Ever just want to smack your CFII upside the head???

[Bill]

Last night was a perfect night to go out and get some actual (haven't done that yet), and again my II balked. So I pushed, swore a little, and asked when I WOULD get in some actual? What the heck, am I not good enough?

Answer: He's not current, so therefore not legal for us to go into actual. Since he sold his instrument airplane and bought a Citabria, he personally hasn't shot any approaches in about 9 months. So, no go.

I've offered to let him rent the plane and I'd be happy to be safety pilot for him to get cuttent so we can go get actual. *bonk*

Sheesh

 

[SkyHog]

Last night was a perfect night to go out and get some actual (haven't done that yet), and again my II balked. So I pushed, swore a little, and asked when I WOULD get in some actual? What the heck, am I not good enough?

Answer: He's not current, so therefore not legal for us to go into actual. Since he sold his instrument airplane and bought a Citabria, he personally hasn't shot any approaches in about 9 months. So, no go.

I've offered to let him rent the plane and I'd be happy to be safety pilot for him to get cuttent so we can go get actual. *bonk*

Sheesh

well - if getting actual is important to you (as it would be for me), then perhaps its time to find another II.

or maybe a bit more convincing will make him get current!

 

[Bill]

well - if getting actual is important to you (as it would be for me), then perhaps its time to find another II.

or maybe a bit more convincing will make him get current!

He knows how important it is, and we get along well together, so I'll just verbally beat him up until he gets current. Even if it means tossing him in he left seat and having him fly when I had scheduled the plane for a lesson.

But he better do it soon...

 

[Don Jones]

I feel your pain Bill, I got my first actual on my own after the rating. Never could get it to work out with my II. We have so little IMC around here and our schedules just never seem to work out. Keep after him
Don

 

[gismo]

He knows how important it is, and we get along well together, so I'll just verbally beat him up until he gets current. Even if it means tossing him in he left seat and having him fly when I had scheduled the plane for a lesson.

But he better do it soon...

Actually if his only reason to become current is to instruct in actual, he should fly the approaches from the right seat so you ought to be able to just do two or three approaches (and a hold) as part of your regular training flights.

Personally, I'd be a bit concerned about his comittment to his IR students if he's unwilling/unable to maintain currency. I know it's not required by the regs, but it still seems inadequate to me, especially when it means he can't introduce you to any actual IMC. IOW I think he ought to do this on his own dime.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Bill:

I know every CFI can't be great at everyting, but if you're actually working on an instrument rating, seems you should be with a CFII that is doing much more than the minimum requirements to stay legal!! If he hasn't done any instrument work in nine months, I'd be asking a lot of questions or flying with someone who has. There could be special circumstances, but, in general, I'd want to be with a guy doing much more than what minimums require.

Don't want to poo pah how important good relationships are, but you are paying and spending a lot of time to learn how to do this; you need to be with someone doing a lot of it--flying it or teaching it under the hood or in actual.

Might be interesting to ask some of the other CFIIs their slant on this issue.

Most CFIIs want to do it all. I have found some are better stick and rudder guys; others are better 'instrument/proceedures' guys. Very few are great at everyting. When I need 'instrument/proceedsures' work--I don't go to the stick and rudder guy!

Dave

 

[Bill]

IOW I think he ought to do this on his own dime.

Oh, when I said I'd ride safety pilot, I meant HE would be paying the airplane rental.

And I hear you on commitment, but like many situations, you have to know the fellow...

It will work out, I'm just eager to get into some actual, seeing we're maybe 6hr from checkride.

Most CFIIs want to do it all. I have found some are better stick and rudder guys; others are better 'instrument/proceedures' guys. Very few are great at everyting. When I need 'instrument/proceedsures' work--I don't go to the stick and rudder guy!

Good observations, good for thought, thanks.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Good observations, good for thought, thanks.

Bill:

I'm not trying to pick. It's natural to get comfortable with someone once you get to know them and like them. That's all great, but needs to be tempered with the fact that you are paying them for this service and how you are initially taught will have everything to do with your basic competence and initial skill level. Once taught one way, sometimes it's very difficult to change that initial habit--all the more reason for it to be right.

I just went through a heck of an experience with getting signed off in a P-Baron. There was a local school with a local instructor approved for insurance. After one lesson, it was clear I would not be going back to him, but had to complete the school to meet insurance requirements. As soon as he signed me off, I went up with a BPPP instructor that was in a completely different league than the other guy to 'learn it right'. First guy was good a stick and rudder guy and not unsafe, but personalities were very different and he extended his instruction demands into areas where I was much more knowledable and where some issues were ownership issues. Not strong on instruments or instrument work at all. Demanded I change things I was taught by some pretty highly skilled guys--I said no way. We did work something out after a discussion about what was safe v. optional and judgmental, but it wasn't the best way for me to be learning in my new plane. Couple places I just drew the line in the sand; like CHT management was one. He adamately claimed CHTs couldn't be kept within a range I demanded. After I showed him they could, he just got quiet. Several other issues like that.

Point is, look through the relationship for competence. Something you said struck a strong cord as an indicator it might not be what it needs to be. You know the instructor much better than I.

Dave

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Good observations, good for thought, thanks.

Bill:

I'm not trying to pick. It's natural to get comfortable with someone once you get to know them and like them. That's all great, but needs to be tempered with the fact that you are paying them for this service and how you are initially taught will have everything to do with your basic competence and initial skill level. Once taught one way, sometimes it's very difficult to change that initial habit--all the more reason for it to be right.

I just went through a heck of an experience with getting signed off in a P-Baron. There was a local school with a local instructor approved for insurance. After one lesson, it was clear I would not be going back to him, but had to complete the school to meet insurance requirements. As soon as he signed me off, I went up with a BPPP instructor that was in a completely different league than the other guy to 'learn it right'. First guy was good a stick and rudder guy and not unsafe, but personalities were very different and he extended his instruction demands into areas where I was much more knowledable and where some issues were ownership issues. Not strong on instruments or instrument work at all.

Demanded I change things I was taught by some pretty highly skilled guys--I said no way. We did work something out after a discussion about what was safe v. optional and judgmental, but it wasn't the best way for me to be learning in my new plane. Couple places I just drew the line in the sand; like CHT management was one. He adamately claimed CHTs couldn't be kept within a range I demanded. After I showed him they could, he just got quiet. Several other issues like that.
Dave

Point is, look through the relationship for competence. Something you said struck a strong cord as an indicator it might not be what it needs to be. You know the instructor much better than I.

Dave

Sounds like you should bill him for the CHT mgmt DUAL and some other things.

I learned a long time ago to amicably learn as much as possible from knowledgable owners who have intimate operational skills with thier aircraft models... that way, they still pay me for my learning !

 

[Bill]

Point is, look through the relationship for competence. Something you said struck a strong cord as an indicator it might not be what it needs to be. You know the instructor much better than I.

I think he is quite competent in "traditional" IFR flying, but not so up to speed with newer GPS technology, but I knew that going in. I also wanted to train and do my checkride in a "traditional" IFR equipped airplane (VOR/GS/LOC/DME/ADF).

I have another instructor lined up after the ride to teach me the fine points of shooting approaches with IFR GPS. This second fellow is quite well versed in GPS use and owns the same equipment I will ultimately fly.

Why didn't I go with guy #2 initially? Guy #2 is in another city 90nm away.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Sounds like you should bill him for the CHT mgmt DUAL and some other things.

I learned a long time ago to amicably learn as much as possible from knowledgable owners who have intimate operational skills with thier aircraft models... that way, they still pay me for my learning !

Dave:

Sounds like you well understand the Owner/instructor relationship. There are a couple CFIs here with your sprit that have benefited a lot from some of the advanced training I've taken. Nothing wrong with a CFI saying; you're really strong here--ahead of me. Let's work on some other stuff. Happens to me all the time.

The BPPP guy and I worked great together. His approch was what do you want to work on. I said, why don't we just fly some approaches and do some VFR short field landings; tell me where you think I need to focus. We did and he did. Great environment where he asked me questions in some areas, and I asked him in other. Great brief when we landed where he reinforced areas. Showed how to compute approach speed to a short field; approach settings.

I was happy to write him a check. Felt it benefited me a lot and I was a safer pilot afterwards.

Can't say that with the former instructor. Even though I did learn stuff about the new plane, I didn't wish to go back to him as a resource: too painful. I'm analytical; he's spontaneous. I read the manual; he just pushed buttons until things finally worked. I adhere to procedures; he responded to traffic calls by approach with: yeah, we got 'em on the fish finder (TIS). GREAT.

You get the drift.

Dave

 

[Bill]

I read the manual; he just pushed buttons until things finally worked.

I'm the same way. My wife and I just got new cell phones, different brand than we had before. First thing I did upon opening the box was read the manual cover to cover before even turning on the power. My wife took the phone and just started punching buttons.

An hour later I had all my contacts in, and had pretty much set everything up to my liking. An hour later, she was still pushing buttons and asking, "Why does it do THAT?" I respond, "Did you read the manual?".

I love saying that, because she never reads any manuals ever...ain't married life grand . Cracks me up every time.

I agree it goes better when you have a CFI that does things the way you do...

 

[Paul Allen]

I'm the same way. My wife and I just got new cell phones, different brand than we had before. First thing I did upon opening the box was read the manual cover to cover before even turning on the power. My wife took the phone and just started punching buttons.

An hour later I had all my contacts in, and had pretty much set everything up to my liking. An hour later, she was still pushing buttons and asking, "Why does it do THAT?" I respond, "Did you read the manual?".

I love saying that, because she never reads any manuals ever...ain't married life grand . Cracks me up every time.

I agree it goes better when you have a CFI that does things the way you do...

When we get new phones (several times now) I go through the same crap. I read and she punches. A couple of days later she asking me how's this thing work. Read the manual. Man does she get ticked.

I went up yesterday and got some great actual. Rain, low ceilings and low vis. I had to shoot an ILS to get on the ground. My CFII is a great instrument pilot and we have been up several times in the past few years when it was at mins. Great experience, but I still don't launch by myself when it's at mins.

 

[Ghery]

I love saying that, because she never reads any manuals ever...

Is she an engineer? I am, and I'm guilty of that quite often.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I'll be more direct than the others. Find a new II!

 

[Bill]

Is she an engineer? I am, and I'm guilty of that quite often.

Funny, I'm the engineer, she's the sales/marketing type.

I'll be more direct than the others. Find a new II!

OK, even if I'm 3hrs or so from checkride? Switch to another guy, fly for another 10-15hrs before getting the ticket? Or get 'er done, and then fly with the other II (thus getting a "second opinion", etc.) to get up to speed on using the 430/55x combo?

 

[gismo]

Funny, I'm the engineer, she's the sales/marketing type.

I'm on the engineer side of this fence, and I usually enjoy reading (well written) equipment manuals from cover to cover. I will admit that I also enjoy the challenge of understanding a new piece of electronic gear without reading the manual first, but once I figure out what I can from pushing buttons, I have to go through the documentation to see what I missed. My wife is also a marketeer type and AFaIK she thinks that manuals are just funny shaped packing material.

[/quote]OK, even if I'm 3hrs or so from checkride? Switch to another guy, fly for another 10-15hrs before getting the ticket? Or get 'er done, and then fly with the other II (thus getting a "second opinion", etc.) to get up to speed on using the 430/55x combo?[/quote]

If you're that close there's certainly no point in switching, and from your earlier posts, you've got a pretty good match with your current CFII in most other respects. If I were you, I'd simply finish up with him, take the checkride, and then find another CFII with plenty of recent actual IMC/ real world IFR experience and ask him to teach you the practical stuff not covered when preparing for the practical test. Just getting current enough to fly with you in IMC isn't going to give your CFII the kind of knowledge that someone who flies the system regularly on trips that actually go somewhere will have. Your instructor has probably given you good basic IR skills which would be the foundation that a well rounded IR pilot / CFII can build on top of.

 

[Bill]

I will admit that I also enjoy the challenge of understanding a new piece of electronic gear without reading the manual first,

With most consumer stuff I will do some button pushing, but then go and RTFM cover to cover anyway. Most consumer stuff has been idiot proofed to some degree.

My trouble is at work, we get a new piece of equipment (latest example, a flying probe electrical tester) and some manager puts someone on that equipment that doesn't know the slightest thing about it, and they proceed to push and click merrily away. Then, no suprise, the device ends up being totally FUBAR.

Then, I get called in (not my job, BTW), to go and "fix" the problem. In this instance, I just dive into the books, and then go and start fixing the problem. As long as I have books, this goes *fairly* well, but can be lengthy and time consuming. What cheeses me to all getout is we'd be so much better ahead if we'd just RTFM from the start, train, and not have to "fix" things.

Those jobs are just annoying. The fun ones are when you get called in to "fix" some 20yr old system, when no manuals are available, and the guy that knew how it worked left the company 6 months ago, and oh BTW, it is holding up production.

then find another CFII with plenty of recent actual IMC/ real world IFR experience and ask him to teach you the practical stuff not covered when preparing for the practical test. Just getting current enough to fly with you in IMC isn't going to give your CFII the kind of knowledge that someone who flies the system regularly on trips that actually go somewhere will have.

I think my current instructor is quite well versed in real world IFR, from both sides of the system. (flying for 40 years, and is retired ATC) He's just not presently current, he's retired and 67 years old, and ornery as can be.

The guy I'll get with after the ride to learn shooting GPS approaches with the Garmin stuff is a retired 20,000hr ATP, flew jumbos transatlantic. I look forward to learning from him.

 

[Toby]

The discussion about manuals is interesting and revealing. I'm definitely not the button-pushing type. I like to read the manual cover to cover and get the whole picture before I discover any random abilities of any piece of equipment, whether it's a new iron or a coffeemaker or a Loran. I like to unpack and identify all the parts, and not put anything together or start it up without knowing how each piece functions and fits in with the whole. My three daughters get very impatient with me since I have to go through all this before getting started. They'll grab a new cell phone out of my hand, punch buttons, and abracadabra, my opening message is up. Then I get annoyed and have to skip to that part of the manual first, to see how to do it myself.

 

[Bill]

I like to unpack and identify all the parts, and not put anything together or start it up without knowing how each piece functions and fits in with the whole.

Ha! That's great. When we get some new complicated toy or whatnot for Holly (our 3 year old), I do the same thing. Grab the instructions, inventory all the parts, then proceed to assemble per instructions.

Sherry, OTOH, just grabs parts that look like they go together and starts to it. Now, recognizing our different styles, if its something not too complex (or expensive if broken/assembled incorrectly), I just leave the room and let her have at it, knowing full well I may have to come back later help. But, she does well most of the time. Something complex or very expensive? I pretty much choose that battle and we do it per instructions.

As you said, an interesting look into how different folks minds work!

 

[DoubleD]

Back to the original thread topic of the non-current CFII. One point not mentioned so far is that to operate under IFR (Rules, not Conditions), you must be rated and current. Since neither of you is both, you can't legally file IFR. I can't imagine doing the instrument rating without filing IFR.

 

[jdwatson]

OK, even if I'm 3hrs or so from checkride? Switch to another guy, fly for another 10-15hrs before getting the ticket? Or get 'er done, and then fly with the other II (thus getting a "second opinion", etc.) to get up to speed on using the 430/55x combo?

Bill,
Do you feel that you can fly to the PTS standards ? If so, get it done. You can get extra instruction after you get your ticket to become closer to perfect. I seek out instrument instruction every few months. I probably booked about 15hrs of dual immediately after my checkride, just to hone the things that I wasn't satisfied in my performance.

 

[The rogue]

I feel your pain. When I was in school getting my Instrument, the CFI-I would hit you with a chart in the simulator if you "just didn't get it".

Nothing like sweating out a fake approach and getting hit on the head to get you "Motivated, motivated, motivated, SIR!" He took a concept that was difficult to understand, and made it more difficult.

I think that guy actually had to go through some anger management courses.

But, back on topic, yes, I did want to smack him in the head (but not with a chart).

 

[gismo]

Back to the original thread topic of the non-current CFII. One point not mentioned so far is that to operate under IFR (Rules, not Conditions), you must be rated and current. Since neither of you is both, you can't legally file IFR. I can't imagine doing the instrument rating without filing IFR.

Good point as this ought to make the IFR x/c somewhat problematic.

part of 61.65:
"includes at least one cross-country flight in a powered-lift that is performed under IFR and consists of—"

 

[Bill]

part of 61.65:
"includes at least one cross-country flight in a powered-lift that is performed under IFR and consists of—"

Could be a sticky wicket that

 

[Bones]

Hang in there Bill! Try not to **** your CFII off, not good for anybody. I did a lot of II work at one time and it was difficult for me to stay current, I had to make it a point to schedule the airplane to get it done several times even though I was flying 50rhs a month of II instruction. I'm sure you respect the fact that he is setting a good example by not pencil whipping his currency, although its not nessarily professional to not be able to deliver a service that your client requests. I know you are eager...hang in there and try not to EVER Get In A Hurry...it can get you hurt. You'll have that ticket in no time and over the next year you will get tons of experience!