Experimental AB a Thing Of The Past?

[Chip Sylverne]

The way I see it, this translates to creating growth and competition. When there is something a lot of people want, and they can all afford it, it becomes simple supply and demand, and every company worth their salt will want a piece of the pie.
Like Henning touched on, with new technological advances coming out, this would make it more attainable by Joe (or Jane) Pilot. Suppose said pilot wants a glass panel and diesel in their old 182 they take the family around in, it becomes less of a pipe dream. Having the same, meticulous and knowledgeable A&P handle all the changes should have no effect on the pilot's confidence in the changes.

No question, a positive step. But far from the incrementalism we've come to expect from the FAA. Curious as to where this originated. Isn't the director of the small airplane directorate a former EAA guy?
Kudos to whomever for getting this started.

 

[Henning]

No question, a positive step. But far from the incrementalism we've come to expect from the FAA. Curious as to where this originated. Isn't the director of the small airplane directorate a former EAA guy?
Kudos to whomever for getting this started.

There has been a significant amount of incremental data gathered over the years including a mirror system long established north of the border, Ex/AB and LSA here and abroad.

 

[N801BH]

Personally I think the experimental movement has played a huge roll in the direction this (might) be headed.... We can do stuff you certified guys can only dream about and if all the stars line up the FAA might let you do it in maybe 20 years or so. ..

Same with auto racing.... the stuff we add into the vehicles to improve them will trickle down to street cars in a 5 -7 year time frame..

Progress is a wonderful thing ya know..

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, pull your head out of the sand! The market for "turnkey" renovations would be unlimited! It is not uncommon for a buyer of a used RV to spend $50,000 - $250,000 on an E-AB. How much would it cost to rehab a nice straight 172 with the latest and greatest and sell it for $75k?

way more than it will sell for. labor is up, cost of the new glass instruments are more than the aircraft will sell for, a qt of paint is now well over 100 bucks, A set of wrinkle skins for an elevator is 1200 bucks. and the list goes on and on. Remember I do this and in this market I can't make wages.

 

[Geico266]

way more than it will sell for. labor is up, cost of the new glass instruments are more than the aircraft will sell for, a qt of paint is now well over 100 bucks, A set of wrinkle skins for an elevator is 1200 bucks. and the list goes on and on. Remember I do this and in this market I can't make wages.

You cannot be serious. This is the problem, you have not seen the amazing panels and avionics available at a reasonable cost. A new Dynon Skyview with all the bells and whitles including transponder, radio, engine monitoring, auto pilot, dual screen for $13k.

The wrinkle skins would now be $225 tops. You are still thinking ripoff certified prices trap crap. Currently, there is no competition.

 

[Tom-D]

Some one record this PDF and we will compare when final rule comes out.
It will probably not look like what was intended.

It doesn't matter what we want, the FAA will give you what you don't want.

Remember what we asked for when we got Light sport?
Remember what we asked for when got recreational pilot certificate?
and most resent, they jambed us with a AC telling us that they will now apply ADs to E-AB aircraft.

And EAA and AOPA called it a win.. yeah right.

 

[Tom-D]

You cannot be serious. This is the problem, you have not seen the amazing panels and avionics available at a reasonable cost. A new Dynon Skyview with all the bells and whitles including transponder, radio, engine monitoring, auto pilot, dual screen for $13k.

The wrinkle skins would now be $225 tops. You are still thinking ripoff certified prices trap crap. Currently, there is no competition.

First question where are you going to get wrinkle skins to start with. ? Cessna? or ? the machine to press them is 60K. would you like to buy one to make 10-15 sets per year?

Second, I'll give ya the 13k for an instrument panel, but the ones I was looking at during the northwest aviation trade show were 23-45K, uncertified, now add 15k for a paint job, 10k for an interior, and the buy in price for the mythical straight 172.

If you can get it done cheaper show me the shops I'd love to have them do some work.

 

[Tom-D]

The proposal that went in asked for a light sport aircraft that would be used for personal transportation and recreational use, up to and including the 182/Dakota.

and what did we get? A whole new set of manufacturing rules that does nothing we asked for.

 

[MickYoumans]

As a small plane owner I would love to see something like this as an available option. I don't have a problem with a certified mechanic doing my work but the parts for my plane are rediculously priced. I would love to put a Dynon SkyView system in my plane but can't under the current regulations. I personally think it would increase the value of my plane compared to the current old steam gages.

During my last annual the mechanic broke an 'L' bracket on my spinner backplate. At first he was wanting to charge me over $500 to get another backplate. After reminding him that he broke the bracket we decided to order just the broken bracket from Piper. This tiny little bracket cost $75 and I had to wait two months on the part. You can buy an entire spinner assembly for my engine at Aircraft Spruce for around $250...except you can't put it on my certified plane. So, instead I had to wait two months to repair an old spinner plate.

I also priced a replacement cable for my floor vent. The price I was quoted was over $600! Really!!! If I could use non-TSO'ed parts, I know this cable could be replaced for less than $100.

I am as safety conscious as anybody around here and want to keep my airplane maintained in the best condition possible. I know there has got to be a way to provide some relief for those of us in the non-commercial relm of aviation.

 

[Geico266]

First question where are you going to get wrinkle skins to start with. ? Cessna? or ? the machine to press them is 60K. would you like to buy one to make 10-15 sets per year?

Second, I'll give ya the 13k for an instrument panel, but the ones I was looking at during the northwest aviation trade show were 23-45K, uncertified, now add 15k for a paint job, 10k for an interior, and the buy in price for the mythical straight 172.

If you can get it done cheaper show me the shops I'd love to have them do some work.

Avionics installed $15k. Hillaero paint job would be under $10k. Their quality is beyond question. Most shops would be in the $6,500 to $8k range. Interior would be $5,500 tops for cloth from Flight Line, they do most of the RV-10s you see at OSH.

 

[Tom-D]

As a small plane owner I would love to see something like this as an available option. I don't have a problem with a certified mechanic doing my work but the parts for my plane are rediculously priced. I would love to put a Dynon SkyView system in my plane but can't under the current regulations. I personally think it would increase the value of my plane compared to the current old steam gages.

During my last annual the mechanic broke an 'L' bracket on my spinner backplate. At first he was wanting to charge me over $500 to get another backplate. After reminding him that he broke the bracket we decided to order just the broken bracket from Piper. This tiny little bracket cost $75 and I had to wait two months on the part. You can buy an entire spinner assembly for my engine at Aircraft Spruce for around $250...except you can't put it on my certified plane. So, instead I had to wait two months to repair an old spinner plate.

I also priced a replacement cable for my floor vent. The price I was quoted was over $600! Really!!! If I could use non-TSO'ed parts, I know this cable could be replaced for less than $100.

I am as safety conscious as anybody around here and want to keep my airplane maintained in the best condition possible. I know there has got to be a way to provide some relief for those of us in the non-commercial relm of aviation.

You need a new Mechanic that repairs stuff not shoot the parts gun at it.

You can supervise the manufacturer of replacement parts for your aircraft.

 

[Henning]

First question where are you going to get wrinkle skins to start with. ? Cessna? or ? the machine to press them is 60K. would you like to buy one to make 10-15 sets per year?

Second, I'll give ya the 13k for an instrument panel, but the ones I was looking at during the northwest aviation trade show were 23-45K, uncertified, now add 15k for a paint job, 10k for an interior, and the buy in price for the mythical straight 172.

If you can get it done cheaper show me the shops I'd love to have them do some work.

The skins I can build in an HVAC or other commercial sheet metal shop, just mark the sheet out and tell em what to break; depending on where I'm living you can figure between a case of beer and a couple hundred dollars; but then again, I can do that now as well.

 

[gismo]

I believe it would be a death blow to many FBOs and repair shops in this struggling industry. and the A&P-IAs would be basically unemployed.

I'd prefer a rather different approach combining two significant changes. One would be to allow any pilot/owner to perform virtually any maintenance or repair but only after an A&P "trains" them for the specific work and signs their pilot logbook with an endorsement describing the task the pilot/owner is now authorized to perform. The endorsement could be make/model or even SN specific at the discretion of the signing A&P. I'd also extend the same requirement for tasks currently allowed by Pt43 appendix A with grandfathered authorization for tasks already performed and logged by the pilot.

Second, I'd establish a category of non-structural parts that can be evaluated by any A&P (or maybe only ones with IA) which could be installed on any airplane not used for commercial flight. IOW for those airplanes the whole 337 process (or at least the part where the FSDO gets to disapprove the installation) would be skipped.

 

[Geico266]

As a small plane owner I would love to see something like this as an available option. I don't have a problem with a certified mechanic doing my work but the parts for my plane are rediculously priced. I would love to put a Dynon SkyView system in my plane but can't under the current regulations. I personally think it would increase the value of my plane compared to the current old steam gages.

During my last annual the mechanic broke an 'L' bracket on my spinner backplate. At first he was wanting to charge me over $500 to get another backplate. After reminding him that he broke the bracket we decided to order just the broken bracket from Piper. This tiny little bracket cost $75 and I had to wait two months on the part. You can buy an entire spinner assembly for my engine at Aircraft Spruce for around $250...except you can't put it on my certified plane. So, instead I had to wait two months to repair an old spinner plate.

I also priced a replacement cable for my floor vent. The price I was quoted was over $600! Really!!! If I could use non-TSO'ed parts, I know this cable could be replaced for less than $100.

I am as safety conscious as anybody around here and want to keep my airplane maintained in the best condition possible. I know there has got to be a way to provide some relief for those of us in the non-commercial relm of aviation.

Coming from the experimental world we see this kind of stuff all the time. Hopefully, this proposed rule will change that and make new opportunities for those who can adapt.

 

[Tom-D]

Avionics installed $15k. Hillaero paint job would be under $10k. Their quality is beyond question. Most shops would be in the $6,500 to $8k range. Interior would be $5,500 tops for cloth from Flight Line, they do most of the RV-10s you see at OSH.

Your dreaming.

 

[hindsight2020]

As a small plane owner I would love to see something like this as an available option. I don't have a problem with a certified mechanic doing my work but the parts for my plane are rediculously priced. I would love to put a Dynon SkyView system in my plane but can't under the current regulations. I personally think it would increase the value of my plane compared to the current old steam gages.

During my last annual the mechanic broke an 'L' bracket on my spinner backplate. At first he was wanting to charge me over $500 to get another backplate. After reminding him that he broke the bracket we decided to order just the broken bracket from Piper. This tiny little bracket cost $75 and I had to wait two months on the part. You can buy an entire spinner assembly for my engine at Aircraft Spruce for around $250...except you can't put it on my certified plane. So, instead I had to wait two months to repair an old spinner plate.

I also priced a replacement cable for my floor vent. The price I was quoted was over $600! Really!!! If I could use non-TSO'ed parts, I know this cable could be replaced for less than $100.

I am as safety conscious as anybody around here and want to keep my airplane maintained in the best condition possible. I know there has got to be a way to provide some relief for those of us in the non-commercial relm of aviation.

Count me in. The flexibility and affordability it would provide me in being able to have a suitable alternative to the mx costs of my warrior (which are invariably a drop in the bucket when compared to complex retracts and above) would be priceless. Trim button disintegrated in my hand last flight. Looked up online and they want 600 bucks for the little top hat thingy. So I fly with manual trim now. Screw that racket. Replacing that part affordably wouldn't be a problem if said ruling applied. Out with the steam gages in with the Dynon solid state would be the order of business; flying behind that vacuum system in hard IFR is the pits. Thing precesses so much compared to solid state it's not even funny. And it's always one exploding pump away from partial panel, fun. Aspen wants first born children for the same capability with the pope's blessing (FAA). Screw that.

Oh, maybe finally I can *legally* fly with my pirate landing light too then... LOL Ah screw it, Im saving my cash until I can spring up to the Glasair and let the certified cheerleaders to their own devices...let them pay 600 bucks for a trim button while keeping the "riff raff" priced out of their steam engine collectible car hobby....

 

[PW_Plack]

...the Part 135 operators would be devastated by higher prices caused by manufacturers loosing interest in supplying the market that narrow.

So, if I want to put a Dynon in a Champ, I should feel guilty for not subsidizing 135? Sorry!

No secret where this is coming from. In 2010, the last year for which I saw numbers, there were something like 941 new EAB added to the FAA registry. That's more than the combined piston airplane output of all the world's factories in the same year. If the FAA wants to stop the bleeding on the new pilot starts, (which it has partially caused,) this is one way forward.

And yes - Former EAA-er Earl Lawrence now heads the FAA's Small Airplane Directorate.

 

[Tom-D]

So, if I want to put a Dynon in a Champ, I should feel guilty for not subsidizing 135? Sorry!

It's called ripple effect in the industry, Shrink the market, manufacturers simply quit. grow the market by allowing the owners to cut labor costs and manufacturers will react.

 

[Tom-D]

Count me in.

Into what?

 

[Henning]

It's called ripple effect in the industry, Shrink the market, manufacturers simply quit. grow the market by allowing the owners to cut labor costs and manufacturers will react.

It's their own bloody fault. They sat on their system, not developing anything,charging way too much money and not providing a benefit for the premium in cost. If Continental isn't making $20,000 on a $30,000 TSIO 550 then their management is so incompetent they don't deserve to be in business. They sank next to nothing back into R&D over the last half century and billed us for most every error they or a supplier made.

Their model is dead and if that kills 135, so be it, but I doubt that will happen, particularly since most 135 operations are turbine powered anymore.

Shouting "No, No, you gotta keep taking this f-cking" just isn't resonating anymore. We need to shift the entire way we think about our nation and economy. It's time for Industry to start supporting People. We have been carrying Wall Street on our backs for over 150 years now and they just aren't giving back. It's time to rewrite the rules.

 

[Henning]

It's called ripple effect in the industry, Shrink the market, manufacturers simply quit. grow the market by allowing the owners to cut labor costs and manufacturers will react.

BTW, why do you suspect that those who already hold the PMA certificates would quit producing parts for certified operators? Besides, I bet no more than 30% of owners would participate anyway.

 

[John Baker]

So, if I put in some new, non certificated, but critical avionics in my certificated 33 year old Warrior, would a flight school still be able to use it?

John

 

[N801BH]

So, if I put in some new, non certificated, but critical avionics in my certificated 33 year old Warrior, would a flight school still be able to use it?

John

I bet not.... That would put the Warrior into the "commercial " class..

 

[steingar]

You guys are delusional if you think the FAA would adopt anything even approaching this.

 

[Tom-D]

BTW, why do you suspect that those who already hold the PMA certificates would quit producing parts for certified operators? Besides, I bet no more than 30% of owners would participate anyway.

Many of the aircraft parts manufacturers are struggling now, cutting the market must have its effects.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

If we could get the FAA to time limit STC's,similar to the patent system, than man, we'd be back in bidness....

 

[Challenged]

Can we just do a civil disobedience thing, or maybe just vote among ourselves? I really want to replace my panel and add an autopilot. We'll all move forward with this idea and then the FAA can catch up on their own speed.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Be very interesting to hear AOPA's official comments. This would be great for members, but for many of the magazine advertisers, not so much.
They'll have to make a potentially expensive choice.

 

[dell30rb]

Not really because aircraft prices will drop through the floor if it happens. It'll make buying a used plane like a used car, you won't know what someones done to it.

Doubt it. A plane with certified parts and clean logbooks can still be a real POS.. everyone knows that already

 

[Henning]

So, if I put in some new, non certificated, but critical avionics in my certificated 33 year old Warrior, would a flight school still be able to use it?

John

I would think not, rental for instruction is pretty clearly interpreted as commercial operation by the requirement for the 100hr inspections.

 

[Henning]

Can we just do a civil disobedience thing, or maybe just vote among ourselves? I really want to replace my panel and add an autopilot. We'll all move forward with this idea and then the FAA can catch up on their own speed.

You most certainly can. You can just put the plane together the way you want and just fly it. The likely hood that it ever even becomes an issue of you operating your private aircraft not in compliance are pretty low as long as you don't have something outwardly obvious. Some window covers and your panel and lack of annual will never come into question as long as you don't screw up operating.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You most certainly can. You can just put the plane together the way you want and just fly it. The likely hood that it ever even becomes an issue of you operating your private aircraft not in compliance are pretty low as long as you don't have something outwardly obvious. Some window covers and your panel and lack of annual will never come into question as long as you don't screw up operating.

Just be prepared for the aftermath when it is discovered.

 

[airguy]

Civil disobedience is always an option - just remember that the authorities will almost certainly exercise their option of punishing you if you are caught. The key is to do it your way quietly and without notice. Just yesterday afternoon I was running with scissors, but nobody saw me do it.

 

[Henning]

Just be prepared for the aftermath when it is discovered.

What is the maximum penalty that can be incurred for operating my aircraft privately with a non compliant panel? Add out of annual? How far down the road of flaunting can I continue in protest before I can be jailed?

 

[RotorAndWing]

What is the maximum penalty that can be incurred for operating my aircraft privately with a non compliant panel? Add out of annual? How far down the road of flaunting can I continue in protest before I can be jailed?

Do what you want with your aircraft. I highly advise to be compliant. If you knowingly refuse to comply, that will not go in your favor.

Flaunting ( even recommending ) non compliance on a public web board is not only foolish, it's idiotic.

If you are so inclined to find out how far you can get away with non compliance, here's a reading list:

14 CFR Part 43
14CFR Part 39
14 CFR Part 61
14 CFR Part 65
14 CFR Part 91

FAA Order 2150.3B

Title 49, subtitle VII

Let us know how it works out.

 

[Henning]

Do what you want with your aircraft. I highly advise to be compliant. If you knowingly refuse to comply, that will not go in your favor.

Flaunting ( even recommending ) non compliance on a public web board is not only foolish, it's idiotic.

If you are so inclined to find out how far you can get away with non compliance, here's a reading list:

14 CFR Part 43
14CFR Part 39
14 CFR Part 61
14 CFR Part 65
14 CFR Part 91

FAA Order 2150.3B

Title 49, subtitle VII

Let us know how it works out.

I never recommended it, I even spent real money on my panel. The issue was protesting the system and what could be done.

 

[Tom-D]

I never recommended it, I even spent real money on my panel. The issue was protesting the system and what could be done.

Nothing,,, they simply place a no operate sign on it and wait until you show up.

then you remove the sticker and the N number and place C letters on it. and fly away.

They will never look twice at it again.

When they call, and ask where the aircraft is, you answer " What"?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Can we just do a civil disobedience thing, or maybe just vote among ourselves? I really want to replace my panel and add an autopilot. We'll all move forward with this idea and then the FAA can catch up on their own speed.

You most certainly can. You can just put the plane together the way you want and just fly it. The likely hood that it ever even becomes an issue of you operating your private aircraft not in compliance are pretty low as long as you don't have something outwardly obvious. Some window covers and your panel and lack of annual will never come into question as long as you don't screw up operating.

I never recommended it, I even spent real money on my panel. The issue was protesting the system and what could be done.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Nothing,,, they simply place a no operate sign on it and wait until you show up.

then you remove the sticker and the N number and place C letters on it. and fly away.

They will never look twice at it again.

When they call, and ask where the aircraft is, you answer " What"?

Don't know where you got that from, but if you actually believe it you are a fool.

 

[gprellwitz]

Originally Posted by Challenged
Can we just do a civil disobedience thing, or maybe just vote among ourselves? I really want to replace my panel and add an autopilot. We'll all move forward with this idea and then the FAA can catch up on their own speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henning
You most certainly can. You can just put the plane together the way you want and just fly it. The likely hood that it ever even becomes an issue of you operating your private aircraft not in compliance are pretty low as long as you don't have something outwardly obvious. Some window covers and your panel and lack of annual will never come into question as long as you don't screw up operating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Henning
I never recommended it, I even spent real money on my panel. The issue was protesting the system and what could be done.

Come on. You certainly know that "can" is not the same as "shall" or even "should" and is not a recommendation of a course of action!