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I don't know, but his attack was completely unfounded and uncalled for.
At first at looked like he was plain crazy with the bizzare outflow of mad hate, but now I think he was just drunk out of his mind when he started this thread. Now he sobered up and tries to pretend being a victim here and playing "personal attack" card.

And, for Tom-D to jump to his defense was just icing on the cake.
I gather they know each other IRL.
 
I thought their might be a little biker bar mentality here.

There you go insulting a large group of people again. Which is fine, if you can take it when they insult you back.
 
At first at looked like he was plain crazy with the bizzare outflow of mad hate, but now I think he was just drunk out of his mind when he started this thread. Now he sobered up and tries to pretend being a victim here and playing "personal attack" card.


I gather they know each other IRL.

“There's nothing wrong with enjoying looking at the surface of the ocean itself, except that when you finally see what goes on underwater,you realize that you've been missing the whole point of the ocean. Staying on the surface all the time is like going to the circus and staring at the outside of the tent.”
Dave Barry
 
I thought their might be a little biker bar mentality here.
Not because of my name or my 55 year allegiance to a product reflected by same; and not in the habit of attending to "biker bar mentality," I in good faith have corrected your erroneous statement to read, "I thought there might be a little biker bar mentality here."

HR(Harley Reich, on this forum almost since its inception)
 
Not because of my name or my 55 year allegiance to a product reflected by same; and not in the habit of attending to "biker bar mentality," I in good faith have corrected your erroneous statement to read, "I thought there might be a little biker bar mentality here."

HR(Harley Reich, on this forum almost since its inception)

Got you beat Harley. There was a guy named Harley Ryder (honest) who was a member of GWRRA. :yes:
 
Well, it is about that time...To unsubscribe from this thread, please visit this page:
No joke. The OP lobbed a poorly thought out grenade and maybe just expected everyone to agree. I dunno. But there certainly has not been any valid point made by the OP, it's just argument at this point. As much as I'd love to see an intelligent and informed discussion of E/AB maintenance and alterations, it seems this isn't it.
 
Got you beat Harley. There was a guy named Harley Ryder (honest) who was a member of GWRRA. :yes:
:eek:) Apologies for the thread creep here. I had to Google GWRRA to get the translation. It brought back a funny occurrence. I've had Maine motorcycle license plate 9 since 1998; my father had it from 1954 until he died. One day I and the HOG got the red light in Brunswick, Maine. I was stopped beside a beautiful Gold Wing which I noticed had Maine plate 9A. So I said to the operator, "That's a low number." "" Yep; they don't come any lower that that one."" "I have one lower." ""Not possible; what is it?" "Number 9." ""No, you can't it doesn't exist. I asked for it but they told me there's no such number; the lowest you can get is 9A."" "Well, 9 is mine; it's been in the family since 1954."
The light changed to green and I pulled away while he held back -- and you know why. Damned if we didn't get the next red light at Brunswick Ford/McDonald's. He pulled up beside me: ""SON OF A *****! HOW DID YOU GET THAT NUMBER?"" "I told you, it's been in the family since 1954. When my Dad died the Sec. of State transferred it to my name." About that time the light turned green and the gorgeous Gold Wing took off out of there like a big-assed bird, madder than hell, and left my FLH-S in its dust. Funny!

HR
(The photos go back to late March/early April of 2002 or so. I'd ridden solo from Maine to Newburyport, MA for a "Babe-In" meeting of Babes and Airplanes Group. En route I got caught in about three or four rain showers. It was an interesting trip. How's that for "helmet hair" in photo #3? I was a drowned rat; only had raised the goatee for a theatrical role I was doing.)
 

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And, for Tom-D to jump to his defense was just icing on the cake.

Well when you EXP guys all misconstrue the message and start the thread creep, start the personal attacks, some one must speak up.

I know Brien - Yes, Am I his keeper? NO, His problem is not with the EXP operators that do it correctly, because he is one. It is with the attitude here that the non builder, but the buyer of the EXP, category aircraft can buy then modify the aircraft any way then not do the proper method of recertification.

OBTW if this isn't such a sore subject, why are you guys getting so pizzie?
 
I'd love to see an intelligent and informed discussion of E/AB maintenance and alterations, it seems this isn't it.

nor will you ever find it on the blue boards. simply because half the experts here read into every post what's not there.
 
It is with the attitude here that the non builder, but the buyer of the EXP, category aircraft can buy then modify the aircraft any way then not do the proper method of recertification.

The non-builder, buyer, of an E-AB airplane can indeed perform major alterations on the airplane without any "recertification" needed. All he has to do is follow whatever his op lims for that particular aircraft say with regard to major modifications... exactly the same way as a builder/owner does. If he has the old restrictive version of the op lims tied to his aircraft, he needs to upgrade to the newest op lims version before doing any work on the plane.

There are different versions of the operating limitations boilerplate in effect over the E-AB fleet. Some versions are lenient, some older ones are terribly restrictive. What matters is which particular version of the document a particular aircraft has in force over it at the time a major change is performed to that aircraft.

Here's a summary of the different op lims versions from as given on the EAA website: (http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/issues/operating_limitations.asp)
Historically, that limitation has evolved (with the help of EAA).

  1. (What many uninformed folk might think is still in effect over the entire E-AB fleet) ... is an example of what was standard in 1985 - any major changes required an FAA inspection and re-certification of the aircraft. Which created a major FAA FSDO workload.
  2. In 1993 the limitation wording changed to "notify the FSDO prior to making any changes." Now it was no longer mandatory to get a new FSDO inspection if the FSDO approved your change data in writing. This reduced their workload by 50%, but you still had to get their approval in writing before starting with changing your aircraft.
  3. In 1999 the limitation was changed. No longer does the FSDO have to be notified of a major change. The aircraft owner now just has to make two entries in the logbook - one describing the major change, and after a minimum of a five hour test flight, one showing that the safety of the aircraft (FAR 91.319) and the critical airspeeds (Vx, Vy, Vso) have been reestablished. No FSDO workload.
  4. In 2004 the limitation changed again. In this change the owner has to obtain concurrence from the local FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test flight area. FAR 91.305 provides the FAA guidance for this change. You can find the current limitation in FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 153b(19).
Anyone with one of the old, restrictive op lims can update to the newest version thru either their local FSDO, or thru any DAR who possesses Function Code 33 can also issue the most current version of the op lims to your individual E-AB aircraft.

Those of us who are blessed to have the particular version issued from 1999 thru 2003 are keeping our versions ;)
 
The non-builder, buyer, of an E-AB airplane can indeed perform major alterations on the airplane without any "recertification" needed.

Neal, you missed my point. there are EXP owners that haven't a clue what the rules are, nor do they care.
 
Quote:
Historically, that limitation has evolved (with the help of EAA).
(What many uninformed folk might think is still in effect over the entire E-AB fleet) ... is an example of what was standard in 1985 - any major changes required an FAA inspection and re-certification of the aircraft. Which created a major FAA FSDO workload.
In 1993 the limitation wording changed to "notify the FSDO prior to making any changes." Now it was no longer mandatory to get a new FSDO inspection if the FSDO approved your change data in writing. This reduced their workload by 50%, but you still had to get their approval in writing before starting with changing your aircraft.
In 1999 the limitation was changed. No longer does the FSDO have to be notified of a major change. The aircraft owner now just has to make two entries in the logbook - one describing the major change, and after a minimum of a five hour test flight, one showing that the safety of the aircraft (FAR 91.319) and the critical airspeeds (Vx, Vy, Vso) have been reestablished. No FSDO workload.
In 2004 the limitation changed again. In this change the owner has to obtain concurrence from the local FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test flight area. FAR 91.305 provides the FAA guidance for this change. You can find the current limitation in FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 153b(19).

And why were the rules changed so many times ?

So,,,, do you want the rules changed again? a few bad apples will get it done. that was Brien's warning.
 
Tools:

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Tales from the DAR Side

Operating Limitations – Major or Minor Change?

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Joe Norris

Continuing our discussion of experimental, amateur-built operating limitations, I want to talk about something that is a constant source of conversation and questions – the “major change.” One of the benefits of owning or operating an experimental aircraft is that you are free to, well, experiment! The aircraft isn’t tied to any sort of FAA type design or specification, so there are few restrictions on the changes a person might wish to make or who may make them. As with all things, however, one must make sure to check and see what the operating limitations allow and require. One thing you’ll find in all operating limitations will be requirements for incorporating a “major change.” What’s a major change, you ask? Well, that’s where the conversation and questions start.
Let’s begin with the requirements as they appear in the current version of amateur-built operating limitations. Amateur-built operating limitations issued under current FAA guidance will contain the following item:
After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO [Flight Standards District Office] of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different type of engine (reciprocating to turbine) or a change of a fixed-pitch from or to a controllable propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft’s file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. The FSDO may require additional time (more than 5 hours) depending on the extent of the modification. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a detailed logbook entry describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso _______, Vx _______, and Vy _______, and the weight ______, and CG location _________ at which they were obtained.”
That’s a lot of words! Let’s break it down. The first sentence includes a key item regarding where to find the definition of a major change, guiding us to FAR 21.93. Here’s what it says (the pertinent part):
[C]hanges in type design are classified as minor and major. A “minor change” is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are “major changes.”
Note that the regulation actually calls out the definition of a “minor change” and goes on to state that anything not fitting that definition is a major change. Typical regulatory-speak! The real key here, though, is that it says a minor change will have “no appreciable effect” on the items called out. This is where the discussion really gets interesting, because in order to make a determination of whether a change is major or minor, we need to know what’s considered an “appreciable” change. Look high and low, however, and you won’t find an official FAA definition of “appreciable.” You’re on your own. You will need to use your best judgment to determine whether or not the change you wish to make will have an “appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product.” (The “product” being your aircraft in this case.) There’s no one-size-fits-all answer to this question, so you really need to apply some logic and consideration and try to make a reasonable decision.
The way I answer the question when someone asks whether or not a particular change is major or minor is to apply two lines of thinking. First, if you really have to think hard and still can’t quite convince yourself that the change you’re making is a minor change, then it probably isn’t! In that case, just go ahead and follow the requirements for incorporating a major change as called out in your operating limitations. Second, if you think you’ve convinced yourself that the change you wish to make is indeed minor, think about what you’d say if you were called in front of an FAA Administrative Law Judge to explain your decision. If you feel you have a good, solid explanation that will convince the FAA judge that your change is indeed minor, then you’re in good shape. If not, consider it a major change and act accordingly. Of course, you can always call the local FAA FSDO and ask one of the airworthiness inspectors what they think, but they don’t have a definition of “appreciable” either and typically aren’t intimately familiar with experimental aircraft or operating limitations, so be prepared. Bottom line, use your best judgment and err on the conservative side.
Okay, so now you’ve decided that what you have is a major change. What do you need to do? The limitations say you’re supposed to contact the cognizant FSDO and get concurrence on the suitability of the proposed flight-test area. What you’re doing when incorporating a major change is putting the aircraft back into a Phase 1 flight-test situation to test the change, so you need to have an approved flight-test area. If the aircraft is still based at the same airport where the initial flight tests were conducted, you can simply request the same flight-test area and you’ll probably get it. Otherwise you can either suggest something to the FSDO inspector and see if they like it or ask them what they recommend. As with most dealings with the FAA, it’s better to be proactive and suggest something rather than sitting back and taking what they want to give you. Either way, make sure you get the approval for the flight-test area in writing so that you can have a record of what was agreed upon. Note also that if you’re changing from a piston to a turbine engine or from a fixed to a constant-speed propeller (or vice versa), you need to file a new application for an airworthiness certificate with the FAA.
While waiting to hear back from the FSDO on the flight-test area, you can make a detailed entry in the aircraft maintenance records describing the change. This is required before any flight testing actually occurs. Once you have concurrence for the flight-test area and you’ve made the entry in the aircraft records, you can actually fly the aircraft with the major change incorporated. This is a flight-testing program much the same as your initial fight tests, so the same parameters apply – no passengers, day VFR only, within the sparsely populated restricted area, etc. The test is required to be at least 5 hours, but for some changes the FSDO may require more than 5 hours. Typically the 5 hours will be sufficient.
The last thing you need to make sure to do is close out the flight-test period by making the appropriate entry in the aircraft records as called out in the operating limitations. You’ll notice this is the very same verbiage as used when you completed the original flight-test period. And just like the original period, the aircraft isn’t released from the flight-test restrictions until this entry is made in the aircraft’s records. This is a very important step that is sometimes missed. Remember, the job isn’t finished until the paperwork is done!
So that covers what’s required by the current version of amateur-built operating limitations. But what if your aircraft was certificated under an earlier version of FAA guidance? Let’s take a look at some of the earlier versions of major change requirements so we can see the differences.
If your aircraft was certificated from late 1999 to January of 2003, you’re in luck! You have the most liberal of all major change limitations. Your operating limitations will look like this:
After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with § 91.319(b). All operations will be conducted VFR, day only, in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a detailed logbook entry describing the change prior to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the following or a similarly worded statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”
This might almost look exactly like the limitation I previously quoted, but it’s a very important “almost.” The big difference is that there’s no requirement to gain concurrence from the FSDO for your flight-test area. Under this limitation there’s no requirement to contact the FAA at all when incorporating a major change, regardless of what the change might be! You just simply make the entry describing the change in the aircraft records before flying the aircraft, then go test the change for a minimum of 5 hours. Once you’ve done so, you make the entry closing out the flight test and you’re good to go. That’s as simple as it gets!
For aircraft certificated earlier than late 1999 the differences are greater. For much of the ’80s and ’90s the major change provisions in the operating limitations stated that the owner/operator had to contact the FAA and receive a response in writing before flying the aircraft after incorporating a major change. This usually involved describing the change to the FAA FSDO inspector and negotiating the procedure for approval. There was no set standard in the FAA guidance, such as a minimum 5-hour flight test. The FAA dictated the requirements on a case-by-case basis.
Even more significantly, operating limitations issued up until the early ’80s simply stated that any major change invalidated the airworthiness certificate. It means that anytime a major change is incorporated into the aircraft the FAA will have to come and reinspect the entire aircraft for issuance of a new airworthiness certificate. There are many airplanes operating today that still hold these old operating limitations, so it’s wise to check and see what you have if you’re flying an older homebuilt.
Pilots of homebuilts still operating under these older versions of the limitations can apply to the FAA for an updated version. This is probably a good idea. Not only do you get the updated language for major changes, but you also get the most current language regarding flight over densely populated areas, pilot-in-command requirements, and night/IFR requirements as well. It pays to go through the process of updating your operating limitations. You’ll need to work with your local FSDO to update, but if the folks there don’t seem sure of what to do, you can contact me or any of the folks in the EAA Aviation Services department (info@eaa.org) and we’ll set them straight!
We’ll continue our discussion of operating limitations in next month’s Experimenter. Until then, make sure your operating limitations are onboard your homebuilt when you’re flying, and make sure you know what they allow and require!
 
Under the current version of amateru-built operating limitations you also have to comply with "Note also that if you’re changing from a piston to a turbine engine or from a fixed to a constant-speed propeller (or vice versa), you need to file a new application for an airworthiness certificate with the FAA."
 
I am not in it for the money, no gravy train here. I have read post of LOA that are hard to believe exist. If they exist how about scanning one in and sharing it with us, you could black out personal information you do not want to show.


Interesting request.......:rolleyes:..

I am COMPLETELY transparent....

My sig line clearly identifies me and my N number is clearly posted. So is my website in the sig line....

For all we know you are some inmate serving life at a maximum security prison...

Geez........... Any ficticious person can call themselves brien23...:lol:

Identify yourself and I will consider your request....


Your move buddy....:yes:
 
Yeah, we've been over that. So was there an actual point to the massive copy/paste of copyrighted content from the EAA web site, where virtually all E/AB owners can read it just as easily? I may have missed it.
 
AMATEUR-BUILT MAINTENANCE

By Earl Lawrence, EAA Government Programs Office The EAA Government Programs office has recently received many questions about who can do maintenance and what maintenance is required on an experimental amateur-built aircraft. So I thought this would be a good time to review the regulations.
FAR Part 43.1 (b) specifically excludes experimental aircraft. It states, "This part does not apply to any aircraft for which an experimental airworthiness certificate has been issued, unless a different kind of airworthiness certificate had previously been issued for that aircraft." I stress the word aircraft so that it is not interpreted to include an engine.
What about major repairs and alterations? First, you never have to fill out a form 337 for an experimental aircraft. Repairs, major or minor, can be done by anyone ( remember Part 43.1 (b). However, alterations are different. If you alter the aircraft with a different propeller or engine, for example, then it is not the airplane for which you received an airworthiness certificate. This would also apply to changing pistons or magnetos. It is a new and untested airplane. If you change propellers, you must notify the FAA (not by a 337) of your change.
Your aircraft's operating limitations should have a statement such as the following in regard to major changes: "The FAA cognizant Flight Standards Office must be notified, and their response received in writing, prior to flying this aircraft after incorporating a major change as defined by FAR 21.93."
If you do not have such a statement on your operating limitations, then you can claim you do not have to notify the FAA. However, EAA suggests that you do so even if you do not have this limitation.
The FAA inspector will make a determination as to whether he needs to come out and inspect the change and/or assign a new test-flight period. If the inspector gives you an OK by letter (which is often done), you should note the date, time, name, and change in your aircraft log book. If the inspector wants to inspect the aircraft, it is the same as when you first received your airworthiness certificate. You start all over. It is a new airplane. This information is covered in the FAA ORDER 8130.2C paragraph 142 "Issuance Of Experimental Operating Limitations." Every FAA inspector has a copy of this ORDER.
If the aircraft received its original airworthiness certificate based on the fact that the engine was certified and you alter it in any manner that would render it no longer within certification requirements, then you must notify the FAA of your change and receive an approval.
Look at it this way, you may use any combination of parts you wish to build your aircraft. However, once you receive your airworthiness certificate you cannot alter it without getting the FAA to reinspect the "new" aircraft.
ADs apply to all aircraft, aircraft assemblies and parts the AD is written against, no matter what type of aircraft they are installed in. The key to this statement is, "that the AD is written against." For example, if an AD is written against a particular make, model and serial number propeller, it only applies to that particular make model and serial number. It applies to that particular make model and serial number propeller no matter what aircraft it is installed on. Now this is where I complicate things. You, as an amateur builder, remove the data plate of that propeller, send it to the FAA, the FAA notifies the manufacturer, and you make it a Ross propeller model R1, serial number 001. Now the propeller is no longer the propeller listed in the AD, so it does not apply. The FAA may, however, issue a new AD against the Ross propeller model R1 serial number 001. To date the FAA has never done this, but they can.
If you install an electronic ignition system on a Lycomming engine, you are still responsible for ADs on other accessories on the engine and the engine itself if you have the component listed on the AD on your engine. And, of course, if you haven't changed its designation to the Ross model R1 serial number 001. In general, you can say if your AC received its airworthiness certificate based on the fact it had a certified engine, then the ADs apply. If you received an airworthiness certificate based on the fact that your engine was not certified, then the ADs don't apply.
Isn't this fun?!
Now about who can do work on amateur-built aircraft. Anyone can normally work on an experimental aircraft and sign off the work, including your two-year-old son. Some FAA field inspectors do not believe this. Remember FAR Part 43.1(b) "This part does not apply to any aircraft for which an experimental airworthiness certificate has been issued." The operating limitations that each experimental aircraft must have are what replaces Part 43. Each set of operating limitations is different. However, an FAA inspector has the power to place a requirement in the operating limitations that all work must be done by an FAA certified A&P. So far to EAA's knowledge, this has never happened on an amateur built aircraft. Most operating limitations contain a statement that says an annual "condition" inspection must be performed per the scope and detail of FAR Part 43 Appendix D. It also states that an FAA certificated A&P or repairman must perform this inspection. Note it says, "A&P or Repairman." It does not require an IA.
Let me clarify this. Anyone can work on an experimental aircraft and sign off the work. However, the annual "condition" inspection must be completed by an A&P or a Repairman.
I hope this clarifies some of the confusion that is out there.
THE END
 
And, for Tom-D to jump to his defense was just icing on the cake.

Well when you EXP guys all misconstrue the message and start the thread creep, start the personal attacks, some one must speak up.

Really, Tom? Really? What don't you understand about:

And this is coming from a C182 driver who has only once flown an experimental.

Tom-D;1420099O said:
BTW if this isn't such a sore subject, why are you guys getting so pizzie?

What do you and Brien not understand about how it's the consensus here that this is a bigger issue with drivers of certificated aircraft than it is of experimentals? You two are trying to spread hate...ala WBC style.

god hates experimentals.
 
Neal, you missed my point. there are EXP owners that haven't a clue what the rules are, nor do they care.

And there are certified plane owners flying without a clue as to the rules, or they don't care.
 
And there are certified plane owners flying without a clue as to the rules, or they don't care.
And mechanics turning wrenches without a clue as to the rules, or they don't care.

And plumbers and electricians without a clue as to the rules, or they don't care.

And the list goes on. There will always be that bottom few percent. Have we seen any evidence that it's becoming an actual problem? In other words, is there any factual basis for worrying about additional regulation?
 
For those that are curious - here are my Flybaby's operating limitations, I appear to have the "more restricted" version.

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Are homebuilts falling out of the sky from mechanical problems? I still don't quite get the point of the entire thread.

Most experimental crashes I read are just some doofus who tried something stupid and lost it.

Put every pilot through mandatory slow flight and spin recovery to the point they're puking, and I'll bet the accident rates would go down across the board.
 
Most experimental crashes I read are just some doofus who tried something stupid and lost it.
There seems to be a needlessly high number of fuel system and engine problems... kind of goes with the territory of being experimental, IMHO. Not all experiments are successful.
 
No, now that I think about it, maybe this is the most self serving thread I've ever read here.
 
There seems to be a needlessly high number of fuel system and engine problems... kind of goes with the territory of being experimental, IMHO. Not all experiments are successful.


I don't have the actual figures at hand, so I'm talking out my wazoo a little, but if the two guys I know are any example of how most homebuilts are constructed, I have no problems whatsoever with it.

The builder guys I know are almost possessed with the details down to the point of rivet holes and the science behind them.

I can't see either one of these guys building a sub-standard plane. :redface:
 
For those that are curious - here are my Flybaby's operating limitations, I appear to have the "more restricted" version.

This is the one I am familiar with, as both of my previous EXP customers had. the para 11 is the the restriction I mentioned prior.
 
I have never met an experimental aircraft builder, or E-AB owner who didn't build their plane, who isn't a 200% stickler for following the rules and keeping their airplane in tip top airworthy condition legal-wise or mechanical-wise. When you put your own life/safety on the line every time you hop in an aircraft you personally maintain yourself and take off into the sky.... well, that provides an extremely strong motivating factor for protecting your bacon unlike any bureaucratic rules can.

I can't say the same about all the owners of factory built aircraft I've ever met however. More than a few of them consider the existing rules to be too obtuse.

As to the experimental op lims requirements to file a new 8130-6 for change of engine type or FP to/from CS propeller, it is no longer considered "re-certifying" an E-AB, it is used merely as a conveyance to update your existing aircraft records and you're supposed to accompany it with a letter stating such. Nobody ever changes between a turbine and a reciprocating engine so that's a moot point anyway, but this practice is still in common use today for those who change their propeller types. BTW, changing to a new prop of the same type (FP-FP or CS-CS) does not trigger this requirement, and ground adjustable props are considered FP since you cannot change their pitch in flight.

And Brien23's pulling up of that ancient Bill Lawrence document cleverly leaves out the fact that this article was from 1996 and is WAY out of date and was superseded by newer policies starting in 1999 (a decade and a half ago).

Even the venerable Joe Norris's Tales from the DAR Side article has a couple mistakes in it too.

And Tom, you asked "why did those rules change so many times?" Well hopefully you did notice that, with the exception of the last change, that with each change made, the rules get more and more lenient for the E-AB owner, and each change made for *less* involvement of the FAA.... except for the last change when all they wanted back was the need to be involved for determining your chosen Phase-1 flyoff area, and that one actually makes some common sense for helping enhance the safety of performing your test flights in an agreed-upon, known area.

And now I present to everyone here this link... sure to make owners of antique/vintage planes drool in anticipation, and to also make the heads of some rulemongers explode in exasperation: http://macsblog.com/2014/03/could-your-airplane-be-a-pnc/
 
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How is paragraph 11 harmful?

There ya go, thinking I said it was harmful, where did ya get that? that is the restriction I referred to, you must do the paper work, you must know the rules, many who buy don't, those who build do.
 
we have a inspections that the owner can't influence, no so the EXP aircraft.
They can just not do the inspection, many choose that route. Others do things and don't tell the IA, I've seen PLENTY of that, and I've never seen one of them not get their inspection completed.

I honestly can't think of a single case of an experimental owner that I've seen break the regulations about what they can and can't do as far as maintenance goes. I absolutely cannot say that about the certified owners I know, by an enormous margin.
 
They can just not do the inspection, many choose that route. Others do things and don't tell the IA, I've seen PLENTY of that, and I've never seen one of them not get their inspection completed.

I honestly can't think of a single case of an experimental owner that I've seen break the regulations about what they can and can't do as far as maintenance goes. I absolutely cannot say that about the certified owners I know, by an enormous margin.
apparently you and I don't camp in the same park.
 
we have a inspections that the owner can't influence, no so the EXP aircraft.
Owners can and do shop for pencil whippers. Maybe you can't influence the IA but you can pick one with the standards you want.
 
You do not need a DER to do field approvals, and when you under stand the major / minor alterations rules, many times you are not required to have FAA approval.


Surely you know an instrument panel in most planes are used to stiffen the fuselage in that location. That makes them structural and cutting big holes in them will weaken the panel. I am amazed that your local FSDO would sign off on a procedure like that without ANY engineering done to confirm the structural integrity has not been compromised... If they let a A&P get away with what I perceive as a obvious MAJOR modification with just a field approval then your complaint about experimentals getting away with murder could be well founded.

If that is the case, then in my opinion the weak link is the local FSDO not enforcing the FAA regs properly.... My guess is it is time for someone to file a notice to the FAA in Washington DC to investigate the operations of that FSDO as the fact you did alter that 170's structure with just a field approval without any DER's engineering involved...

I am not sure who is more dangerous at this point, the small minority of experimental onwers or the FAA regulated A&P's / IA's...:idea::dunno:...
 
On both my EAB's the instrument panel has nothing to do with the structure of the airplane. One is wood and the other is tube frame. You could remove the panels out of both airplanes and fly without any problems.

I could do this panel removal and go fly. I do not need anyone to look at anything in my EAB or sign anything.

Why I fly an EAB.

Tony
 
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Owners can and do shop for pencil whippers. Maybe you can't influence the IA but you can pick one with the standards you want.


Experimentals do not need an IA to do a yearly Condition inspection.
 
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