Engineers not Creative? [na]

sierra

sierra

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sierra
the title is actually not quite accurate, since i know a few aero-engineers and they are (well some of them are) creative.

Do those of you who consider yourselves "strict" engineers also consider yourselves to be non-creative? One of the other threads struck me, as someone said something about a topic being too creative for their engineering brain.

I would posit that anyone who is involved in improving a process, developing a process, designing an entity, or planning something must, by default, have a bit of creativity to their psyche. One can't develop out of nothing if one can't bring something different to the table. Perhaps we engineers (and I'm really a hybrid, as I'm a scientist as well) tend to think of our creative tasks as "looking at things from a different angle" rather than as creative tasks.

Just curious.... a case in point would be Rutan's design on SpaceShip 1. Those funny wings were definitely creative.
 
From a long discussion I had a long time ago we figured out that there are design engineers and production engineers. This is a classic astronaut vs astronomer type theory:

True production engineers will take canned prefabricated parts in front of them and just assemble according to instructions, occasionally improve the assembly process, and sometimes maybe make a somewhat interesting variation of existing designs. Put a box of raw materials in front of them and no instructions and they don't know what to do next. They are generally super picky on teeny pointless details to the point they'll ignore the important stuff. They do not want to be called fruitcakes or wacko's.

True design/practical application engineers will take raw materials and develop something new and creative that no one has ever thought of before. If the raw materials don't exist, they'll invent those too becuase they need them for something. They can also take common items and do some really creative things with them that no one else will see coming. They don't worry about insane pointless details until the contraption basically works. Fruitcake and wacko is an honorable title to strive for.

Most people are ratio's of the above two extremes...most of the time anyway. (I've known a few pure production types that were incapable of going past the instructions and having a hard time with even that)


BTW: Rutan's SpaceshipOne wings: According to an interview with Burt on PBS just after the X-prize win: He said the solution came in the middle of the night and his wife thought he lost his mind while running around the house excitedly talking to himself looking for pencil and paper. He said the design came from a shuttlecock. The same shuttlecock you find in the backyard sports department at Sears. Modify it as needed you get high drag, stable and always falls belly down going forward without fail no matter what initial entry attitude or velocity you put it in. (try it, it works) If it deploys, you have a safe reentry even without operating flight controls. The guy is a fruitcake wacko genious and when that fails, he steals from everywhere as needed as it should be.


It's all about lego's, tinker toys and erector sets. The big boxs with hundreds of parts and absolutely NO instructions at all and NO help of any kind.
 
Every day is an ever increasing challenge to figure out how to design and build a part that does not fit our manufacturing process.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Every day is an ever increasing challenge to figure out how to design and build a part that does not fit our manufacturing process.
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at last, the truth in print :goofy:
 
fgcason said:
It's all about lego's, tinker toys and erector sets. The big boxs with hundreds of parts and absolutely NO instructions at all and NO help of any kind.
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I pre-date legos, but I had tinker toys and erector sets while I was growing up. What did I build the most with tinker toys? Why, airplanes, of course! And I practically wore out that erector set.

And, yes, I am an engineer... :D
 
Engineer here. Also a musician, pilot, auto-racer, author, inventor, prankster.

It depends, Engineering is a very broad profession. Some are very strict, inside the box kind of guys. Others are very much outside the box. World needs both kinds of thinkers. Sometimes, you just have to be all about the numbers out to six decimal places. Sometimes you got to about anything but the numbers when the numbers on the things you know just won't work. I want the numbers guy designing my wing spar. I want the outside the box guy designing the airfoil.
 
OK, who also had Lincoln logs??? :D

I also TOTALLY disassembled my Mom's sewing maching at about age 8. She freaked, took all the parts, threw them in a box, and took it to the repair place. "Aw, Mom, I could have put it back together, really I could".....but no dice!

Not the last thing I ever took apart just to see how it worked ;)
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, who also had Lincoln logs??? :D

I also TOTALLY disassembled my Mom's sewing maching at about age 8. She freaked, took all the parts, threw them in a box, and took it to the repair place. "Aw, Mom, I could have put it back together, really I could".....but no dice!

Not the last thing I ever took apart just to see how it worked ;)
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Lincoln logs (still have em), tinker toys, erector sets, electric trains, countless electronic "experimenter kits", several Heathkits and Knight Kits, and a wide assortment of electrical components (motors, relays, transformers etc) from a couple relatives in related businesses. I also took nearly everything apart that I could get my hands on and got most of it back together in working form, many that weren't working when I started.

I did learn at a pretty early age that I wasn't allowed to dissassemble anything without asking permission first.

WRT the creative side, from an artistic perspective I'm sub-par (played a few instruments in school and had years of piano without ever getting very good), but as far as engineering goes, I've always been an "out of the box" kind of guy encouraged no doubt as a kid by the many times my ideas worked out better than the "tried and true" (at least in my opinion at the time).

Generally I relate to things by imagining ways to make them work better or at least to better suit my needs. Even though I like flying much more than building/repairing, I've often considered going with a homebuilt airplane just so I could "improve" it at will. Then again, the limits the FAA has placed on my ability to modify the airplanes I have probably means they are available to fly more of the time.:)
 
fgcason said:
It's all about lego's, tinker toys and erector sets. The big boxs with hundreds of parts and absolutely NO instructions at all and NO help of any kind.
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I have been fascinated with watching/helping my kids build and program robots from Legos. (I coach an elementary school robotics team.) First Lego League is a competition robotics league in which all the teams are given the same challenge, then the kids have to design, build, program and troubleshoot their robot to score points on the competition table. If you've never seen this in action, you probably have no idea how much Lego has changed since the 1960s.

Last season I challenged my team to come up with a drive mechanism that didn't rely on two motors using variable power settings to maneuver. My 10-year-old stared at a box of parts for about 10 minutes and "invented" a workable differential for the drive motor and a fairly good stab at rack and pinion steering. (He has never seen the real things.) Not much doubt what he'll be when he grows up. I'm waiting for him to grow a couple more inches and then we'll get started on building that RV.
 
larrysb said:
...It depends, Engineering is a very broad profession. Some are very strict, inside the box kind of guys. Others are very much outside the box. World needs both kinds of thinkers. Sometimes, you just have to be all about the numbers out to six decimal places. Sometimes you got to about anything but the numbers when the numbers on the things you know just won't work. I want the numbers guy designing my wing spar. I want the outside the box guy designing the airfoil.
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I agree. I also believe that the reality of engineering today can be seen more in the evolution of the Cessna 172 than in the development of SpaceshipOne. With a few exceptions, I believe that the industry is more about solving problems with, or enhancing existing designs. To some extent, revenues and the bottom line force us to stay inside the box. One can only imagine the designs and developments that would come out of today's engineers if money were not the driving force in the industry! :dunno:
 
sierra said:
the title is actually not quite accurate, since i know a few aero-engineers and they are (well some of them are) creative.

Do those of you who consider yourselves "strict" engineers also consider yourselves to be non-creative? One of the other threads struck me, as someone said something about a topic being too creative for their engineering brain.
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That would be me, and what I actually said in post http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?t=1221 was "way too esoteric for me and my software engineer brain"

es·o·ter·ic
adj.
1.
a. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious.
b. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people.
2.
a. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests.

I believe myself to be quite creative, within a structured and well-defined set of rules of software engineering practices, as well as the rules of constructs and syntax of the language and environment involved. While I do not discount the creativity of an artist - my sister is one - I still stand by my statement that the art displayed in the above referenced thread is still "way too esoteric for me and my software engineer brain". However, my sister says the same thing about software, so we're even! ;)

sierra said:
I would posit that anyone who is involved in improving a process, developing a process, designing an entity, or planning something must, by default, have a bit of creativity to their psyche. One can't develop out of nothing if one can't bring something different to the table. Perhaps we engineers (and I'm really a hybrid, as I'm a scientist as well) tend to think of our creative tasks as "looking at things from a different angle" rather than as creative tasks.

Just curious.... a case in point would be Rutan's design on SpaceShip 1. Those funny wings were definitely creative.
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I completely agree with you on this.
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, who also had Lincoln logs??? :D

I also TOTALLY disassembled my Mom's sewing maching at about age 8. She freaked, took all the parts, threw them in a box, and took it to the repair place. "Aw, Mom, I could have put it back together, really I could".....but no dice!

Not the last thing I ever took apart just to see how it worked ;)
Click to expand...


Sean started showing a penchant for taking things apart and "inventing" things a couple years ago. He started putting various toys together to make some new toy. We ran out and bought Legos, Tinker Toys, and a couple other building block sets. He's built a couple versions of airplane yokes, complete with correct fore and aft movements, that look an awful lot like the drawings I've seen of the behind the panel set ups, lots of different airplanes and helicopters, houses, cars, etc. He seems to be able to think of something, and then make it with the toys he has. He's helped me build a wooden model plane, and put our grill together. He was able to figure out where things on the grill went without the instructions. I don't know where he got that ability, but it's sure fun to watch. He has also designated our basement as our model building workshop when I finish gutting it and rebuilding it, a process he is, of course, helping with. Now that we have more room and aren't confined to apartment spaces, we need to increase his inventory to Erectors sets and maybe some Lincoln Logs. 5 y/o certainly isn't too young for such goodies.
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, who also had Lincoln logs??? :D
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me!!!

and i bought six boxes for my son and daughter too<^;
 
Joe Williams said:
Now that we have more room and aren't confined to apartment spaces, we need to increase his inventory to Erectors sets and maybe some Lincoln Logs. 5 y/o certainly isn't too young for such goodies.
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funny how people think differently. we had legos, lincoln logs, etc. long before we had space for them all.... and much earlier than 5. just gotta watch what they put in their mouths. just shoved them all under the bed in between creating sessions... course most of them were "creations never to be disassembled by other then self" so they were all over."

legos under plates. legos under foot. better than barbie shoes under foot. ouch.
 
sierra said:
funny how people think differently. we had legos, lincoln logs, etc. long before we had space for them all.... and much earlier than 5. just gotta watch what they put in their mouths. just shoved them all under the bed in between creating sessions... course most of them were "creations never to be disassembled by other then self" so they were all over."

legos under plates. legos under foot. better than barbie shoes under foot. ouch.
Click to expand...

The last place we had before we bought our house was a one bedroom apartment... a definite lack of space!! It's funny how a kid can make a couple toys expand to take up all available room LOL
 
Almost every engineer I know is creative in some fashion. Photography, music, etc. Many are into nature as well hiking, mountain biking etc. I know a EE who runs an organic orange grove. I met a guy who was a hay farmer. I know a software guy that has done the Ironman Triathalon. Were an interesting bunch.
 
rpadula said:
Or as one of my ex-girlfriends used to call it: Nerd Talk!
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"geek speak" is the phrase around here.
 
sierra said:
Do those of you who consider yourselves "strict" engineers also consider yourselves to be non-creative?
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OK, there's been a slow rant building since this was posted, and it's time to let it fly ;-)

[RANT] Creativity takes time. Creativity takes money. Creativity takes patience. Creativity doesn't meet deadlines, follow timelines, or happen when Micro$oft Project says it should.

These days, most engineers I know spend most of their day firefighting just to get product out the door. What little is left may be spent on structured projects, but little for abstract thought. Many companies used to have large R&D departments, project labs, pilot lines, etc. Time and money was spent allowing people the time to think, ponder, wonder what if. Our company does not anymore. When people spend 10-12hrs a day running 100mph just to get things done, there is little time, will, and aptitude for creative thought.

As Bruce would say, *sigh*

[/RANT]
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, there's been a slow rant building since this was posted, and it's time to let it fly ;-)
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You Go, Bill :blowkiss:



Bill Jennings said:
[RANT] Creativity takes time. Creativity takes money. Creativity takes patience. Creativity doesn't meet deadlines, follow timelines, or happen when Micro$oft Project says it should.
Click to expand...

yes, true, even if one uses Open Office instead <smirk>...

Bill Jennings said:
These days, most engineers I know spend most of their day firefighting just to get product out the door.
[/RANT]
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i did a brief stint w/ an electrical distribution company in their New Design area. hahaha. I came in in the morning, checked my voice mail, started checking my email, when I would be paged out to the floor. After running around the next two hours I'd get to the email, more voice mail, and an overwhelming urge to drink martinis :martini::martini::martini::martini::martini::martini::martini::martini::martini:for lunch at the bar across the street. :( I don't even *like* martinis.

notice it was a brief stint?
 
Actually, i wasn't thinking so much of being creative *just* in the workplace.

Do you sing? Do you dance? Do you take pictures? Do you paint murals on your basement walls? Do you do woodworking? Do you landscape? Do you enjoy throwing pigment on canvass? Do you cook?

etc.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Many companies used to have large R&D departments, project labs, pilot lines, etc.
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...and the FIRST budget to get cut in any belt-tightening? Yep - R&D...
 
Sierra, your byline at the bottom of your posts just cracks me up. Are you, perchance, a chemist?
 
Bill Jennings said:
OK, there's been a slow rant building since this was posted, and it's time to let it fly ;-)

[RANT] Creativity takes time. Creativity takes money. Creativity takes patience. Creativity doesn't meet deadlines, follow timelines, or happen when Micro$oft Project says it should.
Click to expand...
Hee hee. Of course it does, Bill. Around here, the first thing managers do is enter the final deadline into M$ Project and work backwards. When the engineers give all their estimated time inputs, they usually find we should've started 3 months ago!

Makes one want to start drinking :martini:


-Rich
 
Bill Jennings said:
[RANT] Creativity takes time. Creativity takes money. Creativity takes patience. Creativity doesn't meet deadlines, follow timelines, or happen when Micro$oft Project says it should.[/RANT]
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Most folks around here know I work for GE. Every year we bring all our field guys in and have a big update meeting.

For one of the dinners we had speakers in from GE Global Research, our think tank guys. I was semi-surporised to learn that even in economic downtimes (i.e. since before 9/11) Ge has been spending about $1B per year on pure research stuff.

Our website has some of the cool stuff here http://www.ge.com/en/product/imagination_break.html

This Illimunex stuff is a trip. It is flat sheet plastic that emits light. It can be molded to shapes (even a ball) and the plastic itself is the light-source. Your wallpaper can be the light.

There are tons of other cool things but the one that blew my mind was this:

"We took a foam airplane and suspended it by a string. We put copper conductors on the wing tips. We shot 20 thousand volts into it and the "ions" released propelled the airplane forward. Only an inch or so but it moved under ion power! This is Star Trek stuff, folks. Next year we are going to build a much bigger model and shoot 20 gazillion volts into it and propel it across the room!

Now, there are a few practical problems before your 747 will be powered by ion engines, not the least of which is that passengers don't react well to being charged with 20 gazillion volts. We also haven't found the dilythium crystals mine..."

When your country or your company stops spending on pure R&D it's time to pack your bags.

Engineers can be creative but it's the rare engineer that can truly take a white sheet of paper, suspend his learning paradigm and imagine the impossible. Fortunately GE has created this environment although it's vastly different from design, production or process engineering.
 
Back when, (early 80's) I was frantically trying to get out the door on Friday to deliver a report to Federal Express, as usual. Client HAS tohave by Monday AM blah, blah, blah.....
I asked an old time engineer who had been there for 20+ years what they ever did before FedEx. His reesponse, " We planned our project timelines better, and didn't put ourselves into the boxes we fnd ourselves in now. That included not only peer review time, but time to actually make the changes in the final report. It can be done, you know." 25 years and 6 jobs later, we spend ever more on FedEx.
 
rpadula said:
Hee hee. Of course it does, Bill. Around here, the first thing managers do is enter the final deadline into M$ Project and work backwards. When the engineers give all their estimated time inputs, they usually find we should've started 3 months ago!

Makes one want to start drinking :martini:


-Rich
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Must be the new school of project management - I see it everywhere I go. Reality has no place here - this is the delivery date and that's the only thing that matters! If it takes one woman 9 months to have a baby, then 9 women should be able to complete the task in one month. The Project Plan says it's so - don't argue with The Plan!
 
Keith Lane said:
I asked an old time engineer who had been there for 20+ years what they ever did before FedEx. His reesponse, " We planned our project timelines better, and didn't put ourselves into the boxes we fnd ourselves in now. That included not only peer review time, but time to actually make the changes in the final report. It can be done, you know." 25 years and 6 jobs later, we spend ever more on FedEx.
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I think that argument has merit but I suspect that product development cycles are a lot shorter now and less people are involved.

Is that progress? I won't get into that.

But going from Paper Airplane to 787 in 4 or less years is pretty phenomenal.

OTOH - It's funny when you say, "20+ years" That's 1985 give or take.

For some reason when someone says 20 years ago I think of black horn rim glasses, white short sleeve shiirts with skinny ties and slide rules of the 60's.

Uh, that would be 40 years, Dan - damn I'm gettin' old...
 
gkainz said:
...and the FIRST budget to get cut in any belt-tightening? Yep - R&D...
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having been in both R&D and quality, i think Quality gets cut first... just on the off chance that that Thing we were working on in r& (really big D) was going to launch and make millions.
 
Richard said:
Sierra, your byline at the bottom of your posts just cracks me up. Are you, perchance, a chemist?
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Biochemist/Molecular biologist/statistician/computer geek

and i still don't know what i want to be when i grow up:no:
 
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