Entering (and exiting) Class B...

[gcd89]

I've got my solo XC coming up, and I'm taking off fro KPIE which is Class B airspace.

When I'm coming back what should I say when I'm trying to come back in? I seem to have forgotten the correct speech. Is it...

"St. Pete Tower, 25244, 10 miles north requesting landing" or am I forgetting something? When should I request permission to enter the airspace?

And whnen leaving do they always tell you "...freq change approved"?

I haven't done many XC's so I forget the protocol...

 

[ajstoner21]

Are you going to be flying into the overlying Class B or just flying under it into the KPIE class D?

 

[Mike I]

Greg D, did you get your specific endorsement for flying in Class B airspace?

You're forgetting the ATIS code. "St Pete Tower, 25244 10 north, inbound, Charlie" should take care of that. You may not be given Bravo clearance until you're closer to the airspace border. Make sure you hear the magic words "Cleared into Class Bravo" before crossing the solid blue line on your chart. If you don't hear those words, ask the controller to confirm you're cleared in. You'll be given a squawk as well.

When leaving, you'll either be told "25244, frequency change approved, squawk VFR" as you're about to depart the Class B, or you can request it with "25244, request checkout" or "25244 departing airspace".

Perhaps someone else can clarify... but I've never flown in Class B without being given a discrete squawk. Mental note... before entering the B, get a squawk and hear the magic words "cleared into class bravo" or similar.


Edit: Saw that KPIE lies under the shelf. If you're inbound below 1200', you won't be in the Bravo at all unless you're coming from the northeast. Plenty of ways to avoid it if you want. If that's the case, then ignore all of what I wrote above...it's just a Class D airport, as long as you stay under 1200' and try to stay west of the field. That being the case, the callup will still be the same. "St Pete Tower, 25244, 8 west, inbound with Tango" or whatever the ATIS might be.

 

[jason]

I've got my solo XC coming up, and I'm taking off fro KPIE which is Class B airspace.

When I'm coming back what should I say when I'm trying to come back in? I seem to have forgotten the correct speech. Is it...

"St. Pete Tower, 25244, 10 miles north requesting landing" or am I forgetting something? When should I request permission to enter the airspace?

And whnen leaving do they always tell you "...freq change approved"?

I haven't done many XC's so I forget the protocol...

KPIE isn't class B. It's class D under a class B shelf.

The bottom line is...

1. who you're calling
2. who you are
3. where you are
4. what you want

"St. Pete tower, Cessna 12345, 15 miles north, two thousand, inbound with x-ray"

There isn't really anything wrong with how you phrased it, it would just seem a little awkward. As a general rule, you don't need to "request" things that they're planning on giving you. If you tell them that you're landing, they'll give you an expected runway and tell you what kind of pattern to fly...or just clear you to land.

The word request would be more like them telling you to enter left base for 17L and you would respond "Cessna 12345 request 17R".

As a point of clarification, all that it takes to enter class C or D airspace is two way radio communication. If you get them to read back your callsign, you're cleared into the airspace. Class B, on the other hand, requires an explicit clearance into the airspace before entry.

 

[gcd89]

KPIE isn't class B. It's class D under a class B shelf.

The bottom line is...

1. who you're calling
2. who you are
3. where you are
4. what you want

"St. Pete tower, Cessna 12345, 15 miles north, two thousand, inbound with x-ray"

There isn't really anything wrong with how you phrased it, it would just seem a little awkward. As a general rule, you don't need to "request" things that they're planning on giving you. If you tell them that you're landing, they'll give you an expected runway and tell you what kind of pattern to fly...or just clear you to land.

The word request would be more like them telling you to enter left base for 17L and you would respond "Cessna 12345 request 17R".

As a point of clarification, all that it takes to enter class C or D airspace is two way radio communication. If you get them to read back your callsign, you're cleared into the airspace. Class B, on the other hand, requires an explicit clearance into the airspace before entry.

So the core part is class D and the outside "ring" is B or vice versa?

 

[jason]

So the core part is class D and the outside "ring" is B or vice versa?

The class B airspace is shaped like an upside down wedding cake. The core of it goes to the surface.

KPIE is class D airspace sitting under the shelf of the class B airspace. Imagine it right where the numbers 80/15 are in this picture. So, as long as you're under the shelf...you are NOT in the class B airspace...and the only thing that you're dealing with is the class D airspace to get into and out of KPIE.

 

[jason]

I would seriously consider sitting down with your CFI and talking through all of this airspace with him. It seems like you're missing a couple of basics. Understanding this is pretty important. Especially when you consider where you're based.

 

[Palmpilot]

When leaving, you'll either be told "25244, frequency change approved, squawk VFR" as you're about to depart the Class B, or you can request it with "25244, request checkout" or "25244 departing airspace".

And if they don't tell you "frequency change approved," it's not necessary to request it. You can just change frequencies as soon as you exit the class D airspace.

AIM 4-3-2a excerpt:

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."​

 

[gcd89]

Edit: Saw that KPIE lies under the shelf. If you're inbound below 1200', you won't be in the Bravo at all unless you're coming from the northeast.

OOOO. This sentence pretty much cleared up the entire misunderstanding about me being confused regarding airspace

However, the communications issue is still open

 

[Palmpilot]

OOOO. This sentence pretty much cleared up the entire misunderstanding about me being confused regarding airspace

However, the communications issue is still open

What issue remains regarding communications?

 

[Sac Arrow]

As a point of clarification, all that it takes to enter class C or D airspace is two way radio communication. If you get them to read back your callsign, you're cleared into the airspace. Class B, on the other hand, requires an explicit clearance into the airspace before entry.

Just to further clarify - this came up in another thread, but there is a "gotcha" about two way radio communication for entering Class D - you have to be talking to the correct ATC facillity, which can be the tower, and it also may or may not be the approach controlling the surrounding airspace. In all of the Class D airports in my area, establishing communications with ATC (i.e. being on flight following) is sufficient to be cleared into Class D and I won't usually be handed off to the tower until I'm inside the airspace - and I won't be handed off at all for a transit while on FF. It is my understanding that there are some Class D airports where ATC does NOT provide air traffic control services within the Class D, and if they do not coordinate entry with the tower and hand you off prior to entering Class D, you have busted Class D airspace.

FAR 91.129:
"(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

 

[COFlyBoy]

Remember you cannot get Class B clearance from St. Pete tower (They don't own the Class B. You'll have to get clearance from Tampa App/Dep if you actually want to enter the Class B.

I'm with everyone elso though. Avoid it on your XC until you've specifically worked on it with your CFI. Busting Bravo is not a good idea.

 

[EdFred]

Remember you cannot get Class B clearance from St. Pete tower (They don't own the Class B. You'll have to get clearance from Tampa App/Dep if you actually want to enter the Class B.

I'm with everyone elso though. Avoid it on your XC until you've specifically worked on it with your CFI. Busting Bravo is not a good idea.

Unless they have a LoA in place between the facilities. Also, for IFR you don't get clearance directly from the controlling agency.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I would seriously consider sitting down with your CFI and talking through all of this airspace with him. It seems like you're missing a couple of basics. Understanding this is pretty important. Especially when you consider where you're based.

No offense to the OP, forums like POA are a great place to learn stuff, but what struck me immediately after reading the post was that this was really an issue to bring up with your CFI.

 

[Palmpilot]

Just to further clarify - this came up in another thread, but there is a "gotcha" about two way radio communication for entering Class D - you have to be talking to the correct ATC facillity, which can be the tower, and it also may or may not be the approach controlling the surrounding airspace. In all of the Class D airports in my area, establishing communications with ATC (i.e. being on flight following) is sufficient to be cleared into Class D and I won't usually be handed off to the tower until I'm inside the airspace - and I won't be handed off at all for a transit while on FF. It is my understanding that there are some Class D airports where ATC does NOT provide air traffic control services within the Class D, and if they do not coordinate entry with the tower and hand you off prior to entering Class D, you have busted Class D airspace.

FAR 91.129:
"(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

And if you're in doubt about it, you can ask the controller you're talking to if you need to be talking to the tower.

 

[Matthew]

No offense to the OP, forums like POA are a great place to learn stuff, but what struck me immediately after reading the post was that this was really an issue to bring up with your CFI.

uhhh - yeah. Doesn't a student pilot need a CFI endorsement to operate in class-B anyway?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just to further clarify - this came up in another thread, but there is a "gotcha" about two way radio communication for entering Class D - you have to be talking to the correct ATC facillity, which can be the tower, and it also may or may not be the approach controlling the surrounding airspace. In all of the Class D airports in my area, establishing communications with ATC (i.e. being on flight following) is sufficient to be cleared into Class D and I won't usually be handed off to the tower until I'm inside the airspace - and I won't be handed off at all for a transit while on FF. It is my understanding that there are some Class D airports where ATC does NOT provide air traffic control services within the Class D, and if they do not coordinate entry with the tower and hand you off prior to entering Class D, you have busted Class D airspace.

FAR 91.129:
"(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

Don't forget the flip-side:

==============================
FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
==============================
If you are transiting class D with flight following, it's the TRACON's responsibility to arrange the transit clearance, not yours.

 

[COFlyBoy]

If you are transiting class D with flight following, it's the TRACON's responsibility to arrange the transit clearance, not yours.

Wow, I did not know they were supposed to do this. Denver Center doesn't coordiante with Denver Approach to provide Class B transit for VFR bugsmashers.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Don't forget the flip-side:

==============================
FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
==============================
If you are transiting class D with flight following, it's the TRACON's responsibility to arrange the transit clearance, not yours.

Understood - hopefully the issue is more of an academic one than a real one, but the one scenario where this occurred is when the pilot was on FF over Class D with a 2,500 foot ceiling, and was given a directive not to decend below 2,500 feet (i.e. "don't decend in to Class D airspace"). The pilot did decend and got an incursion of Class D airspace. Had I done the same at my home field, I would have been yelled at for violating an ATC directive, but not for an airspace incursion.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Wow, I did not know they were supposed to do this. Denver Center doesn't coordiante with Denver Approach to provide Class B transit for VFR bugsmashers.

As discussed in the other thread, neither does Boston and several others.

 

[Palmpilot]

Wow, I did not know they were supposed to do this. Denver Center doesn't coordiante with Denver Approach to provide Class B transit for VFR bugsmashers.

Class B is a special case. If you don't hear "cleared into the class bravo," you can't enter no matter who you're talking to, unless you're on an IFR clearance.

 

[Jeanie]

Greg, you might also want to include "student pilot" in the phrase:

St. Pete Tower, 25244, student pilot, 10 miles north, 2000, inbound w/ "ATIS"

When you identify yourself as a student they will sometimes speak more slowly and be alerted to your newness to the situation - although if you fly out of KPIE on a regular basis they are probablyalready familiar w/ that airplane and know that you are likely a student.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wow, I did not know they were supposed to do this. Denver Center doesn't coordiante with Denver Approach to provide Class B transit for VFR bugsmashers.

As discussed in the other thread, neither does Boston and several others.

The quote from the 7110.65 is NOT referring to a Center coordinating with a TRACON, it's referring to either one of them coordinating with a class D. Centers and TRACONs (whether they be class B, class C, TRSA, etc) are both radar facilities, and you'll be handed off to whatever facility controls the airspace long before you hit it.