Erasing a hard drive

bigred177

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bigred
I have to take my laptop to BB to have them look at the HDD under warranty. I need to do a system restore anyway before I take it in and I was wondering what the best way to make data irrecoverable is. I don't want the BB goons to be able to bring anything on my HDD back. I heard of an application called Secure Erase, but it has to be launched from DOS and so far I can't get it to work even once I get into DOS. Does anyone know how to make that one work or the next best way to keep the data gone short of breaking the drive?
 
The only way to make it completely, totally, unretrievably secure is with a hammer...
 
Sheesh. If you just do a full (not quick) format of the drive and use the restore disk to put it back to factory configuration, it'll be beyond the capabilities (or interest) of anyone working for Geek Squad to get to your data.

BTW, if possible, they will need it to boot to really work on it, and you'll have the original disks to set it up. They might not have them.
 
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I hear the CIA only considers it complete hd destruction after the harddisk has been ground up into a powder to a specific astm particle size grading, followed by immersion in an acid bath.

I guess you could reuse it...after reassimilating it into a hd from its raw materials!
 
There is software that meets DoD specs for secure erasing (7 times writing 0s and 1s and then a final pass of random numbers). But one pass of fully writing over every sector of the disk is good enough for techniques short of electron microscopy.

All a quick format does is wipe out the master File Allocation Table (or similar file system function) that tells the OS where all the files are in terms of starting and ending sectors on the disk. Then any geek which low level tools can read in all the sectors one by one which still have your data.

A complete format should wipe over every sector of the disk.

Norton makes a secure erase tool, I believe.
 
I have used BCWipe in the past.
of course I've used a drill press in the past too. . .
 
So what is next step short of that leaving the drive still usable?
There are two levels of erase security. A simple full up format (not the quickie) will rewrite every sector on the drive and that will prevent any future access of the original data as long as the drive isn't disassembled. The next level (which has various degrees of difficulty and security) will prevent someone who has removed the magnetic media from the drive for reading via some pretty esoteric means. In your case (Geek Squad snoops) formatting will be quite sufficient.
 
Yep, I've used Norton diskwipe as well. Not acceptable for most of my clients that have data security standards in place, but honestly, it's what I used on a couple of personal workstations I retired/recycled. I still have a stack of disks that need the degauzing and hammer erase performed, tho.
 
Don't know if it will work for you but I use DBAN with good results. I run it twice...just because:

http://www.dban.org/

Seconded. Dan's Boot and Nuke

It's free, and it utilizes both or either/or (your choice) of a multitude of wiping algorithm schemes.

(DoD audited ones, Academic-created ones... who do you trust more? GRIN...)

The download is an ISO image that you burn to CD-ROM/DVD and boot from. You can wipe internal drives, USB drives, whatever... just don't select the wrong one if you have multiple drives.

(Hint: Just unplug the one you don't want wiped. If DBAN can't see it, it certainly can't destroy it.)

Frankly most of the algorithms are overkill for most folks. But I just set it to one of the medium-level algo's, and go to bed. Drive all wiped and done in the morning.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it's more difficult to erase (format or wipe) the only hard drive in the system since the operating system expects that drive to contain several files when running. One solution is to boot from CDROM and run a program from that. The Windoz install CD contains a format program which will work for this. I think it's in the "repair" option.
 
A complete format should wipe over every sector of the disk.
Disagree.

I do agree with re-imaging the disk and moving on with your life. If BB finds something that you inadvertently had on the disk, legally there are issues with probable cause as well as chain of custody.

If you're paranoid, BC Wipe once was the defacto standard for secure erasure. It's been superceeded. I don't recall the the name of the current "go-faster" proggie.
 
Disagree.
Are you saying that previously written data can be retrieved from a HD that's been subject to a successful "full" format without disassembling the drive, or just that said data could be recovered with extreme measures applied to the media after removing it from the drive? If the latter, I agree too but if the former please explain why this would be possible and/or how it's done.
 
Are you saying that previously written data can be retrieved from a HD that's been subject to a successful "full" format without disassembling the drive, or just that said data could be recovered with extreme measures applied to the media after removing it from the drive? If the latter, I agree too but if the former please explain why this would be possible and/or how it's done.

My understanding is that a full format reads each sector to make sure it's not damaged, where a quick format simply trusts that everything is readable.

I don't think the format procedure writes anything but the directory structure.
 
legally there are issues with probable cause as well as chain of custody.

Only law enforcement needs probable cause. Joe citizen can bring his findings to the police, and it can be used against you, as long as he wasn't acting as an agent of the police.
 
Single wipe passes of a disk (so called "full format") are recoverable with special tools.

Data recovery shops have them. They're not outrageously expensive, but not something you find lying around, either.

They are inexpensive enough that organized crime can certainly afford them.

Tools like DBAN can do multiple-wipe passes with random data which effectively makes it such that only an expert with an electron microscope might stand a chance of recovering anything. You boot from the CD so there's nothing sacred on the drives in or plugged into the system. They're just attached drives waiting to be wiped.

As someone else mentioned, in the real world of government intelligence, military, and others, only complete physical destruction of the drive will do. Hard to recover data from a fine metallic powder.

It's back to the old questions of "security". How valuable is the information to someone else, and how difficult do you want to make getting it? If all that was ever on the disk was photos of your Aunt's dog, assuming no geotagging of the photos (your Aunt's address could be valuable if she's uber-rich, and secluded, for example), then a single-pass wipe is certainly sufficient.

If it's your main system disk, nuke it. Overnight. With DBAN. Or similar.

If it's your financial data, passwords and what not, nuke it and then take it to the range for target practice. Real "holes" in the data then!
 
Seconded. Dan's Boot and Nuke

It's free, and it utilizes both or either/or (your choice) of a multitude of wiping algorithm schemes.

(DoD audited ones, Academic-created ones... who do you trust more? GRIN...)

The download is an ISO image that you burn to CD-ROM/DVD and boot from. You can wipe internal drives, USB drives, whatever... just don't select the wrong one if you have multiple drives.

(Hint: Just unplug the one you don't want wiped. If DBAN can't see it, it certainly can't destroy it.)

Frankly most of the algorithms are overkill for most folks. But I just set it to one of the medium-level algo's, and go to bed. Drive all wiped and done in the morning.

I've been attempting to run dban. I burned the ISO to the disk and can successfully boot to it. When I tell it to run, it says its looking for usb hardware or something and when it finishes that, it hangs up and has some text "*something*(filesys)" or something like that where *something* is text I can't remember.

Google says that is caused by my media card reader messing things up and to disable it in the BIOS but I can't find an option to disable it. My laptop is an ASUS G72GX, if anyone knows how I might go about getting around that I'd appreciate the insight.
 
And thanks for all of the discussion, I don't know much about how the hardware operates on computers and it's interesting to learn about some of it.
 
Next time use "privacy mode" or whatever its called.
 
coaxial

I actually had a conversation about data wiping with a known expert in data security forensics. This is what told me about wipe(1) and all the other "write over the data lots of times" advice:

The origin of that advice was back in the 1980s, and it was based on actual research using disks that were commercially available at the time. After overwriting the data on the disk, successive reads of those blocks would result in reads that weren't always the data that was overwritten. For example, if you originally had one hundred 1s, and you over wrote them with one hundred 0s, when you read that data back, you'd occasional get some 1s in it. Read it a second time, and you would get 1s back in different places. This meant that if you read over written blocks enough times you could use statistics to figure out what was originally there.

So why did this work? Magnetic disks store the bits on them by setting magnetic domains from north to south and vis versa. (Say north=1 and south=0.) However, the servo motors of the time that positioned read-write head on the disk weren't very accurate. To accommodate the low tolerances of the motors, and due to semiconductor technology at the time, the area of each disk that was needed to contain a bit was fairly large. This meant that the physical bit on the disk was actually larger than the read-write head. When the head was moved back and forth across the disk, it would land in different places relative to the center of the physical bit. Reposition the head enough times, and you could figure out what parts of each physical bit weren't over written. (It's the same idea as figuring out what words are written after they're scratched out once with an ink pen.) To avoid defeat this attack, it was recommended that all data be over written seven times. Each time you would be writing data to a slightly different place on the physical bits, and so you'd eventually cover enough of the physical bit that it was impossible to piece together the original data. (Just like scratching out a word seven or eight times makes it unreadable.)

Now enters uninformed speculation. Since technology has gotten better for us, it is reasonable to think that attackers have better technology too. Therefore, if seven times was good, then 24 times must be better!

But is it? Actually no. Technology has improved. Servo motors have gotten more accurate. Magnetic domains have shrunk. Today's magnetic disks are at such a density that the read-write heads and the size of physical bits are the same. This means, that if you overwrite your data once, it's gone. Completely gone. There's no evidence that repeated reads like what was done in the 1980s can recover it. If you overwrite it more than once, you're just wasting your time.

Also, this overwrite your data for protection only works for magnetic disks. Flash drives use a completely different technology, that actually makes true overwrites difficult.

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/14/paranoia-and-deletio.html#comments

So there.
 
I hear the CIA only considers it complete hd destruction after the harddisk has been ground up into a powder to a specific astm particle size grading, followed by immersion in an acid bath.

I guess you could reuse it...after reassimilating it into a hd from its raw materials!

Grinding it up and burning it was the manner I heard for declassifying a disk drive that had once held classified data. I wouldn't be too worried about the guys at BB. They had to send a disk crash to a lab in Kentucky to get my data back off a 500 mb drive. Not doing those backups cost me about $1,700. The guys at BB were useless.
 
I've been attempting to run dban. I burned the ISO to the disk and can successfully boot to it. When I tell it to run, it says its looking for usb hardware or something and when it finishes that, it hangs up and has some text "*something*(filesys)" or something like that where *something* is text I can't remember.

Google says that is caused by my media card reader messing things up and to disable it in the BIOS but I can't find an option to disable it. My laptop is an ASUS G72GX, if anyone knows how I might go about getting around that I'd appreciate the insight.

Can you just unplug it temporarily? I had a card reader do that once too. It's looking for cards to mount them as drives.
 
So there.

Interesting stuff. So how do you erase a flash drive securely then? Destroy it?

Grinding it up and burning it was the manner I heard for declassifying a disk drive that had once held classified data. I wouldn't be too worried about the guys at BB. They had to send a disk crash to a lab in Kentucky to get my data back off a 500 mb drive. Not doing those backups cost me about $1,700. The guys at BB were useless.

I don't imagine there would be a problem even if I had not done anything, but I have heard horror stories in the past. Also, if they do end up having to replace the drive, I don't know what hands the drive will fall into after that.

Can you just unplug it temporarily? I had a card reader do that once too. It's looking for cards to mount them as drives.

I looked it up online and to unplug the card reader I would have to completely disassemble the computer to get at the motherboard. So I ended up just pulling out the HD and putting it into my desktop with an extra SATA cable I had and running it from there. Don't know why I didn't think to do that in the beginning.

Thanks for the help and information guys.
 
Forgive my computer illiteracy, but if the manufacturer can deliver a new hard drive which is blank, why can we use that tech to clean the HDD we have?
 
Forgive my computer illiteracy, but if the manufacturer can deliver a new hard drive which is blank, why can we use that tech to clean the HDD we have?
huh? The drive the manufacturer sends hasn't ever had any real data of importance written to it.
 
huh? The drive the manufacturer sends hasn't ever had any real data of importance written to it.

Isn't it a magnetic device ? degauss it and re magnetize it.
 
yeah, bulk degauser erases it well, but places I've worked still insist on physical destruction after degausing - belt and suspenders
 
What does simply deleting the file do? does it still stay in the hard drive, after emptying the recycle bin?
 
What does simply deleting the file do? does it still stay in the hard drive, after emptying the recycle bin?
On most file systems it simply marks that space as being available but leaves the file sitting in that space. If another program saves a file it may overwrite that space or it may not.

Just deleting the file, on most file systems, simply makes it to where you can't see it anymore but it'd be easy to recover with some software provided it doesn't get overwritten by something else.
 
What does simply deleting the file do? does it still stay in the hard drive, after emptying the recycle bin?
Deleting a file with most file systems simply changes the directory information to indicate that the space occupied by the file is available for re-use and that the file "no longer exists". The data will still be there albeit potentially in several disjoint pieces until some other file write operation puts new data on top of the old.
 
Yep, I've used Norton diskwipe as well. Not acceptable for most of my clients that have data security standards in place, but honestly, it's what I used on a couple of personal workstations I retired/recycled. I still have a stack of disks that need the degauzing and hammer erase performed, tho.

Just wondering what standards they have? Norton DiskWipe (if set to run 7 passes of 1's and 7 of 0's) meets NSA standards. I wouldn't think there would be companies that require a higher standard to assure data destruction.
 
Just wondering what standards they have? Norton DiskWipe (if set to run 7 passes of 1's and 7 of 0's) meets NSA standards. I wouldn't think there would be companies that require a higher standard to assure data destruction.

The 7 Passes was a DoD Standard, and it's quite old. It's still good but many outfits want complete physical destruction for the most sensitive stuff, especially in the intelligence arena. Several commercial firms take similar precautions - as destruction is a guarantee while overwriting "however many" times is only a probability game depending on the state of the art of data recovery.
 
a number of companies in the financial industry will accept nothing less than physical destruction. A couple of DOE sites were the same way back about 12 years or so.
 
The 7 Passes was a DoD Standard, and it's quite old. It's still good but many outfits want complete physical destruction for the most sensitive stuff, especially in the intelligence arena. Several commercial firms take similar precautions - as destruction is a guarantee while overwriting "however many" times is only a probability game depending on the state of the art of data recovery.

a number of companies in the financial industry will accept nothing less than physical destruction. A couple of DOE sites were the same way back about 12 years or so.

The policy where I work is that no disc drives leave the company. I don't know what we do with them, but complete distruction isn't out of the question.
 
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