the controllers by surprise. On one windy day I asked if Golf was clear so I could turn off there (it's used a lot for take-off) and the controller said, "If you can make it, you can have it." It was obvious he didn't think I'd make it.
 

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BTW, apropos extra speed, this lady likely carried a bit of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCF55aDxXos
I flew that airplane to the same runway a little later in the afternoon for my first time in a Cessna. Followed book suggestion of 70 mph for good results.

If you're going to use the 'plop it on' crosswind management system (it works and is basically what the airlines do) you have to be dead on accurate on your ref speed otherwise you climb.
 
When SEL pilots tell me they won't land on anything less than 3000' of pavement

They probably have never been to less than a 3000 foot runway.
Read rental agreements. 5000-6000 feet minimum is what I've seen. Land on less and and if they find out, they'll skin you or you'll never rent from them again.

I shake my head and wonder what will happen should the fan quit.

After 5-10 years of coming in at 65kts it will have likely crept up to 70kts. Anything less than 65kts will be super scary because they never go there. When the engine quits the pilot will do what is ingrained. Then they cross the last tree (high) and try to put it in the 1500 foot clearing at 65kts and wrap themselves around the 50kts properly flown easily missed forest.
 
Thank you Kim. When I've looked thru it before, I have actually enjoyed reading it, truth be told, but a lot of it sails over my head. It seems like things are beginning to click more for me now though-- hopefully that keeps up. My flight school sells copies of them, I think I'll get one.

When reading the POH, don't get caught in the CAS/IAS trap. Some POHs show stall speed as CAS, and if you try to use that number using your airspeed indicator it could get dicey.

My 172P book shows both...thanks, Cessna!

Bob Gardner
 
If landing long for convenience at a towered airport, I tell the tower because they kind of expect me to land at the normal spot and may plan their ground control operations for me and others with that assumption in mind.
 
If landing long for convenience at a towered airport, I tell the tower because they kind of expect me to land at the normal spot and may plan their ground control operations for me and others with that assumption in mind.

Good advice. I usually ask, "Tower, 2SE would like to land long and exit at foxtrot for the west ramp".
 
Sometimes on really long runways, I'll land long on purpose to reduce taxi times.
Deliberately landing long for expediency is fine (assuming the runway is long enough) but you shouldn't do that by increasing your approach speed. The correct way is to simply change your aiming point and use the same speeds you normally would. There are times when a faster than normal approach speed is appropriate such as when attempting to blend in with faster (e.g. jet) traffic on the same runway but even then it's more effective to remove as much of the excess speed prior to reaching your aim point, otherwise the time you gained on approach is squandered while you float halfway down the runway.
 
I've never seen a minimum runway length stipulated though I have seen 'paved' stipulated. I think it would be awesomely foolish to place a 6000' restriction on a 172 rental agreement. You end up with liability if they have to go to a 6000' runway and it goes wrong. The key to minimizing operational liability in a rental situation is let other people set all the standards.
 
I've never seen a minimum runway length stipulated though I have seen 'paved' stipulated. I think it would be awesomely foolish to place a 6000' restriction on a 172 rental agreement. You end up with liability if they have to go to a 6000' runway and it goes wrong. The key to minimizing operational liability in a rental situation is let other people set all the standards.

The 6000 ft restriction was in colorado, no clue why other than don't land on shorter or we will skin you alive for it. A 172 can fly in and out of a 1500 ft runway all day and night long very safely. I think it's crazy and most likely due to insurance restrictions more than anything...it wouldn't surprise me if it is due to the faster and faster approach speeds nowadays.
I've also seen night flight prohibited without an instrument rating. WTF? Flying in clouds is one thing, flying at night is entirely another.
 
Yeah but dodging clouds at night is difficult. I was coming back into BAZ one moonless night (right after I got my IR), and the AWOS was reporting 3200 'scattered and 4200' broken. I was at 2500' so I thought I was in the clear, but as I got closer I could see the lights in San Antonio reflecting off the bottom of the clouds. I called up SAT approach and asked for a pop-up IFR for the RNAV 17 into BAZ. They cleared me and about a minute afterwards I couldn't see anymore lights (except for the red flashing beacon and nav lights) and I knew I was in IMC. Broke out at 1100 AGL - 3200' scattered my ass.
 
The 6000 ft restriction was in colorado, no clue why other than don't land on shorter or we will skin you alive for it. A 172 can fly in and out of a 1500 ft runway all day and night long very safely.

At high DA (since you mentioned Colorado), a Skyhawk will use up all of that 1500' on a summer day up here at max gross, and more.

Zero wind, sea level, 59F is just under 900 feet for a spry new airplane making perfect power.

Move up to 7500' DA at 57F and that number doubles.

It's killed more than one person up here. It's surprised thousands more as they watch the runway go by and the Airspeed indicator slowly creep up (as compared to what they're used to seeing it do) to flying speed.

6000' is a toolong, but there are summer days up here when 3000' will just barely be enough if there's obstacles of any sort. Add hamfisted pilot and ...
 
I've never seen a minimum runway length stipulated though I have seen 'paved' stipulated.

I have. Not 6000', but something more along the lines of 2500'. IIRC, there was an "except in an emergency" clause. The renting company can put whatever limitations they want - it's up to the renter to determine whether that's acceptable.
 
6000' is a toolong, but there are summer days up here when 3000' will just barely be enough if there's obstacles of any sort. Add hamfisted pilot and ...


That's why you don't see too many runways under 5K feet there. I think Platte Valley (18V) came the closest for one I would regularly fly into (and out of). I remember one summer day where temps where over 100F, and I did use a good bit of that runway, and then had to do a step climb to keep my CHT's down, but that was before I had my engine baffles re-done. It is a different type of flying.
 
Yep, 60-65. The people with problems with them I always find coming over the fence at 80+.

That's OK. The chain link fence at the airport boundary will stop 'em every time! Isn't that the reason why it's there?
 
And... if you ever get a chance to step up to the 182, 70 is way way WAY too fast.

No it's not, at least for those of us not lucky enough to have the R/STOL mod like you do - I fly final at 80 mph (69 knots) in the 182 at gross. Pull the power to idle at the beginning of the roundout and with 40 degrees of flaps out she slows down just about perfectly.
 
The 6000 ft restriction was in colorado, no clue why other than don't land on shorter or we will skin you alive for it. A 172 can fly in and out of a 1500 ft runway all day and night long very safely.

Not necessarily, especially in Colorado. I had a 2,000-foot ground roll on takeoff in the 182 at around 400 pounds under gross in that state once...

I've also seen night flight prohibited without an instrument rating. WTF? Flying in clouds is one thing, flying at night is entirely another.

Most countries prohibit night VFR. I'm glad the US does not, but there are a lot of things about night flying that can be helped by understanding the whys and hows of the IFR system. Plus, it's hard to see clouds at night to stay out of them, and CFIT is a distinct possibility in MANY places - Not just "in the mountains," there are several airports here in Wisconsin where it would be advisable to use instrument procedures at night. Hell, that sort of thing killed a local EMS chopper crew a few years ago.
 
Flying over water or unpopulated terrain at night might as well be IFR, especially if there's cloud cover.
 
Night can be bright VFR with 100 miles of vis or it can be the definition of black, the absence of all light, it all depends. That's one of the key factors of why people own, no silly rules.
 
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