jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I've seen people fly 85 knots all the way down to the runway then float and float and float and float to bleed it off (in a 172).
Extra airspeed on final for safety (on 5000 ft rnwy)
- Thread starter Tracey
- Start date
Well, that's good to know-- at least I wasn't at the super upper end of "too fast." (And I don't plan to be there again!).
TMetzinger
Final Approach
For an SP which is heavier than an N model, 70 is ok for the start if the final approach but you want to be slower as you ease into the flare.
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
Right, all it does is extends the time of interfacing with the ground increasing the risks.
Yes, I do. I have most definitely learned that.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Those people don't get my flight review sticker until they fix it. Amazingly enough almost every person I've seen with this issue responds well to feedback.
Well, it's something that's relatively simple to fix (at least I think so, I will let you know how I do), and the end result is a good one-- landing the plane (not floating... floating... floating....).
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
I'm with the Old Geek, probably because I, too, am old. After nearly 10,000 hours in the cockpit, including a lot of time as an instructor, it seems to me that Goldilocks was right -- not to hot, not too cold, but just right works best.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Yes. As my primary training CFI said it (and we flew both the 152 and the 172 in my primary training but mostly the 152):
"You wear the 152 and the 172 wears YOU."
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
Try these numbers :
http://www.westernshoreaviation.com/Cessna 172 Checkout.pdf
1.2 over stall
Read your POH they vary from 30 degree flaps to 40 degree flaps.
http://www.westernshoreaviation.com/Cessna 172 Checkout.pdf
1.2 over stall
Read your POH they vary from 30 degree flaps to 40 degree flaps.
zaitcev
En-Route
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2010
- Messages
- 3,257
- Display Name
Display name:
Pete Zaitcev
I floated all the time at 70 hours. But then little by little it disappeared. In exchange I started to come closer to hard landings, as I became a more uppity pilot. I do not recall touching down hard when training. But then one time I was flying the Arrow (building time with CFI for insurance), going down 100-90-80 and woooops -- I got it just a little too slow and the bottom fell out, nose dropped. If I were a few inches higher, I would've wheelbarrowed it in. After that I quit worrying about full-stall landings and just started doing what was comfortable.
N2124v
Line Up and Wait
Try to land a mooney carrying extra speed. That will teach you to fly by the numbers.
gprellwitz
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2005
- Messages
- 12,762
- Location
- Romeoville, IL
- Display Name
Display name:
Grant Prellwitz
She's in an SP, and I dont think they changed the flap configuration within that model designation. Ergo, the link you provided has the right model designation and, presumably, the correct numbers.
1.2 Vs0 would be 48KT at gross weight.
Clark1961
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 17,737
- Display Name
Display name:
Display name:
Hmmm, lot's of folks saying scurry to the POH and work from there. I've got a little different perspective. Go out and stall the aircraft and work from that speed to get final (1.3 Vso) and over-the-fence (1.2 to 1.1Vso) speeds.
While the Cessna POH is generally good, not all aircraft will have good POH numbers. I learned this the hard way flying LSAs. I had a tough time landing the Gobosh until I said the heck with the book and used the observed stall speed.
Of course you only want to take this approach when solo or with an instructor but it'll get you in the right ballpark quickly.
On to other topics, don't add speed or reduce flaps just because of cross winds. The aircraft flys the same even if slipping. Only add half the gust factor. Okay, I'll cheat a little on gust factor if it's much greater than 10 knots. Probably shouldn't be flying in those conditions but sometimes there you are and I don't want a nose drop when 10 feet above the runway. Heard of it happening and it doesn't sound like fun.
Oh, and congrats on the solo. Regardless of what else may happen in life, you are a pilot.
While the Cessna POH is generally good, not all aircraft will have good POH numbers. I learned this the hard way flying LSAs. I had a tough time landing the Gobosh until I said the heck with the book and used the observed stall speed.
Of course you only want to take this approach when solo or with an instructor but it'll get you in the right ballpark quickly.
On to other topics, don't add speed or reduce flaps just because of cross winds. The aircraft flys the same even if slipping. Only add half the gust factor. Okay, I'll cheat a little on gust factor if it's much greater than 10 knots. Probably shouldn't be flying in those conditions but sometimes there you are and I don't want a nose drop when 10 feet above the runway. Heard of it happening and it doesn't sound like fun.
Oh, and congrats on the solo. Regardless of what else may happen in life, you are a pilot.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Great point. I was working from the assumptions :
a) Some students aren't signed off to head out to the practice area on their own, so getting some slow flight time without the Instructor on board for the right weight might not be possible for all students.
b) I remember as a student sometimes being "lazy" or just not thinking about looking up stuff in the POH at times. A reminder that the answers (or very close to the right numbers) are right there if you dig 'em out, is always appropriate...
So agreed... if you can go learn where that EXACT airplane stalls, you're way ahead of the game... but if you can't... don't forget all the POH "fun"... IAS vs CAS, speed changes as the load changes, etc etc etc... all in the POH!
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Reading the POH may be boring, but you can do it in one day and then not fumble around looking stuff up inside it in the future. And you just might learn something that will help you on your very next lesson!
Yep, 60-65. The people with problems with them I always find coming over the fence at 80+.
Thank you Kim. When I've looked thru it before, I have actually enjoyed reading it, truth be told, but a lot of it sails over my head. It seems like things are beginning to click more for me now though-- hopefully that keeps up. My flight school sells copies of them, I think I'll get one.
dmccormack
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- May 11, 2007
- Messages
- 10,945
- Location
- Lancaster County, Pennsylvania
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Mc
I don't have a POH. They weren't provided in 1940.
I guess the designers expected pilots to actually fly the airplane in slow flight and figure out the best approach attitude to get the best results.
Speedometers and pedometers and magic wands are nice, but supplementary.
I guess the designers expected pilots to actually fly the airplane in slow flight and figure out the best approach attitude to get the best results.
Speedometers and pedometers and magic wands are nice, but supplementary.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Congrats to the OP for safely landing an airplane. You can pretty safely ignore most of these guys and keep doing what works for you. Just remember, you'll have to do short field landings eventually, and you will need to slow down at that point.
Hey, I always come in fairly high. My airplane doesn't glide for beans, and I'd like to make the runway if the fan quits. I don't see the big deal so long as your approach is stabilized. You'll figure it out in the end.
Again congrats. Flying an airplane solo is a pretty big achievement in and of itself.
Hey, I always come in fairly high. My airplane doesn't glide for beans, and I'd like to make the runway if the fan quits. I don't see the big deal so long as your approach is stabilized. You'll figure it out in the end.
Again congrats. Flying an airplane solo is a pretty big achievement in and of itself.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
Or a Grumman. You will float, float, float, and if you try to force it down you will porpoise. If you don't add power, and go around at the first sign of that you are asking for a prop strike, just like a Mooney.
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2007
- Messages
- 3,183
- Display Name
Display name:
Bob Gardner
Good landings are slow landings. It is a question of energy management: On final, you have potential energy due to your elevation and kinetic energy due to your airspeed (and KE veries as the square of the airspeed, so a small change has a large effect). Your goal is to have minimum total energy when you level off in the landing process. By that time, potential energy is close to zero, so airspeed is the only element you can control. Do not be afraid of the low-speed end of the airspeed indicator...if you maintain Vso x 1.3 on final and Vso x 1.2 over the threshold you still have a cushion over the power-off stall speed.
I go along with adjusting speed to counteract gusts, but extra airspeed for any other reason? Forget it.
Bob Gardner
I go along with adjusting speed to counteract gusts, but extra airspeed for any other reason? Forget it.
Bob Gardner
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Miss Piggy is a '48 model so I do have a POH, in fact the original. That said, it doesn't give much information as is being discussed in this thread. It's a matter of taking what little info they give and then learning how to deal with it.
Having a CFI that has you fly with the instruments covered helps about as much as anything.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Don't confuse coming in fast with making a tighter, steeper pattern. Not accusing you of this, but just hoping to make sure the OP does not think staying high and carrying a bunch of speed is the proper way to fly a pattern that keeps you in gliding range of the runway.
I shed a tear when I see pilots flying our club's 172SP's over the threshold at 70 knots and 100 AGL on a calm day and literally touch down 3000 feet down our 6500 foot runway. Sure its safe, but poor airmanship. One of our instructors teaches this "extra speed for safety buffer" bologna and its been the subject of many rants from my instructor.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I think that a solo student who puts his airplane down without damaged is doing just fine, and will get the airspeed thing down when he starts doing short field landings.
In my aircraft, flying a high final does keep me in gliding range of the airport. I know because I've tested it. Again, so long as the approach is stabilized and I can land short, it's all good. I think it is loads easier to dissipate energy than make it when the fan quits. That energy might be what kills you on the ground, but it also keeps you in the air when you need it.
dell30rb
Final Approach
The best way I can describe this to a new pilot is that airplanes are really awkward at high speeds on their wheels.. I mean look at them, its got small tires and its a freakin tricycle with a high center of gravity!
The slower you land, the better its going to handle when it touches down. If you are carrying too much speed lots of bad things can happen.
Why waste time training to half standard? True that a solo landing that does no damage is just fine, it should not be the standard the student is practicing to.
dell30rb
Final Approach
While I agree that a student does not need to be making nice short field landings before solo, they at least need to demonstrate airspeed control in a normal stabilized approach and landing. If they can consistently hold 65 knots on final, flare and touchdown mains first within the first 1500 feet i'd call that good.
But someone who consistently comes in high and fast for fear of stalling the airplane or whatever is a high risk for a porpoise or overrun, probably the most common student pilot mistakes.
Yeah, that's what I don't want to get in the habit of. (Nice grammar, I know). I fear I did that on all 3 landings. So that's something I really want to work on. (Oh, another nice sentence! -2!).
Yeah, I nearly shed a tear myself. Not something I'm proud of. Well, putting the plane down without an instructor in it, I was proud of that, but I wanted it to look better.
And I agree with Henning (well, all of you really), I really want to do it right and get the muscle memory of that.
This is what I need to practice.
fgcason
En-Route
Did you look at the book numbers for landing? They are almost identical. And there's no reason to airspeed to either when the weight of the instructor is removed and it's landing slower.
Sure it's safe? Based on what? Why is being setup to float half a mile down a runway before it will land considered safe nowadays?
Even if you come in at redline kts in a 172 (faster is always safer right), look at the airspeed when it finally does start to flare and land on it's own. Why not be at that airspeed as the plane comes across the (approach) end of the runway in the first place?
I rented from a place that required 6000x100 runways for the STOL 172 for safety reasons. During the checkout I wasn't allowed to get below 65kts on short final - recommend 70kts absolute minimum at the high altitude airports in Colorado. Seriously, the guy freaked out when I said "slowing to 55 then to 50 over the fence" when turning final. (I was at 60 on base and he didn't like that at all when he realized I was already too slow) When I went around and fixed the too slow thing, on the 10,000ft runway I was starting to think about going around because the runway was too short to land on at cruise speed over the touchdown stripes.
It's a STOL kit on an ancient 172. It's totally flyable at 45kts close to the ground in total safety. It can land on the numbers and come to a stop almost immediately. Put a slight headwind on it and it'll stop on the actual numbers easily. Heck, I grew up flying the same era plane without the super floater STOL kit at 50kts all the time on final because that's what all the instructors at the time were teaching. I even did it on my checkride and the DE was all happy with it.
+1
Believe it or not, the plane will continue flying even when you can feel each wing trying to stall in little sections. (Forget the airspeed indicator, it will be bouncing all over the place at the time but the plane will keep flying)
whifferdill
Line Up and Wait
I think it's a sad sight as well...and too common out there. But don't get me started...
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Because it's sloppy and causes you to spend more time closer to the runway which invites more time for something to go wrong.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
It's a fine exercise to do an approach to landing, and then NOT land, by adding the minimum amount of power to prevent touchdown while you fly over at 2 feet or so. Do this a few times with a CFI and you'll get a good feel for what the landing attitude looks like, and how to manuever the airplane by the "ahead and to the left" view you have since you can't see over the nose.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Only based on our 6500 foot runway.
We lost a warrior to an overrun on a 3000 foot rwy (triple W) 3 weeks ago on a nice calm day. So its definitely not safe in that situation
Attachments
Last edited:
dell30rb
Final Approach
You'll get the hang of it!
spinfire
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2011
- Messages
- 413
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan
Since I know Tracy is in New England I'd recommend doing this at Pease - KPSM. 11,000 feet of runway will give you plenty of time to hold that 2 feet above the runway!
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
If you PM me your email address, I can send you one (PDF format). You can then compare it to the one at your flight school, photo copy the pages that are "different" but for the most part it may be the same and save you money. I think I have a 1980 170N POH I found online. You can google yours and might find what you need for free, or try eBay or Craigslist.