Engine Monitor

No, best case is it pays for itself on the test flight when you notice you have a partially clogged injector nozzle and adjust the fuel flow to keep from melting down a piston and lunching your entire engine or even just a cylinder.

Yeah, but even on MoGas that's virtually impossible to do on a parallel valve 360.

Now on a 520/550 or angle valve Lycoming, different story.
 
Since you said you like adding some information, a bit more info.

This is true for any engine, not just Lycomings. It's basic laws of physics. On turbocharged engines, some people advocate adding manifold pressure to make up for the lost speed. On naturally aspirated, that isn't an option at typical cruising altitudes.

No not true for carburated engines. Most Cherokees are Carburated that is why I said since you have xxxxx i was specifically referring to the fuel injection as qualifier. Why would you would jump to any other conclusion?


There are a great deal of variables with this, and the industry as a whole would disagree with them on that point. The issue is if you do not run lean enough (or rich enough) being in what they call the "red box." That is for another discussion.

red box always deserves a discussion with or without an EA...BTW most long range WWII military had to use LOP without EA's this is not new.


Are you aware what you are doing when you just lean the engine out? I'm guessing not, but an engine monitor would tell you. Depending on how rich or lean you are, your CHTs can be in a very undesirable range. This also has to do with engine cooling, condition of your baffles, etc., but saying you can "just lean out" is technically true, but the cause for a number of cylinder problems. You'd be surprised how much CHTs can and do rise when you operate in the wrong range.

I don't mind a review when I need one but this sounds a little condescending. this is covered in basic ppl ground school, besides any owner with high performance let alone with a Turbo has had plenty of review on lean operations, induction, heating and baffles.
 
Henning,

I am with you 100% on that thought.

I am reviewing the install manuals now of the EI and the JPI units. I am leaning towards the JPI because of its fuel tracking features. EI doesn't do that. Now do I want to spend the extra $400 to $500 for the 730 over the 700.

Not really sure how the 730 will look setting on the plastic panel overlay of my Cherokee yet.

As far as which display head, no difference in information, so pick whichever. The 730 does have the full time display rather than having to push the button to cycle through the functions, not sure if it's worth $400-$500, but it is nice.
 
No not true for carburated engines. Most Cherokees are Carburated that is why I said since you have xxxxx i was specifically referring to the fuel injection as qualifier. Why would you would jump to any other conclusion?




red box always deserves a discussion with or without an EA...BTW most long range WWII military had to use LOP without EA's this is not new.




I don't mind a review when I need one but this sounds a little condescending. this is covered in basic ppl ground school, besides any owner with high performance let alone with a Turbo has had plenty of review on lean operations, induction, heating and baffles.
1- The red box is a concept newer than WW2
2- if they knew, they probably had other things to think about than reduced TBO
3- who paid the bill?
 
The other thought is whether to get the 2.75" or pay the extra $380 for the full 3.125". It will be going in the larger hole to the left of the T&B as it will be much easier to see there than where the old EGT is. EI makes an adapter to put the smaller unit in the larger hole but I am not sure JPI does.

This would also make the button access better because they would poke through the plate instead of the plastic overlay.
 
Yeah, but even on MoGas that's virtually impossible to do on a parallel valve 360.

Now on a 520/550 or angle valve Lycoming, different story.

That looks like an Arrow in the pick to me, it may have a 180 parallel valve motor but more likely a 200hp angle valve injected engine.
 
I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending but since I am the original poster please accept my apologies. I am just gathering info so I can make an informed decision.

Yes it is the IO360 in an Arrow III
 
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The other thought is whether to get the 2.75" or pay the extra $380 for the full 3.125". It will be going in the larger hole to the left of the T&B as it will be much easier to see there than where the old EGT is. EI makes an adapter to put the smaller unit in the larger hole but I am not sure JPI does.

This would also make the button access better because they would poke through the plate instead of the plastic overlay.

Any adapter ring will work, you can even make your own, but I prefer the big one.
 
So if I were to opt for the larger 700 it is only a couple hundred more for the 730. I cut out a piece of paper to see how it would fit and it would work out. As with all aviation upgrades it is growing a bit in magnitude. It is always that feeling that a few hundred would have given me what I really wanted. Decisions decisions.
 
So if I were to opt for the larger 700 it is only a couple hundred more for the 730. I cut out a piece of paper to see how it would fit and it would work out. As with all aviation upgrades it is growing a bit in magnitude. It is always that feeling that a few hundred would have given me what I really wanted. Decisions decisions.


Tell me about it, you seen my panel...?:rofl::rofl::rofl: There are roads to upgrade most systems, you can upgrade a 700 to a 730 for just over $1000 according to the ads, whereas you can do it for under $500 now.
 
Yes I checked out your slide show, there's more money in your panel than my whole airplane. I got a good deal on the airplane knowing I would need to do some upgrades to the panel. It is a great flyer and runs great. Has around 2300 TTAF and 1340 since new on the engine.
 
Henning,

I am with you 100% on that thought.

I am reviewing the install manuals now of the EI and the JPI units. I am leaning towards the JPI because of its fuel tracking features. EI doesn't do that. Now do I want to spend the extra $400 to $500 for the 730 over the 700.

Not really sure how the 730 will look setting on the plastic panel overlay of my Cherokee yet.

The advantage of the 730 is that it has a much shorter depth - only 3 in IIRC compared to the 7in or so of the 700. As for fuel tracking, that's an add-on priced separately.
 
I would love to see an installation through the plastic panel overlay of my Arrow
 
So if I were to opt for the larger 700 it is only a couple hundred more for the 730. I cut out a piece of paper to see how it would fit and it would work out. As with all aviation upgrades it is growing a bit in magnitude. It is always that feeling that a few hundred would have given me what I really wanted. Decisions decisions.

I took cardboard, but to the exact dimensions of the various monitors I was considering then sat in the airplane and stuck the cardboard in various locations. Made it really simple to determine that some locations were not at all practical depending on the unit in question.
 
Found this picture of a 830, same size. My T&B is in the hole to the left and the ADF in the hole to the right. Ideally I would move the T&B to the right and put the 730 in the hole to the left. I am not sure I like the way it fits. Looks like it is just stuck there.
 

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Found this picture of a 830, same size. My T&B is in the hole to the left and the ADF in the hole to the right. Ideally I would move the T&B to the right and put the 730 in the hole to the left. I am not sure I like the way it fits. Looks like it is just stuck there.

That installation is butt ugly.
 
The other thought is whether to get the 2.75" or pay the extra $380 for the full 3.125". It will be going in the larger hole to the left of the T&B as it will be much easier to see there than where the old EGT is. EI makes an adapter to put the smaller unit in the larger hole but I am not sure JPI does.

This would also make the button access better because they would poke through the plate instead of the plastic overlay.

I went down to the shop today to look at my installation. They got it mounted in the panel. 2 1/4" is pretty small. If you can go bigger, I would.
 
I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending but since I am the original poster please accept my apologies. I am just gathering info so I can make an informed decision.

Yes it is the IO360 in an Arrow III

No Tim, "Iflytwins" comment seemed condescending....
 
1- The red box is a concept newer than WW2
2- if they knew, they probably had other things to think about than reduced TBO
3- who paid the bill?


Redbox is just a construct to explain detonation on a graph. Nothing new here.

You should have learned about detonation in ground school. They knew about detonation in WWII.

My reference to wwii was that aviators used LOP without EA long ago so there is some understanding of the topic and how to avoid blowing up engines without the exactness of EA.
 
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No not true for carburated engines. Most Cherokees are Carburated that is why I said since you have xxxxx i was specifically referring to the fuel injection as qualifier. Why would you would jump to any other conclusion?

How is it not true on carbureted engines? The main limit that carbureted engines is they won't run LOP well due to poor mixture distribution.

For the most part, we talk about LOP with injected engines, though, so I should have quantified that.

red box always deserves a discussion with or without an EA...BTW most long range WWII military had to use LOP without EA's this is not new.
When did I say LOP was a new concept? It's also not new on piston engines without EAs, by the way. Go read the POH for a PA-31-310 - says it right in there as an option, and Navajos do run LOP nicely. However, on the whole, the planes that actually have detonation concerns (primarily the turbocharged ones) have been seen in the industry to run more conservative rich mixtures. I agree with this philosophy for the engines that have detonation concerns (and that pretty much comes down to Navajos, a couple other high-powered turbo Lycomings, and the various high-powered turbo Continentals).

I don't mind a review when I need one but this sounds a little condescending. this is covered in basic ppl ground school, besides any owner with high performance let alone with a Turbo has had plenty of review on lean operations, induction, heating and baffles.
Detonation and engine management is covered extremely poorly in private pilot ground school by people who, for the most part, understand it very poorly themselves. From what I've seen, most people have no clue about how detonation actually manifests itself. Any owner of a high performance engine, especially turbocharged, I typically find included in that category.

This isn't the fault of any individual pilot, it's unfortunately something that's been going on for a long time due to a propagation of a lack of understanding. The folks in Ada on the whole do a good job of educating people on engines and fighting this ignoranche. I disagree with a few things that they promote, but that's fine, because I don't disagree with it from a safety, more just from a point of operation.

My point that made question whether you understand what you're suggesting is that simply pulling back 1 gph isn't necessarily a good idea at all, for reasons beyond detonation.

And people wonder why Bruce left...
 
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That looks like an Arrow in the pick to me, it may have a 180 parallel valve motor but more likely a 200hp angle valve injected engine.

Oops, my mistake there.

The angle valve IO-360s do have some more detonation concerns, yes, although I've really never seen them do a whole lot. Although you did have areas of detonation during the cert test, but by the time you're not running at oil at max temp, CHTs at max temp, and less than full power (which should be pretty much the entire life of your engine), there's not much.
 
My point that made question whether you understand what you're suggesting is that simply pulling back 1 gph isn't necessarily a good idea at all, for reasons beyond detonation.

And people wonder why Bruce left...

Again, why would you understand saving by simply pulling back 1 gph? To mean doing the the wrong thing. Even if I were talking about LOP it wouldn't be wrong only incomplete.

You never run 65% or 60% ROP either? when you tell someone to run 1 gallon less per hour you need to tell them to go full rich, reduce fuex, reset mixture?

Bruce is a friend of mine and my AME. He is wound up a bit tight sometimes and he knows it, as am I some times. :)

You say you want to enlighten but your reply about Detonation does nothing to enlighten. It is better handled in the basic ppl course.

If you do not have the time or patience to read and understand someones post maybe it is time to take a break.
 
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I should have :mad2: I was getting ready to go flying with a friend and didn't take much time. If they put it back in my hangar, I will this weekend.

John,
I think you told me earlier, but where did you have your new monitor mounted.

The simplest route for me would be to mount it where the old EGT is. I just don't know if that location would make it very usable. I should really move my T&B one hole to the right so it is in the original 6 pack location and toss the ADF. That would leave a hole for an Engine Monitor in plain sight. I am looking for pictures of similar installations as finding the one of the 730 installation made the decision to nix that idea very easy.
 
John,
I think you told me earlier, but where did you have your new monitor mounted.

The simplest route for me would be to mount it where the old EGT is. I just don't know if that location would make it very usable. I should really move my T&B one hole to the right so it is in the original 6 pack location and toss the ADF. That would leave a hole for an Engine Monitor in plain sight. I am looking for pictures of similar installations as finding the one of the 730 installation made the decision to nix that idea very easy.

I will try to get a picture today. I pulled out the old EGT, since I won't need it and put it there. I have an older Cherokee, though, with the shotgun panel. It is just below and to the left of the right side yoke, so it seems a little small, since it is down and to the right of the stack. I was able to read the old EGT fine in that location, though, so we shall see. I am doing my flight review today at a different airport, so I may not get there until tomorrow.
 
John,
I think you told me earlier, but where did you have your new monitor mounted.

The simplest route for me would be to mount it where the old EGT is. I just don't know if that location would make it very usable. I should really move my T&B one hole to the right so it is in the original 6 pack location and toss the ADF. That would leave a hole for an Engine Monitor in plain sight. I am looking for pictures of similar installations as finding the one of the 730 installation made the decision to nix that idea very easy.

You see where mine is located right? No problems at all having it over there.
 
Henning,
Here is a pic of my panel. I don't know how easy it will be to really see and interpret the monitor from the existing EGT location.

All things considered that would be the most accessible location.

If that is what I do then I think the best thing to do would be to go for either the EI or JPI EGT/CHT only in that location and add a fuel totalizer to the left of the pilots yoke at a later date.

I would love to hear from someone that has put one in that location so hear that it is useable.
 

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Henning,
Here is a pic of my panel. I don't know how easy it will be to really see and interpret the monitor from the existing EGT location.

All things considered that would be the most accessible location.

If that is what I do then I think the best thing to do would be to go for either the EI or JPI EGT/CHT only in that location and add a fuel totalizer to the left of the pilots yoke at a later date.

I would love to hear from someone that has put one in that location so hear that it is useable.

My EGT is in the same spot. I will let you know how it goes, but it seems that the lettering for the numbers might be a little on the small side, based on the size of the display (for the Insight G1 that I bought). It is 2 1/4".
 
Henning,
Here is a pic of my panel. I don't know how easy it will be to really see and interpret the monitor from the existing EGT location.

All things considered that would be the most accessible location.

If that is what I do then I think the best thing to do would be to go for either the EI or JPI EGT/CHT only in that location and add a fuel totalizer to the left of the pilots yoke at a later date.

I would love to hear from someone that has put one in that location so hear that it is useable.


If you're getting rid of the ADF, put the DG there and put the 700 in the DG hole.
 
That was my original thought Henning. And if I put it there I would spring for the fuel flow option because the location would be ideal as far as having very useful information in plain sight.

How hard is it getting to that stuff, is it best from the bottom or from the top. Will be working with an A&P but just curious how you get to ll that stuff.
 
That was my original thought Henning. And if I put it there I would spring for the fuel flow option because the location would be ideal as far as having very useful information in plain sight.

How hard is it getting to that stuff, is it best from the bottom or from the top. Will be working with an A&P but just curious how you get to ll that stuff.

Depends, sometimes underneath, sometimes you have to unscrew and lay the panel forward.
 
Henning,
Here is a pic of my panel. I don't know how easy it will be to really see and interpret the monitor from the existing EGT location.

All things considered that would be the most accessible location.

If that is what I do then I think the best thing to do would be to go for either the EI or JPI EGT/CHT only in that location and add a fuel totalizer to the left of the pilots yoke at a later date.

I would love to hear from someone that has put one in that location so hear that it is useable.

I can't tell what's just to the left of the Tach. In my cherokee, that was the Hobbs, so the 730 replaced it. For me, it's not a big deal to put the 730 in my scan, since the tach is part of my scan. But then, I rarely have anything on the yoke so it's not obscured. If I need an approach plate, I clip it to the yoke.
 
The instrument to the left of the tach is the Manifold Pressure and Fuel Flow in GPH
 
That was my original thought Henning. And if I put it there I would spring for the fuel flow option because the location would be ideal as far as having very useful information in plain sight.

How hard is it getting to that stuff, is it best from the bottom or from the top. Will be working with an A&P but just curious how you get to ll that stuff.

It really helps to have a young A&P who's also a contortionist for the circus with small fingers.
 
I will try to get a picture today. I pulled out the old EGT, since I won't need it and put it there. I have an older Cherokee, though, with the shotgun panel. It is just below and to the left of the right side yoke, so it seems a little small, since it is down and to the right of the stack. I was able to read the old EGT fine in that location, though, so we shall see. I am doing my flight review today at a different airport, so I may not get there until tomorrow.

My plane was locked up in the FBO hangar. I will probably be doing an MX flight with it tomorrow, though. I can get a pic with it turned on.
 
I have a JPI 830 sitting where the #2 nav head would be in a typical panel (I've got an HSI so the #2 head is where most installations have the #1 head). My other tiny beech engine gauges (including MP and Tach) are on the far right of the panel. I really like having the MP/RPM displayed on the JPI. Fuelflow is a real convenient add on. My old OAT guage was a bit of a kludge so I was happy to see that replaced with the JPI as well.

I have all the other options too (Oil pressure/temperature, etc... ). Nice to have a backup to my scan.
 
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