Engine outs on FAA Private checkride

OzPilot

OzPilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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OzPilot
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate....

That being said, If my DPE tomorrow pulls power at <2000 AGL (and near a dirt/grass strip etc), are they expecting a MULTICOM broadcast on my simulated engine out approach if there are no designated frequencies for that field?

I generally keep a listening watch on all approaching field frequencies, so it is easy enough for normal fields to get the broadcast.

Cheers


(If yes, would it be 122.9 in most areas of Philadelphia?)
 
If it were near a dirt/grass strip, IF and ONLY IF I had the spare time, I'd be broadcasting on 121.5. Not something you'd do on the checkride but you could verbally say it.

If I were with some sort of controller (IFR of flight following) I'd just say it on that frequency if it were the real deal and only if I had the time. It's the LAST priority.
 
What Jesse said.

Once you've got best glide established, field set up and made, you can do piddling things like attempting to fix the problem or restart, make radio calls, etc. This is as much a check of your ability to prioritize correctly as it is to glide the plane to a safe touchdown.
 
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate....
Yes, you answered your own question. Do it that order. If you don't get to communicate it won't be cause for failure. If you do get to it, it just shows you are on top of your game.

Brian
CFIIG/ASE
 
jesse said:
If it were near a dirt/grass strip, IF and ONLY IF I had the spare time, I'd be broadcasting on 121.5. Not something you'd do on the checkride but you could verbally say it.

If I were with some sort of controller (IFR of flight following) I'd just say it on that frequency if it were the real deal and only if I had the time. It's the LAST priority.
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Exactly. Fly the airplane. Good luck on your checkride!
 
Thanks all.

Converting my already FAA licensed foreign privs to a full FAA cert tomorrow. Hopefully the weather plays nice as the forecast has been changing.
 
I'd be interested in hearing from the CFIs or DPEs on this board, but my answer would be NO! A simulated engine out simulates a dire emergency. At 2,000 AGL, you'll have your hands full pitching to best glide, looking for an appropriate landing spot (airport or no airport), and setting up for landing. With time, you may want to trouble shoot the engine out - gas on wrong tank, etc., but at that altitude you will have precious little time to do anything else.

If you are in a situation where he does pull the power near an airport, he should make the precautionary radio calls. That should be the very last thing on your list, and it should not be fatal to not mess with the radios during the emergency.

With sufficient altitude, you may do a simulated "mayday, mayday, mayday."

He will be looking to see you fly the plane (not the other way around) and make a pilot-in-command decision.

Good luck on your checkride!
 
nddons said:
I'd be interested in hearing from the CFIs or DPEs on this board, but my answer would be NO! A simulated engine out simulates a dire emergency. At 2,000 AGL, you'll have your hands full pitching to best glide, looking for an appropriate landing spot (airport or no airport), and setting up for landing. With time, you may want to trouble shoot the engine out - gas on wrong tank, etc., but at that altitude you will have precious little time to do anything else.

If you are in a situation where he does pull the power near an airport, he should make the precautionary radio calls. That should be the very last thing on your list, and it should not be fatal to not mess with the radios during the emergency.

With sufficient altitude, you may do a simulated "mayday, mayday, mayday."

He will be looking to see you fly the plane (not the other way around) and make a pilot-in-command decision.

Good luck on your checkride!
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Actually if you lose your engine at 2000 AGL and you pitch over to best glide speed quickly your sink rate will be about 500 fpm. That means you have somewhere between 3 and 4 minutes before you will touch down. That's a lot of time to do a lot of things and sending out a radio call for help should be something you prioritize but not ignore. Sending out a blind mayday call on 121.5 should not take more then 10 or 20 seconds.
 
^^^ This.

If you are at 2000 AGL and it takes you too long to get everything else done and you don't have time to communicate... it's taking you waay too long. The engine out checklist, or a good mnemonic (Like ABCFAST) should be memorized and completed within a maximum of 30 seconds for most trainers... And that's enough time for nearly everything you really need to do in a Skyhawk or similar aircraft.

Ryan
 
Regarding the mayday calls and the engine out procedures... I have no issue doing this in under 30 seconds and then informing the passenger.

My question really focuses on the fact that I may be spiraling in or planning to use a charted or uncharted airfield, that has no frequency designation on the sectional or in the A/FD's.

Generally I would assume this would be a MULTICOM broadcast airfield under normal circumstances. So wouldn't it be prudent to make a broadcast of "<location> traffic, <aircraft> <callsign>, overhead the field, 2,500, simulated engine out to possible landing, <location>"

If it is suggested I make this "collision/operations avoidance" type broadcast, what is the MCOM frequency in PA near Philly? 122.9? 122.925? Is it another frequency when uncharted? etc
 
Geoff, who are you using as a DPE?

What I'd do is monitor 121.5 on the Comm 2 ( Impress the guy or gal since you will be within 60nm of the Speed Ring of the SFRA then you can do a simulated call on GUARD (121.5). In reality I would not worry about it as I believe he is going to be more concerned with wheather you hit best glide, pick your field and direction etc.

After you get the ticket give me a call and we will grab a beer.
 
Honestly, if I was in a real emergency, I'd hopefully already be on with flight following or the nearest ATC I could find. Typically, even if I wasn't on frequency originally, I think the likelihood of being picked up on the local approach frequency is at least as good as 121.5 - which I would also try.

Ryan
 
AdamZ said:
Geoff, who are you using as a DPE?

What I'd do is monitor 121.5 on the Comm 2 ( Impress the guy or gal since you will be within 60nm of the Speed Ring of the SFRA then you can do a simulated call on GUARD (121.5). In reality I would not worry about it as I believe he is going to be more concerned with wheather you hit best glide, pick your field and direction etc.

After you get the ticket give me a call and we will grab a beer.
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Tom C will be my DPE. The regular guys from KLOM are not available (a medical issue and a broken arm for the other I think)

I'll buzz you after the ride.
 
There is no way in a real emergency that I'd put any effort towards making radio calls on a MULTICOM at some private strip. If I have time at all I'll be telling whichever ATC I'm with. If I'm not with ATC I'll be on 121.5. That is what the DPE will want to hear and you can just say that verbally to him.
 
jesse said:
There is no way in a real emergency that I'd put any effort towards making radio calls on a MULTICOM at some private strip. If I have time at all I'll be telling whichever ATC I'm with. If I'm not with ATC I'll be on 121.5. That is what the DPE will want to hear and you can just say that verbally to him.
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Yep. Understood completely. I have no issue with the "real emergency" portion of handling the aircraft, systems or radios.

I guess my question really is on courtesy. Let's say I am coming into an airfield that is a CTAF and I am practicing a a modified approach or engine out landing etc. You broadcast your intentions, because you don't want to be a factor to other operating aircraft. CTAF is an easy broadcast call.

Now let's say I am coming into a dirt field and some dude is preparing to take off to do some Ag work. Apart from scaring the crap out of him, shouldn't I make that courtesy call during a checkride as well if time permits?

If so... is this on MULTICOM in the USA? IF yes, what is the freq in PA near Philly?

Is MULTICOM used for uncharted airfields without a published frequency in the USA? In Australia, i'd just use CTAF 126.7 if unpublished (or published with that freq)
 
If you've got two coms, one should already be on guard. A flip of a switch, you transmit while you're doing all the other stuff, and back to flying the airplane. If I knew the frequency of the field to which I was heading, had it made, and felt I had time, I might try and tune it in for a broadcast. Otherwise, I'd just do my landing. I haven't seen another airplane in the pattern at any strip other than my own in memory. Colliding with someone in the pattern would be the last of my worries.
 
Once you have everything stabilized, you're on a good glide path and speed, ran you engine failure flow and checklist and you still have sufficient time to kill, you can tell the DPE, "If this were real I'd be making a Mayday call on 121.5 with identifier, description, best position, souls onboard and nature of emergency about now." If you don't have time to do anything but concentrate on getting the plane safely to the ground, not making a radio call will not be counted against you. Actully, I doubt not making the call would be counted against you at all unless you're stable and coming down from waay high where you have several minutes of glide time.
 
OzPilot said:
Is MULTICOM used for uncharted airfields without a published frequency in the USA? In Australia, i'd just use CTAF 126.7 if unpublished (or published with that freq)
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It is my understanding that in the U.S. 122.9 is the MULTICOM frequency for airports having no UNICOM or published frequency. On one practice engine out into a private grass runway, I switched to 122.9 and announced something like "Daniels traffic, Cessna 62H east of field practicing simulated engine out, will cross over field for left downwind onto north bound runway, Daniels." (I couldn't remember their runway numbers, and they were painted on the field.) This seemed to be OK by CFI, who, I recall, thought the radio call perhaps redundant for that field.
 
OzPilot said:
Yep. Understood completely. I have no issue with the "real emergency" portion of handling the aircraft, systems or radios.

I guess my question really is on courtesy. Let's say I am coming into an airfield that is a CTAF and I am practicing a a modified approach or engine out landing etc. You broadcast your intentions, because you don't want to be a factor to other operating aircraft. CTAF is an easy broadcast call.

Now let's say I am coming into a dirt field and some dude is preparing to take off to do some Ag work. Apart from scaring the crap out of him, shouldn't I make that courtesy call during a checkride as well if time permits?

If so... is this on MULTICOM in the USA? IF yes, what is the freq in PA near Philly?

Is MULTICOM used for uncharted airfields without a published frequency in the USA? In Australia, i'd just use CTAF 126.7 if unpublished (or published with that freq)
Click to expand...

Based on my experience with my PP checkride (OK, it was 10 years ago) you won't get close enough to the ground to scare anyone.
 
I had an engine failure last year on climb out from Fairmont, WV (4G7) a single strip unicom field.

(Described in this post).

Once I had the field in sight, I realized I was a tiny airplane coming in the wrong way. I announced I had power loss and was returning immediately to the field.

I didn't say Mayday because I didn't think of it -- I'm not sure if I said "emergency," but the point was made -- get outta the way!

If a DPE or FAA type faulted me upon arrival for not saying this or that, the latent nervous energy would have resulted in a decking.

As everyone has repeated on here -- it's really bad when the fan stops, and you need to fly the airplane.

Comms are a priority, just a lower priority.
 
I teach A, B, C for engine outs.

Airspeed
Best Spot to land
Checklist

If the checklist has radio calls on it, so be it, but unless you're 8,000 AGL, just worry about the plane, where you are going to put it down, and getting it restarted. If you exhaust your checklist and then have time to make a call, then make it on 121.5.
 
I believe you do not answer OPs question - he is asking about SIMULATED emergency over private strip during check ride. I would say DPE will take care of radio calls to warn traffic around. It is his job. You have to concentrate on your part. Don't waste your time on anything that is not in the PTS.
And good luck with check ride!
 
EdFred said:
I teach A, B, C for engine outs.

Airspeed
Best Spot to land
Checklist

If the checklist has radio calls on it, so be it, but unless you're 8,000 AGL, just worry about the plane, where you are going to put it down, and getting it restarted. If you exhaust your checklist and then have time to make a call, then make it on 121.5.
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....and verbalize that you would do so....but above all, get the approach right. Verbalize the engine restart drill, but above all get the approach right.
 
And don't worry about warning the cropduster. He probably doesn't have a radio anyway! (At least the time I landed at a strip with an active cropduster working
, the folks on the ground said they didn't have a radio in the plane. )
 
gprellwitz said:
And don't worry about warning the cropduster. He probably doesn't have a radio anyway! (At least the time I landed at a strip with an active cropduster working
, the folks on the ground said they didn't have a radio in the plane. )
Click to expand...


More and more planes get equipped because it's required for gov't contract work, and a lot of the big projects are Gov't.
 
Engine out was the next to last thing my DPE wanted me to demonstrate. After he saw I knew the procedure and found a good landing spot (PVT field happened to appear) he told me about using minimum decent rate, said it was right above the stall, so we circled a bit overhead at that rate which seemed forever. I thought we were actually gonna bring it in until he said the engine came back to life.

I'd never heard this before...everybody always says best glide until you've made the landing field. I added it to my toolbag.
 
I've had the power pulled on a number of dual lessons, stage checks, and the check ride, but not once was there any mention of the radio, except in the most general context ("if we were at cruise altitude and losing power, etc").

The typical engine-out scenario simulated on these rides, AFAIK, is while maneuvering, fairly low (such as the recommended 1500 AGL for ground-ref maneuvers), and I've never been asked to do this drill anywhere near an airport of any kind. The radio is the last thing to consider, if at all... there isn't much time, and there are more important things to deal with.

But as was posted above, if the intended landing site is a runway with a CTAF, it could be beneficial to say something, if you can, especially if you are diving in against traffic. But it's not necessary, or required.
 
bbchien said:
....and verbalize that you would do so....but above all, get the approach right. Verbalize the engine restart drill, but above all get the approach right.
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Yup. I have my students read aloud the checklists, but keep looking outside as much as possible. Eyes outside, checklist item, do it, eyes outside...
 
At my field (published ILS approach) the dusters do have a radio and they make a call - about 50 feet from the numbers... They don't listen...
I suspect they do look, however...

As I was landing one day, one cut across in front of me - about 200 feet off the ground - hung a hard left and landed, then scooted off onto the grass leaving the runway clear... I went around anyway... On the ground he gave me the old, "ya had plenty of room"... I didn't say much, but I was annoyed... After he blasted off I was drinking coffee and the ground crew came in and attempted to bandage over it with a recitation of how much extra fuel the turbine burns if he has to fly a downwind, etc. I remained friendly but countered with, "I just came from Grand Rapids FSDO (personal business)... If the FSDO inspector had been in my plane your boy would have a suspended license... Tell him to think about how much that costs."

denny-o
 
EdFred said:
I teach A, B, C for engine outs.

Airspeed
Best Spot to land
Checklist
Click to expand...

My CFI added a "D" to the list - ditching. Master off, door open. We never got to that point, other than verbalizing it. Most of the rest I had to actually perform (switching fuel tanks, ...), and not just say it.

Jaybird180 said:
minimum decent rate, said it was right above the stall, so we circled a bit overhead at that rate which seemed forever. I thought we were actually gonna bring it in until he said the engine came back to life.

I'd never heard this before...everybody always says best glide until you've made the landing field. I added it to my toolbag.
Click to expand...

Yeah - like Vx and Vy, there are different glide speeds. Best glide will get you the most horizontal distance - handy when you are trying reach a landing spot. Minimum descent will give you the slowest descent rate - nice when you are already right above a landing spot and want to delay the inevitable as long as possible. Gliders usually have all sorts of charts with graphs and numbers on them, but airplane manuals just seem to have the one - "best glide".

The engine-out on my checkride happened when it turned out that I was actually on a downwind leg to a private grass strip just behind my left shoulder. Pretty simple. It helped a lot that during training, my CFI was constantly asking "if you lost your engine right now, where would you land?" That always kept me looking for a landing spot.
 
Dr. O said:
At my field (published ILS approach) the dusters do have a radio and they make a call - about 50 feet from the numbers... They don't listen...
I suspect they do look, however...

As I was landing one day, one cut across in front of me - about 200 feet off the ground - hung a hard left and landed, then scooted off onto the grass leaving the runway clear... I went around anyway... On the ground he gave me the old, "ya had plenty of room"... I didn't say much, but I was annoyed... After he blasted off I was drinking coffee and the ground crew came in and attempted to bandage over it with a recitation of how much extra fuel the turbine burns if he has to fly a downwind, etc. I remained friendly but countered with, "I just came from Grand Rapids FSDO (personal business)... If the FSDO inspector had been in my plane your boy would have a suspended license... Tell him to think about how much that costs."

denny-o
Click to expand...

No, he wouldn't be. He followed the Pt 137 regs quite well.
 
Thanks for all the input. I found out my answer today as well..

- During a checkride... at an airfield with an uncharted or documented (in A/FD) frequency, no bother with the MULTICOM.
- During your own practice with a go-around.. probably best to use MULTICOM
- During planned practice over other airfields.. call over CTAF or appropriate freq.

BTW. I ask for a discontinuance after the oral today, even though it was SKC and I would have departed if we actually were going to the destination... a few METAR's in the area included 18G28, 21G30, 19G28 and a headwind of 34-36 in central PA at 4500.
 
Geoff is your practicing simulated engine outs and want to alert the field all you do is make a call on the CTAF, where you are and just say simulated engine out say it twice to make sure folks who only half heard don't think you had a real one. If your over some corn field then no call for the simulation is really needed.
 
OzPilot said:
BTW. I ask for a discontinuance after the oral today, even though it was SKC and I would have departed if we actually were going to the destination... a few METAR's in the area included 18G28, 21G30, 19G28 and a headwind of 34-36 in central PA at 4500.
Click to expand...

Good call on the discontinuance. The first day of my instrument checkride, winds were 24G30. A week or so later they were 15G20, but I decided to take it anyway just to get it over with. It was rocky but doable.

Good luck again.
 
Here is another that I learned:

Glide, Grass, Gas.

In other words, attain best glide speed, find a place to put her down, and then troubleshoot the problem.
 
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