Explaining stalls & slow flight to student

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Richard, Sep 11, 2006.

  1. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    The FAA uses the term "raises" when describing how loss of lift can occur when abruptly raising the flaps. With all this talk about being relatable to students and taking care to conjure the proper mental image, I think a better term would be "retracting" the flaps.

    Is it just me being too perfectionist oriented? That is, does it really matter? If not, what about when engaging in deeper discussions? EX: downwash off the tail surfaces.

    Right now I'm not directly concerned with the student, my concern is demonstrating an understanding which contains as little errors as possible. So far, I've gotten good evaluations of my presentations, but I know I can do better.
     
  2. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    raises vs. lowers isnt so bad, up vs down is the real confusing one. I like retracted and extended, no doubt what you are talking about
     
  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In this case, whichever terms have the effect of properly communcating the concept to the student are the right ones.
     
  4. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    "...dump in all the flaps!..."
    "...get rid of those flaps!..."
     
  5. Len Lanetti

    Len Lanetti Cleared for Takeoff

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    I hate to disagree but I do. Personally, I think clear and concise instructions are better than wordy instructions that might be misunderstood due to cockpit noise or distraction. For me, Extend Flaps - Retract Flaps, Lower Gear - Raise Gear would seam to be more easily understood.

    IIRC there was an accident attributed to the flying pilot issuing the command "Takeoff power!". His intent was that the non flying pilot set maximum allowable thrust. The non flying pilot heard "take off power", thinking he heard the flying pilot request less thrust.

    Communication is tricky. Well established phrases where everyone knows the percise meaning and what action to take are best.

    WRT Retract Flaps or Raise Flaps - I could probably go either way but once a preference is established I'd stick with it.

    Len
     
  6. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    I was kinda joking, but not entirely.
    Although those phases seem to be well established (of course technically, avslang) and have never been observed by me to cause problems in many thousands of TO/LDGs with multiple operators. I'm never surprised if a PIC uses them, they're that common and well understood.

    The MTOP example you give smacks more of incomplete preflight cockpit briefing and PIC incompetency to me, as MTOP is a book term if I ever saw one. I definately see your point though and certainly it is very good to use standard, well defined terms to maximize CRM.
     
  7. woodstock

    woodstock Final Approach

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    how about full power versus pull power. that was an early one I learned - my new CFI learned it too.
     
  8. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter

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    It is? :confused:
     
  9. Len Lanetti

    Len Lanetti Cleared for Takeoff

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    Personally, I don't like that one at all! My reason would be...say that, due to bad mic, intercom connection or other reason, the instruction is somewhat garbled..."full" and "pull" sound too similar and could be easily confused. If that particular confusion occurs at the wrong moment it could create an issue. Remember accidents are typically a chain of events.

    To my way of thinking full and pull present the same problem as in the "takeoff power" versus "take off power" example in my previous post. The accident I remember reading about occured as the jet aircraft was approaching to land. The flying pilot wanted power to go around and the non flying pilot, reacting to the mis communicated instruction, reduced power to idle. Since the aircraft was a jet even immediate application of maximum thrust couldn't save the day as jet engines take time to "spool up" and generate thrust.

    I'm sure you can imagine that a similar mis understanding could occur if the person reacting to the instruction thought they heard pull instead full. In the average piston engine single on the average flight there would probably be plenty of time for the pilot issuing the instruction to simply jam the throttle home but why tempt fate.

    Len
     
  10. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    Elizabeth,
    Its my understanding and experience that many a confusion has been caused with the up vs. down statement. Some students wonder if you mean pull the handle up (flaps down) or put the flaps up (handle down). Obviously this issue is usually only found in pipers and other aircraft with a flap handle that you actually pull instead of the type found in the cessnas with electric flaps.
     
  11. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter

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    I guess I can see how up and down might be confusing in this situation. However, I can't even picture what the flap control looks like on a Piper. I know I have some time in them but CRS. I was mostly a high-winger. :)

    PS: I'm not Elizabeth. But I'm flattered.
     
  12. Len Lanetti

    Len Lanetti Cleared for Takeoff

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    For PA28s, the Cherokee Six, Lance, Saratoga and Seneca it is a lever, often called a Johnson bar, about two feet long on the floor between the front seats...you pull the lever up to make the flaps go down...unless, of course, you are inverted...in which case you probably don't have to worry about the flaps too much.

    Len
     
  13. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    This is one of the funniest threads in a long time. You guys are cracking me up, I find it hard to believe any of you ever had students who, you know, actually finished the course...and in one piece.

    Keep it going
     
  14. tonycondon

    tonycondon Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)

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    ug, sorry mari....

    as tommy boy would say, "im retarded"
     
  15. Dave Krall CFII

    Dave Krall CFII Final Approach

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    Re: Level Off

    It's "dump IN ALL the flaps". No wonder he had problems. Besides that, flight students can do anything at any time (no matter what the instructions were) -it sounds like the CFI was slow reacting.

    The best overall of course are, simply:
    Extend flaps
    retract flaps
     
  16. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Hmmm-

    I would have thought "dump the flaps" meant retract them. Good thing my instructors haven't used the term.

    I guess I learned something today.
     
  17. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Min/Reduce/Add/Max -

    Works for throttle and flaps.
     
  18. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    I don't think I'd recommend anyone using that term for just that reason -- too easy to misinterpret. I'm sure y'all know that story about the airline captain who, when they didn't break out at mins, said, "Takeoff power!" for the go-around. The co-pilot, thinking the captain was going to land, took off power.:eek:
     
  19. AuntPeggy

    AuntPeggy Final Approach

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    Just a suggestion, as a perennial student -
    When spoken calmly, as a reminder, these should be sufficient. It lets the student decide.
    "Rudder"
    "Flaps"
    "Throttle"

    When spoken urgently, how about:
    "More power"
    "Less flaps"
    "More left rudder"
     
  20. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    Must of had my instructor. There was a time I thought those were the only words he knew. And do you ALWAYS have to yell?
     
  21. Auburn_CFI

    Auburn_CFI Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Exactly why our standard call is "GO-AROUND, MAX POWER, FLAPS 9". Straight foward and reminds you what order to perform required actions. 1. Hit toga buttons. 2. Advance thrust levers to max power setting. 3. Retract flaps to 9. ... Of course, we have a few calls after establishing positive rate, but with the engines up to full power instead of idle positive rate is somewhat easier to attain.
     
  22. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don't you mean sustain?:D
     
  23. jdwatson

    jdwatson Line Up and Wait

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    Attain, sustain... subtle difference with so much hardware. LOL... just kidding.