Eventual Jet Transition, KING AIR 350i or PC-12 NG

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by OdenPilot, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. OdenPilot

    OdenPilot Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oden
    I'm not looking to start any heated discussions about which plane is better. I'm looking for help in my goal to eventually get to jet operations.

    I am a private pilot with instrument & multi-engine ratings. Currently sitting at 375 hours. I'm looking to purchase either a KA 350i or PC-12 NG by the end of the year. Here's my question: Is it better to have multi-turbine time over single-turbine? I'll use a mentor pilot for a while on both, and I realize the 350 will require a type rating.

    Phenom 300 will eventually be flown, and it's multi-engine'd, as you know. Would KA be the preference because I can build significant amounts of twin turbine time before transitioning the 300? Or does it not really matter? I'm not going into an 121 or 135 job, this will all be 91 flying.
     
  2. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Heywood Jablowme
    Probably easier for you to get insured in a PC-12
     
  3. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    192
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    I would ask your insurer what they would rather see before they bite the bullet and eventually insure you on a Phenom.

    From a piloting perspective you will have a higher workload with a twin turboprop than with a PC12. In return you build more multi and prove you can handle the workload. Personally, I’d built multi piston sufficiently first, then PC12, then Phenom.
     
  4. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    12,782
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    You’re going to purchase one of these two aircraft and then fund all of the flying yourself to build time? Must be nice to have an artesian well!

    Good luck!
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  5. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    I don't believe he is a time builder, from the way I read it he wants the plane for personal use.
     
  6. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I think you should hire a full time pilot and be on the crew with them and just buy the jet now. You can be the SIC now and take on more responsibility as you gain experience.
     
  7. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I second the suggestion to ask your insurer what they would prefer to see.
     
  8. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,050
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    hindsight2020
    Agreed, he should do so, my insurance premium thanks him :D
     
  9. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,008
    Location:
    Kixd
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam
    This is probably the best suggestion that I have seen in a while. Bonus is, you'll have hundreds of hours as SIC when you go for that type rating, and you may actually get insured in it... Assuming that is important to you.
     
  10. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I think it makes the most sense. All the money spent on the turboprop can be used for pilot salary.

    Plus all the time flying sic in the net is really good time for learning to fly the jet because you’re in the jet...

    just don’t go cheap... hire an experienced pilot.
     
  11. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    371
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Geosync
    Oh hell just get the Phenom now and pay a pro to fly with you until you're insurable.
     
  12. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    2,008
    Location:
    Kixd
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sam
    I don't know why anyone would think stepping up to anything else first would net out as cheaper anyway? What are you going to fly the interim step? 200 hours, 500hrs?
     
  13. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Sounds like a question a low time pilot would ask and hopefully some good ideas get floated here to keep them safe and efficient in their aviation journey.

    I know I’ve asked much dumber questions over the years I’ve been flying :)
     
  14. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,535
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    I’d just go get the Phenom now... for those saying fly a piston twin first... give me a break.
     
  15. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    192
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    If I’m a passenger in this private pilot’s Phenom I’d have more warm fuzzies if he had more overall experience under his belt first. So there is something gained in more ME piston or ME turbine time. Flying anything complex cross country, IMC, etc etc. He hasn’t even broken 400 hours yet.

    The original question appeared to be centered around building experience and cost wasn’t mentioned. Surely the cost differences in the choices may play into this, but that’s not the way I read it.
     
  16. texasclouds

    texasclouds Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,378
    Location:
    Bryan, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I’d go with a DC-3, personally. Style over speed.
     
    MrAnderson likes this.
  17. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3,535
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dans2992
    I’m pretty sure cost is not a factor.... ;)
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I think that is plenty of experience to sit right seat. Lots of people with less have done it.
     
  19. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    192
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    Sitting right seat as SIC, watching and monitoring/helping the PIC is helpful, but it’s different than acting/flying as PIC. I think we can agree on that.
     
  20. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Sure. How is that relevant?
     
  21. TrueCourse

    TrueCourse Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2019
    Messages:
    192
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TrueCourse
    Maybe I misunderstood your post. I’ll end it with this. I’d rather build time as ME piston or ME turboprop PIC for more valuable experience then go into the Phenom, rather than going straight into that right seat now as sub 400 hour pilot.
     
  22. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Ok. I understand what you are saying. I disagree with you. That doesn’t mean I think you are wrong. Just that I think there are more reasonable and more efficient ways to safely reach the goal discussed. Doesn’t mean I’m right either. I just have a different opinion.

    I’ll just put this out there for thought... I was hired to fly my first jet at approximately 700 hours total time. I had less than 15 hours of multi engine time. I didn’t fly a piston twin other than for the initial rating until after I had my third type rating.

    I was a 5000 hour ATP with multiple type ratings and had a really hard time getting insured in a baron because I still only had less than 15 hours in a piston twin. I’m not special. At least not on the right side of the curve. I do fly for a living so I am kinda stupid.

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my post. I’m suggesting that the OP buy the jet and hire a highly qualified captain to train him over a multi year period of time to become a PIC in the jet.

    The process of becoming a PIC is a lot less painful when there is another PIC in the right seat. All those millions of dollars spent flying around alone in a turbo prop can probably buy a decade of direct mentoring in the aircraft that actually meets the mission with the benefit of a pro watching to catch the epic stupid before it happens.

    Once again. Just my opinion based on my experience. Not the gospel.
     
  23. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Just like anything, it can be done successfully either way. It just depends on the effort the individual puts into it.

    I train a lot of 1000-hour pilots into jets. Most of them are successful, but they also mostly understand that training doesn’t end when they get the type rating.

    I commented to my wife not long ago that it’s a good thing today’s pilot market didn’t exist 30 years ago...if I had gotten into jets that early, I’d be an entirely different pilot, and I don’t think it would be a “good different” for the most part.
     
  24. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    I agree.

    I also think you should give yourself more credit. Our base attitudes towards this business have a lot more influence than I think we recognize at times.
     
  25. KSCessnaDriver

    KSCessnaDriver Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    C62
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KSCessnaDriver
    I got turned loose, single pilot, in a B1900 with a grand total of 650ish hours in an airplane (plus some airship time). I didn't kill myself, but the previous 300 hours of flying a PA31 made it a hell of a lot easier.

    If you want to do the step up game, I'd just buy a bigger piston twin, get a few hundred hours, then move up to a Jet-A burner. Don't buy 2 Jet-A burners.
     
  26. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I think it’s more about the things that I think are important but I really wouldn’t have had the opportunity to learn. The things that make me a crusty old fart. ;)
     
  27. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Oh. Nothing to prevent those mistakes just because you’re flying a jet lol. They just happen faster :)
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  28. Bill

    Bill Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,757
    Location:
    Southeast Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    This page intentionally left blank
    My biggest question is if the OP will ever return to this thread again.
     
    Groundpounder and texasclouds like this.
  29. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,031
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Heywood Jablowme
    I would suspect he was a troll, people looking to spend that much money don't ask questions like that on a message board, they ask actual professionals.
     
    Rein Hart and Cervieres like this.
  30. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Maybe he didn’t get the answer he wanted from actual professionals.
     
    texasclouds likes this.
  31. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Ha. You aren’t a professional?
     
    texasclouds likes this.
  32. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    257
    Location:
    Ogden Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rockymountain
    Does sound Trollish or extremely naive. I don’t think insurers are insuring P300 level aircraft single owner pilot these days. Especially without Tremendous PIC experience in that level of aircraft. And even then, from what I hear the insurance rates are eye watering. I think some have left the market downsizing, or transitioning to two pilot pro flown. I just got a letter for my insurer yesterday telling me to expect a 25% rate increase, with me being an ATP with 2000 hours time in type and no claims. They’re also saying they might drop my liability limits. These are awesome times ;-). The single engine turbines are still insurable, for now. I shouldn’t complain, dollar for dollar my insurance rates are still better than my piston days. ;-)
     
  33. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I may be a professional, but I’m not an actual professional.
     
    Tarheelpilot likes this.
  34. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    3,420
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    There’s a difference between being paid to fly and flying professionally. :)
     
    MauleSkinner likes this.
  35. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,657
    Location:
    North Carolina once again.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Ding ding. We have a winner. Dave has broken the code.
     
  36. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2020
    Messages:
    156
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Antione
    Sort of had the same thought. If King Air 350 or Phenom money is available, hiring an aviation consultant is pocket change.
     
  37. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,576
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Maybe, but just like all of us, wealthy people can be a bit illogical about where they will and won’t spend their pocket change.
     
    KA550 likes this.
  38. Cervieres

    Cervieres Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2020
    Messages:
    156
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Antione
    Illogical is a very kind way to describe basing a $5-10 million dollar purchase on input from some anonymous message board posts. Not that it matters. If this is a real post, insurance companies won’t touch single pilot turbine ops with a 375 hour pilot.
     
  39. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,685
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Sure they will. There are insurers, for the right amount of money, that will basically insure anything. Just depends on what the client is willing to pay.
     
    Tarheelpilot likes this.
  40. MrAnderson

    MrAnderson Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MrAnderson
    they’re making good deals on the A380’s right now. Why settle for a phenom?
     
    skier likes this.