Engine

FlyBoyAndy

FlyBoyAndy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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FlyBoyAndy
We have a 1967 Piper Cherokee 180 that has about 1500 or so hours on the engine. Our partnership puts away so much hourly towards an engine replacement. What are our options when it comes to replacement\overhaul? What are the ballpark prices for the replacement\overhaul?

We purchased the plane in 2019, and had the numbers in mind back then, but in the current economy and availability, I'm certain things have changed quite a bit, and we may need to adjust our monthly input. Of course if things go well, it may not happen for some time, but I'd like to know what our options are and costs based on POAers experience.
 
The O360’s are running about $35-$38k from most of the major overhaul outfits and that’s with a core exchange.
 
O-360 field overhaul roughly $30K + r&r and shipping, with a good core. While you’re in there, consider new hoses, baffling, accessory overhauls, and any motor mount overhaul/replacement. That’s all additive. And if you’re going to add an engine monitor, nows the time for that, too.

Give Western Skyways or G&N or Penn Yann a call, quotes are free.

Look at Lycoming’s page, too.
https://www.lycoming.com/node/20226#tab1

ETA: we have about 1700hrs on our O-320 and check prices every six months or so. We’re do oil analysis at every oil change and so far everything is humming along nicely.
 
Best to get a free quote from the major overhaul companies. Prices are constantly changing.
 
I think you’d be approaching $50k for an all in proper firewall forward
 
How long is a rope?

There are way too many variables and unknowns to know the correct number going in. If you want to use one of the rebuild shops you can get a pretty accurate number going in, but there will still be possible surprises. Once it’s apart they may find your crankshaft or other component not rebuildable requiring acquisition of a usable core.

I’ve managed three engine majors in the last two years. Both of my own planes plus the right side of my son in laws Baron.

My Cessna O-200 and the Mooney IO-360 were both done by the local shop right across the taxiway from my hangar. I was heavily involved in these two projects. I have done a good bit of auto engine work so I understand much of the process. I am only a couple of hundred miles from Tulsa so I was able to take items to the machine shops and get parts there. Both engines came out great for a lot less money and down time than if I had used one of the engine shops.

When my SIL’s Baron needed attention I started checking engine shops. His big concern was minimizing down time. Penn Yann said it would be a year. The other shops I talked to were six months as the quickest EXCEPT for RAM. Ram said that it would be 8 to 9 weeks as long as it didn’t require any machining that they could not handle in house. Also there was a mandatory inspection on the crankshaft that had not been done. If it failed that it was another $5K for a core or even more if a new crankshaft was the only choice and new lead time was six months. They ended up using a crankshaft core on hand and returned the engine in eight weeks. The engines been in about a year now and has been outstanding in every way.

If you’re not fortunate enough to have an outstanding shop across the taxiway from your hangar like I do AND you have the money, RAM is the only shop I would call. Call Allen Smith at RAM and leave it in his hands with all confidence.

All that said, if the engine has been properly operated and cared for, at 1500 hours it may have many more hours left in it than you think. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
 
MBDiagMan said:
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
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That philosophy does not work well in aviation. Flying it until it fails tends to turn out badly.

We already have owners and mechanics who ignore alternators and magnetos and vacuum pumps, even starters, letting them go until they quit, the typical "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mindset. The stuff usually quits at a bad time, like at night or in IMC or far from home at some out-of-the-way spot. These things are addressed by the inspection checklists in most service manuals. The airframe manufacturer doesn't want you suffering inconvenience or inflight failures any more than you do.

Yes, I know that compression checks, oil analyses and filter inspections can catch engine problems before they become serious. I was a mechanic before I retired, after all.
 
So,…… did I say not to inspect or maintain? Inspect and maintain properly, within proper guidelines and don’t take things apart that are in proper working order and within proper inspection/overhaul intervals.

My sentence is oversimplified, but true. Statistically, a freshly overhauled engine (up to about 250 hours) or even new, is significantly more likely to fail than a properly maintained and inspected engine at TBO.
 
Had my IO-320 done in 2008 for $23K installed. Had my IO-360 in 2014 for $28K installed. These days, you're looking at mid $30s.
 
Velocity173 said:
Had my IO-320 done in 2008 for $23K installed. Had my IO-360 in 2014 for $28K installed. These days, you're looking at mid $30s.
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I was adding up costs for a DIY rebuild on my O-320 the other day. It was a very rough cut, assuming new cylinders, new cam, with rods, crank, case, gears, etc. sent to Aircraft Specialty Services and Divco for inspection/machine work. Obviously, new bearings, gaskets, seals, and new oil pump gears. I ended up in the neighborhood of $12K without taking into consideration doing any work on accessories.
 
kyleb said:
I was adding up costs for a DIY rebuild on my O-320 the other day. It was a very rough cut, assuming new cylinders, new cam, with rods, crank, case, gears, etc. sent to Aircraft Specialty Services and Divco for inspection/machine work. Obviously, new bearings, gaskets, seals, and new oil pump gears. I ended up in the neighborhood of $12K without taking into consideration doing any work on accessories.
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Yeah if you’re mechanically inclined you can save a bundle. Like my cars, my skills these days amount to oil changes.
 
Another thing to add, don’t believe the initial quote from the shop. Both my overhauls came in well above what was quoted because of the unexpected. A lot of components were out of tolerance and had to buy new / overhauled. Then of course it took way longer to get the engines back. Then the install took longer. Everything adds up.
 
kyleb said:
I was adding up costs for a DIY rebuild on my O-320 the other day. It was a very rough cut, assuming new cylinders, new cam, with rods, crank, case, gears, etc. sent to Aircraft Specialty Services and Divco for inspection/machine work. Obviously, new bearings, gaskets, seals, and new oil pump gears. I ended up in the neighborhood of $12K without taking into consideration doing any work on accessories.
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That sounds about right for parts and machine work.
Aircraft Specialties can do it all except the case. I’ve had cases done at Divco and at the other shop not far away in Sand Springs, CSI I think is the name. I was told that CSI is much better deal with which matches my experience.
 
If it isn’t making metal and compression is good, I’d suggest running it a few more years. Parts are high and back ordered right now.

I rebuilt my O-300 this year, and it was down 6 months (quoted 12 weeks for engine). All in with removal, certified overhaul, repaired oil sump, replacement crankshaft, and remounting was around $45k. Airworx did the overhaul. I can’t comment on quality, but its lasted 12 hours so far!
 
texasclouds said:
If it isn’t making metal and compression is good, I’d suggest running it a few more years. Parts are high and back ordered right now.
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If you're talking to me, I'm in no hurry. I was just trying to put a number to a rebuild that I assume is in my future one day. I won't open it up until it tells me to.
 
Order your engine 8 months before you think you want to change it. A firewall forward with be around $45k but that’s just a guess. I purchased a overhauled o-360-A4M from the factory for $29,000 in Sept of 2020 and it delivered in March. At the time I also planned it 8 months so all went very well!
 
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