Expired database?

StinkBug

StinkBug

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Dallas
I'm betting I already know the answer to this one, but I thought I'd ask. I'm part way through my IR training and my plane came with a 430W installed when I bought it. The database was expired when I bought the plane, but all the local approaches look to still be accurate.

Am I going to need to get the database up to date for my checkride? I assume so. Anyone know what Jepp charges for a one time update? They don't seem to list that option, just a phone number to call that's closed at the moment.
 
Instrument Rating PTS under Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test: "GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR) certified and contain the current database."

So...yes
 
You can get a one time update,the yearly plan is cheaper in the long run. I would guess you would need the data base to be up to date. Go on the website,they have options and prices.
 
The web site has prices for a subscription. If you want a one time update they say to just call, and they closed an hour ago.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Instrument Rating PTS under Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Practical Test: "GPS equipment must be instrument flight rules (IFR) certified and contain the current database."

So...yes
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Thanks for confirming my assumption.
 
If you mean I should just remove the 430 for the check ride, that's a novel Idea but since it's also my only nav radio that would render the plane INOP for IFR work. Nice try though :)
 
Dallas,

Going forward, you don't have to have the current database to fly IFR. You simply need to confirm that all data relative to your flight is still current and didn't change in subsequent revisions.

I've never done that though and have a feeling that it's much easier said than done. I just kept mine current when I was still working and flying multiple times a month "in the system." Now I share my subscription so it's never more than one cycle out of date.

I'm flying IFR for the first time in about four years tomorrow.
 
Yeah I knew about the whole legal if verified thing, but figured for a checkride it's probably easier to just point to the date and know that it's all up to date.

Another question, anyone in the san diego area have a card reader I can use? $70 seems a bit steep for a simple USB adapter, but since they dont use a standard SD card they kinda have you over a barrel.
 
EdFred said:
What? No second NAV?
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Nope, One CDI with GS, coupled to the 430 which is also a nav radio. Also have a 496 in the panel for backup, but that's not an IFR certified device.
 
Know anyone else with a 430 or 530?

Just use their update or borrow their card, GPS don't know the difference.

It's sad that your CFI has been sitting his butt in the right seat, watching you test the GPS before every flight and never talked to you about the expired database and what it means for flight and your checkride.
 
I assume he has to get a WAAS/non-WAAS card depending on which his is?
 
Meh. I don't hold it against him. He's been concentrating on teaching me how to fly the plane, not press buttons. We've used the GPS but so far most of the training has been flying headings, tracking radials, constant rate turns, etc. I'm sure it will be brought up when the time comes, but I'm not even halfway to the checkride so it hasn't been important yet.
 
Yup different update for a 430 or 530 vs a 430W or 530W, also the WAAS has a larger capacity card.
 
StinkBug said:
Meh. I don't hold it against him. He's been concentrating on teaching me how to fly the plane, not press buttons. We've used the GPS but so far most of the training has been flying headings, tracking radials, constant rate turns, etc. I'm sure it will be brought up when the time comes, but I'm not even halfway to the checkride so it hasn't been important yet.
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That box will become a HUGE part of your IFR flying, not knowing if it's legit or not is a big deal. It's like not knowing how to preflight a plane till half way through your PPL.

For IFR ops it's part of my preflight, I also fly IFR for a living behind dual 530Ws, if you don't know those boxes like the back of your hand you're in for a world of hurt.

You are at least doing the half deflection test on boot up right?
 
So you think he should be teaching me how to push buttons in the gps before learning to read the 6pack and follow a cdi? I dont disagree that it's all important, but everything cant come on day 1. He chose to start with the most basic instruments found in most every airplane, and I personally like that approach. Learn how to use the bare minimum, and then add on the optional stuff. The plane I did my PPL in had a 430 as well, and we went through basic operation of it months ago and I've continued learning more and more as I've gone. I'm well aware that actual IFR flight with an out of date database isn't kosher, but that's not what I asked about. Thanks for trying to derail though.
 
Whoa, I agree 100% with you, fundamentals first.

That said, you gotta learn your preflight for IFR, even if you can't fully work the thing ok, but he should have covered the initial tests and database stuff with you early on, just like pitot static tests and VOR checks, checking your pitot heat and all that fun stuff.
 
James331 said:
Whoa, I agree 100% with you, fundamentals first.

That said, you gotta learn your preflight for IFR, even if you can't fully work the thing ok, but he should have covered the initial tests and database stuff with you early on, just like pitot static tests and VOR checks, checking your pitot heat and all that fun stuff.
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Yes, we went over how to do the initial halfscale tests and where to check the database way back in primary training, that's how I know it's out of date :p We've also gone over all the IFR preflight checks for the other instruments as well, I just never thought to ask about the GPS since we haven't really been using it for IFR work yet. I'm sure he'll get to it when we start using it, I'm just thinking ahead, more for my pocketbook than anything else. Gotta figure out how much getting everything legit is gonna cost me so I can figure out how many nights I need to spend on the street corner :lol:
 
I'm $500ish a year, full US, Canada, and MX for my 430 and 530...well kinda ;)

You should be shooting RNAVS early on, what's your CFII background?
 
StinkBug said:
Yeah I knew about the whole legal if verified thing, but figured for a checkride it's probably easier to just point to the date and know that it's all up to date.

Another question, anyone in the san diego area have a card reader I can use? $70 seems a bit steep for a simple USB adapter, but since they dont use a standard SD card they kinda have you over a barrel.
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Just a question. Are you getting the rating to use? If so why would you want to borrow a Skybound adapter? You will need it each month for the updates. Speaking of updates, a one time is only good for 28 days and you are right back where you started. I am having a hard time following the logic. You will need at the very least GPS updates, a subscription for plates and charts for the area you plan to fly. If you have a WAAS unit you might want to consider the obstacle updates also. Your outdated stuff MAY be OK for training but, why not just start the subscriptions you will need prior to the check ride? Wouldn't that be cheaper in the long run:dunno:
 
The likelihood of me actually flying IFR around San Diego in the foreseeable future is fairly slim. If I can avoid another few hundred bucks for something I'm not using that's more time I can spend flying. I do love how instead of answering questions everybody has to turn threads into an interrogation on why you're asking and second guessing of a CFI, etc.

The question was if anyone knows how much a one time update is. If you don't then that's fine. I'm asking so I can make a decision, you know, the way adults do, by looking at the options and weighing the pros and cons. Sorry I don't just have endless amounts of money to throw at things without consideration.
 
timwinters said:
Dallas,

Going forward, you don't have to have the current database to fly IFR. You simply need to confirm that all data relative to your flight is still current and didn't change in subsequent revisions.
Click to expand...

Check your AFM supplement...you can probably follow the above for enroute and terminal IFR, but no approaches.
 
David's right -- some GPS's include a statement in the AFMS saying the database must be unexpired for IFR use (especially approaches). This more restrictive language supersedes the looser language in the AIM. You'll have to read the AFMS to be sure. But that's only for after you get the rating -- for the immediate problem, the PTS requires a current database for the IR practical test with no exceptions.
 
Well it seems Jeppesen is fairly prompt with answering emails. Woke up this morning with a reply. If anyone cares, the US one time update is $145, and either West/Central or East/Central is $120. The subscription for 48 states is $425, I'm guessing that's for a year, though they don't say on the web site. Not exactly full of information there.
 
timwinters said:
Dallas,

Going forward, you don't have to have the current database to fly IFR. You simply need to confirm that all data relative to your flight is still current and didn't change in subsequent revisions.

I've never done that though and have a feeling that it's much easier said than done. I just kept mine current when I was still working and flying multiple times a month "in the system." Now I share my subscription so it's never more than one cycle out of date.

I'm flying IFR for the first time in about four years tomorrow.
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MauleSkinner said:
Check your AFM supplement...you can probably follow the above for enroute and terminal IFR, but no approaches.
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Came here to say this. My 430W has the restriction in the documentation. For terminal/en-route, it's all good so long as you verify every point you intend to fly. Approaches are only legal with an updated database, however.
 
StinkBug said:
The likelihood of me actually flying IFR around San Diego in the foreseeable future is fairly slim. If I can avoid another few hundred bucks for something I'm not using that's more time I can spend flying. I do love how instead of answering questions everybody has to turn threads into an interrogation on why you're asking and second guessing of a CFI, etc.

The question was if anyone knows how much a one time update is. If you don't then that's fine. I'm asking so I can make a decision, you know, the way adults do, by looking at the options and weighing the pros and cons. Sorry I don't just have endless amounts of money to throw at things without consideration.
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And I was commenting on the pros and cons. If as you say you will not be using the rating then of course a one time purchase. I was actually trying to save you money. Sorry I ****ed you off. Actually that is not true, I really don't give a d***.
 
wow $145 for a one time ...

seems like I remember last time I checked a couple years ago it was $65.

What really grinds my gears is you must purchase two apparatus to update two cards that look identical. One for the nav and one for the terrain. It's highway robbery without a gun.
 
txflyer said:
wow $145 for a one time ...

seems like I remember last time I checked a couple years ago it was $65.

What really grinds my gears is you must purchase two apparatus to update two cards that look identical. One for the nav and one for the terrain. It's highway robbery without a gun.
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I've never seen anyone bother to update the terrain, mountains don't move and the towers often aren't super accurate anyways.

Best bet for the OP is maybe just find a buddy with the subscription and update for a case of beer.
 
James331 said:
I've never seen anyone bother to update the terrain, mountains don't move and the towers often aren't super accurate anyways.

Best bet for the OP is maybe just find a buddy with the subscription and update for a case of beer.
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Right. I've never updated mine because the gizmo to do it is $150 bucks or something like that..
 
With the one time being so expensive i probably will just go with the subscription but I'm definitely grumbling. I wanna know why jeppeson has no competition. It's ridiculous that we're all essentially required to pay a company money to fly legally and we have no choice who to do business with.
 
StinkBug said:
With the one time being so expensive i probably will just go with the subscription but I'm definitely grumbling. I wanna know why jeppeson has no competition. It's ridiculous that we're all essentially required to pay a company money to fly legally and we have no choice who to do business with.
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You and me both man :yes:

If it were a 700 buck car GPS and garmin charged even $20 for updates people would be in a frenzy.

This is why I don't pay for two subscriptions, makes me feel a little better if I'm at least kinda sticking it to them.

I wish some of the coding folks would take the same govt supplied data Garmin uses and make a open source update resource for aviation GPSs, probably require less skill than writing the code to jailbreak a iphone....


Look at the Americas subscription, the regional only ones are kinda a rip when you look at the price difference for all of the US, Canada, Mexico etc.
 
StinkBug said:
With the one time being so expensive i probably will just go with the subscription but I'm definitely grumbling. I wanna know why jeppeson has no competition. It's ridiculous that we're all essentially required to pay a company money to fly legally and we have no choice who to do business with.
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Wow, I point out the pros and cons trying to save you money and it ****es you off. Then for some reason you go ahead with my suggestion which now makes no sense if you are not flying IFR as you stated:dunno:

You do have choices to fly legal IFR. Just don't use a Garmin GPS, another problem solved. I flew IFR for 25 years without one. Yes the data bases are expensive but, there is a lot of work goes into the data bases and there is a lot of liability. Each time you update all of the info is erased from the card and then completely new data is installed and then checked for corruption. I don't know how much time Jepp spends on up dating the material each month but I suspect quite a bit. The info that the government puts out is certainly not in a form to put directly into the electronic data bases. I am sure there is a good profit for Jepp in this but, last I checked it is a for profit company.
If there was a company out there that thought they could make a profit in competition with Jepp it would be competing. In fact why did Garmin not choose to sell navigation data bases for its own units?

But, yes it is quite expensive. The last corporate job I had the owner spent about $2500 a year for subscriptions. I think the same material today is about 25% more. Thankfully it did not come out of my pocket. I preferred paper charts so there was HI and LO enroute, approach plates, two GPS updates (the second is considerable cheaper) and Avidyne update, and XM weather. We did not do terrain on the Garmins since I had the Avidyne.
But, tell me something that is cheap, besides the pilot, in aviation.

However, I still don't give a d***:rofl:
 
Any chance you can find someone who will let you borrow their unexpired card for the day of the check ride and then start subscribing when you get more serious about flying IFR down the road?
 
ronnieh said:
You do have choices to fly legal IFR.
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While that's true as far as it goes, you do not have a choice on an instrument practical test (which the OP is contemplating) -- the database on any installed IFR GPS must be current for that no matter what the AIM or AFMS say about flying IFR with an expired database.
 
Your are correct, I should have said don't install a GPS, problem solved. OK, OK I am being a little facetious. The data bases are expensive especially for the private pilot that may not fly IFR very often if at all which was the point of the OP. I stand corrected and walk back the sarcasm a little.
 
I've found the one time update good enough for my kind of operation. I don't file IFR regularly, when I do it's just in order to blast through a mickey mouse layer and go direct ("slant golf or I don't go!" is my war chant :D), otherwise arriving at destinations with VOR/ILS services or visual approach/VFR weather. In an emergency, I'm shooting a GPS approach with an expired database or a handheld anyways. I can see if I tried to keep the thing updated all the time it would become a detractor from the avocation; it'd surely tick me off to have such an overhead for simpleton navigation products.

One thing i have not seen mentioned in the thread: I currently have a East/Central database in the 430w, will I need a new card in order to fit an all-US database or similar wide area, or does the existing card have the ability to hold the larger database? I'd love for my moving map not to look like a satellite picture of nighttime North/South Korea, when I fly west of El Paso.... :D
 
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