Engine failure on takeoff. turn around?

JasonM

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I was told that if you loose power on takeoff to achieve proper glide speed and stay straight ahead, follow the procedures and land at the safest landing spot possible.

Then I found this video of these guys training a turnaround. Just what I need if my engine fails, another debate with myself. :dunno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbGZxVfXAo
 
I was told that if you loose power on takeoff to achieve proper glide speed and stay straight ahead, follow the procedures and land at the safest landing spot possible.

Then I found this video of these guys training a turnaround. Just what I need if my engine fails, another debate with myself. :dunno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbGZxVfXAo

The correct answer for flight training is do not turn back, make small turns to a better clearing and land under control and do not risk uncontrolled landing (stall spin)by turning back.

Let's say you have 1200 agl when the engine fails and you are flying a Cessna 205 off of 5500 paved runway from an airport with 1500 elevation with two people aboard, the turn back is more than doable.

It's know your machine and think of what your going to do if things don't go as planned before you take the runway.

Lincoln Nebraska has essentially parallel runways. Departure end of 17 is the city and not very good options for straight ahead but a right turn puts you on 18/36 which extends way farther south than 17 does. Takeoff from 35 is easier with open fields to the north for straight ahead landings.

King schools says has one lesson showing they burn up 800+ feet doing the turn back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LNK_airport_map.gif
 
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I was told that if you loose power on takeoff to achieve proper glide speed and stay straight ahead, follow the procedures and land at the safest landing spot possible.

Then I found this video of these guys training a turnaround. Just what I need if my engine fails, another debate with myself. :dunno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbGZxVfXAo

This is not in a typical GA airplane. Don't ever try what they are doing. Did you see how wide their landing area was? I don't think they made one landing within the width of the area that they took off from. If I had a 2000'X1000' grass field to take off from, it would be a different story.
This video was nuts and in no way represents a typical takeoff, engine failure and turnaround in a typical GA airplane at a typical airport.
 
Get an CFI, climb to 2000 agl and simulate the engine out and return to the runway. See what happens. See how much altitude you lose. Remember, it's NOT a 180 turn, it's a teardrop to get back to the runway.
 
The airplane they are using for this has a glide ratio of 23:1, from my quick search. A Cessna 172, however, has a glide ratio of 9:1.

It's probably good to practice a version of this maneuver at altitude, as Murphey mentioned, and in each plane that you use, so you can come up with a "never turn back" altitude specific to that particular aircraft. http://www.aopa.org/training/articles/2011/110519impossible_turn_practice.html
 
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A pilot should never just be along for the ride.

Do the training others have suggested and learn the critical altitude for your plane, at which the "impossible turn" becomes possible. Then brief that to yourself on every takeoff.

"OK, engine failure on takeoff I will land straight ahead and accept the consequences. Once I reach 1500 msl (as appropriate for your airport), on engine failure I will turn (left/right) for a landing on runway XX."

A pilot has a plan.

-Skip
 
I was told that if you loose power on takeoff to achieve proper glide speed and stay straight ahead, follow the procedures and land at the safest landing spot possible.

Then I found this video of these guys training a turnaround. Just what I need if my engine fails, another debate with myself. :dunno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HbGZxVfXAo
There are no videos of the guys who didn't make it.
 
Did you also notice how much airspeed they had (nearly 100). I would venture a guess that that speed is nowhere near Vx or Vy.
 
One major difference between these videos of folks showing it being done and reality is the pucker factor that sets in when the fan stops and that "oh *****" feeling sinks in. How will you react then?
 
There is no one correct answer to this for all aircraft or all situations. However, Prof. Dave Rogers' paper on this should provide food for thought on the subject. Read it, and then see what you think.

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/impossible_wide_screen.pdf

That said, in light single engine trainers, about 800 AGL is usually the minimum to execute this maneuver successfully if Prof. Rogers' techniques are followed precisely.
 
They are also ready for it anticipating the end of the runway as the engine failure point. In real life you won't know when it is gonna happen and it will take you a few seconds of disbelief to recognize and deal with the planes attitude an air speed let alone turning, maintaining airspeed, and surviving.

Not a good idea for the average pilot. According to the FAA most die trying "The impossible turn".

The return-to-airport maneuver has been labeled the “impossible turn” with good reason: It requires substantial altitude and involves aggressive maneuvering. Taken by surprise, pilots often fail to maintain airspeed and end up having stall/spin accidents. For a gliding aircraft attempting to maintain airspeed, any banking of the wing will increase the sink rate. And the banking doesn’t end after the 180-degree turn. More maneuvering is necessary to overcome the lateral offset from the runway and point the nose down the centerline. Meanwhile, stall speed is increasing with angle of bank. For a crippled airplane already flying low and slow, this combination of lost altitude and rising stall speed can quickly turn a bad situation into a tragic one.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/epilot_acc/lax07la022.html
 
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You turn back - you die.

These guys are planning the engine cut. This is not reality.

Train your muscle memory to instantly push the nose down at the first engine cough, and scan for a place to put it more or less in the 45 degree arc ahead - while your other hand is switching tanks, etc. trying to get the engine back.

This was not a takeoff failure, but shows the benefits of having a mental plan imbedded in muscle memory.
I had an instantaneous engine cut at Oshkosh just as I was turning final in the usual mob scene there. Instinctively I stuffed the nose down and began a sharp right bank towards the lake while I did tanks/pump/firewall/etc.
Controller was calling 'green bonanza what are you doing, turn left.'.
The guy with me was 'what are you doing?'
My single reply into the mic was 'crashing'. (they are listening even though they say they aren't.)
That got silence from both.
3 seconds later the engine came back, I made an ugly keyhole pattern back the threshold and landed at the spot they had originally called for.
Had I continued turning to the runway and the engine had not come back, we would have hit the houses and died. By instinctively turning to the open area (lake) 30 degrees to my right we might have lived.
 
You turn back - you die.
You spin, you die. You fly in the clouds, you die. Etc., etc. All hogwash. This maneuver is like any other -- if properly executed from an appropriate altitude, it's fine, but if not, it can kill you. Further, I've been at plenty of airports where going straight ahead is likely lethal, so it's all situations.

That said, this is not a maneuver to be tried for the first time from 800 AGL by yourself when your engine actually quits. If you want to add it to your bag of tricks, get an instructor who is familiar with it, and learn it at a safe altitude (say, one from which spin recovery is possible). Don't do what those knuckleheads in the Cirrus did and try to learn it on real takeoffs at low altitude. And once you do learn it, practice it periodically (again, from a safe altitude), and use it with discretion based on the actual circumstances and available landing areas around the airport of departure.
 
Good points here.
My personal limit before I even consider it as an option, in the skyhawk is 1000'.

I have a friend who did it and survived from 600' in his Mooney. The guy also has many many carrier traps in F-14s:D
 
Good points here.
My personal limit before I even consider it as an option, in the skyhawk is 1000'.

I have a friend who did it and survived from 600' in his Mooney. The guy also has many many carrier traps in F-14s:D

Personal minimums are a good thing. Live by them, literally. ;)
 
Personal minimums are a good thing. Live by them, literally. ;)

:yes:

The tough part is knowing that you don't have many good options when departing a densely populated Class D, like the one I fly out of!

Barry Schiff made an excellent video on the subject.
http://www.barryschiff.com/videos.htm

I like watching him over youtube videos:lol:
 
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In ANY airplane you should brief out loud your emergency take off procedure...exactly where you're going to take the airplane if you have no engine, and the minimum altitude you would even consider turning back....really should be on your checklist....when I flight instruct others it bothers me how many folks ignore this...
 
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A pilot should never just be along for the ride.

Do the training others have suggested and learn the critical altitude for your plane, at which the "impossible turn" becomes possible. Then brief that to yourself on every takeoff.

"OK, engine failure on takeoff I will land straight ahead and accept the consequences. Once I reach 1500 msl (as appropriate for your airport), on engine failure I will turn (left/right) for a landing on runway XX."

A pilot has a plan.

-Skip

"and I will minimize damage to people on the ground becausethe insurance company owns the airplane and I don't care what happens as long as people are safe"
 
I had an engine blow a cylinder on takeoff and had to bring it back to idle as we were shaking to death. I was probably about 600 AGL with the gear up. Unfortunately the area directly ahead was pretty inhospitable. I swung it in the 45 degree/stall speed turn to put it on the airport access road which I was sure I could make. After getting through that turn I figured I had plenty of room to get around to the runway. At 200' I was crossing back over the runway and remembered to get the gear down (fortunately it slams down fast in the Navion). I probably touched down about half way down but still with some sideways drift (not my best landing). I came to rest at the fixed distance markers (1000' to go) having blown a tire in the process.

The best paper on this is still Dave Roger's "The Possible Impossible Turn" he wrote for one of the AIAA journals. You can find copies by googling that.
 
The more tools you have in your bag, the more options you have. Given the right set of circumstances the "impossible turn" may be an option, but it would have to be the right set of circumstances(specifically for me higher than 800 agl with preserved airspeed(90 knots or more)). Other than that I will look for a landing area in front of me. Some of the airports I fly out of that means a cow pasture, others the beach or ocean, and others the interstate. However when I take off I am always doing a mental calculation of what if. At the end of the day, if I am uncertain I can make it back to the airport I would rather take my chances flying straight ahead or with slight turns, than taking the chances of a entering a low level spin to my death.
 
I had partial engine failure during take off and the airplane was shaking pretty violently. I kept climbing at near glide speed while turning to the cross runway. I knew my options and ended up doing a nice landing. Never forgetting about AOA and stall-spins. When we shutdown and get off the airplane everybody was staring at us like we were zombies. Total flight time was about 1 minute and a half. Time stretches, but I never tought about crashing or dying. I just naturally flew the emergency. LOL
 
A close friend of mine tried to turn around. He almost made it too. You can read about it here

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20101222X04851&ntsbno=ERA11FA094&akey=1
Sorry for the loss of your friend.

One striking (if off-topic) aspect of that brief is the account of the prior flight. A PP (not the accident pilot) with student pilot also on board flew nearly three hours round trip in a PA28, without visually determining fuel quantity before departure or when turning around, and the PP admits to a previous low fuel scare.
 
Common sense dictates that the "buttonhook" back to the runway is usually not a good idea.
To pull it off, you need to immediately recognize the problem, then instantly guess right about how your glide ratio, wing loading in the turn, distance from the threshold, and wind will affect such a plan. You also need to be sure that you're high enough to even contemplate it. And oh yeah, there may be traffic departing or landing behind you on the same runway. Even in a motorglider like the one in the video (which is optimized for, um, gliding), there are those other factors to consider.

Because of all this, most attempts don't work out well. Pilot takes too long to accept that the thrust is fading if not gone already, sits there slack-jawed with the plane still pitched and trimmed to climb at takeoff power, airplane slows down and may even start to descend even though the wing isn't fully stalled (yest). Next mistake is to pull back in order to claw for altitude, thus slowing the plane down more (and increasing the rate of descent), then (if the stall doesn't fully develop by then) desperately trying to "yank and bank" it back towards the runway... the result is very predictable to any pilot, but easy to forget when you're all "oh sh*t, the engine stopped!" Sadly, most pilots who've tried it have apparently forgotten all of the above, out of sheer panic.

So unless you're at some minimum altitude that you know will allow a safe turn around in whatever you're flying, and you have pitched for Vbg immediately, and you know the runway is clear and the wind won't cause a dangerous overshoot, you're better off not even considering the "impossible turn". The odds of having all those things lined up, and being aware of them in the very limited time available, are very slim.

Which is not to say you must not change heading at all... a shallow turn might be required to make a safe emergency landing with minimum damage and/or injury. You also might be able to use whatever thrust you have, if any, to help you get to such a place- a gamble, for sure, but obstacles or terrain might make an immediate descent unsafe. Whatever you decide, you have to avoid the temptation to pull the nose up to try to gain altitude. It's amazing how many pilots forget this.

The best practice is to just first pitch for Vbg, then look for a place you can see will work, based on what you've seen on any given final approach, especially a simulated engine-out. Sounds kinda like a typical engine-out training exercise done in cruising flight, doesn't it? That's because an engine-out is an engine-out, regardless of what mode of flight you're in, or where you are in relation to a runway.
If a downwind landing on the runway you just left falls within the category of "place you can see will work", then by all means turn around, keeping in mind that in a bank, the indicated stall speed will go up slightly. Remember also that in order for you to see that it will work, you have to know your altitude is sufficient, know the wind is not too strong, and know the runway and departure path are clear. I know that sounds impossible... that's why they call it the "impossible turn".
 
You turn back - you die.

These guys are planning the engine cut. This is not reality.

Train your muscle memory to instantly push the nose down at the first engine cough, and scan for a place to put it more or less in the 45 degree arc ahead - while your other hand is switching tanks, etc. trying to get the engine back.

This was not a takeoff failure, but shows the benefits of having a mental plan imbedded in muscle memory.
I had an instantaneous engine cut at Oshkosh just as I was turning final in the usual mob scene there. Instinctively I stuffed the nose down and began a sharp right bank towards the lake while I did tanks/pump/firewall/etc.
Controller was calling 'green bonanza what are you doing, turn left.'.
The guy with me was 'what are you doing?'
My single reply into the mic was 'crashing'. (they are listening even though they say they aren't.)
That got silence from both.
3 seconds later the engine came back, I made an ugly keyhole pattern back the threshold and landed at the spot they had originally called for.
Had I continued turning to the runway and the engine had not come back, we would have hit the houses and died. By instinctively turning to the open area (lake) 30 degrees to my right we might have lived.

That's yet another option, and a good call on your part. And you are proficient enough with your troubleshooting procedure to be able to go through it while still making sure that the airplane wouldn't cause any "collateral damage" if you couldn't restore power. Been flying gliders so much the last few years that I forgot that part...LOL.
But you have to be able to check all that stuff blindfolded, and quickly! It's not the time to rummage for the engine-out checklist, or be looking around the panel and controls. And of course, you have to keep flying throughout.
 
this is something trained regularly in gliders. sink rate and glide ratio matter. 100 feet is too low for me for training or real life. we usually have a 200 ft minimum. below 200 straight ahead, above 200 ahead or behind whichever is the best choice.

after years of training students i had what appeared to everyone as an actual tow failure that required a turn back last fall. the rope did not break of course but the towplane just sort of stopped climbing at 200 ft. i would've thought it was a local downdraft except for the black smoke that started streaming from the exhaust. About that time we were still at 200 and about to the end of our 7000 ft runway so i decided that if we wanted to make it back to the airport now was the time and he had his own problems to deal with.
 
Get an CFI, climb to 2000 agl and simulate the engine out and return to the runway. See what happens. See how much altitude you lose. Remember, it's NOT a 180 turn, it's a teardrop to get back to the runway.

I remember doing this in the Cherokee....I'm thinking it was 700' lose but that was at 250 lbs below gw.

The way we did it was go to about 5000' and start with a heading and then end up with as close to a tear drop 180 turn as possible and not the difference in altimeter.
 
There is no one correct answer to this for all aircraft or all situations. However, Prof. Dave Rogers' paper on this should provide food for thought on the subject. Read it, and then see what you think.

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/impossible_wide_screen.pdf

That said, in light single engine trainers, about 800 AGL is usually the minimum to execute this maneuver successfully if Prof. Rogers' techniques are followed precisely.

I've read Professor Rogers' papers before. Very interesting and informative.

Aside: I got to bum a ride in Professor Rogers' beautiful Bonanza that he used for some of the testing--one of my instructors is a good friend of his, and he has access to it. It has a little plaque in it showing a record run from Annapolis to Kitty Hawk with his and my instructor's name on it. Pretty cool!

Aside aside: I want a Bonanza. Badly.
 
If you are climbing at Vy in a typical light trainer would you still be within gliding distance of the airport by the time you reached a height necessary to pull off the imppossible turn?
 
If you are climbing at Vy in a typical light trainer would you still be within gliding distance of the airport by the time you reached a height necessary to pull off the imppossible turn?

depends on which typical light trainer you're flying. 150 loaded over gross on a 90 degree day? probably not.

also really depends on the wind. headwind steepens your climb angle but also flattens your glide back downwind. i really don't like turning back in a glider above 15 knots. for one its hard to get back down in time to get stopped before the end of the runway (especially behind a good towplane) plus landing with that much tailwind is a pain. above that i'd take a good off field landing into the wind if i had the choice.
 
Well, I think I will simply not even give this any thought. I think after reading this, the risk is just to great unless I have plenty of altitude. Thanks for all your feedback and links to info.
 
Common sense dictates that the "buttonhook" back to the runway is usually not a good idea.
To pull it off, you need to immediately recognize the problem, then instantly guess right...
If you have to guess, you didn't do your pretakeoff briefing/planning properly. Before you release brakes, you should already know the parameters for when you will be able to execute this maneuver safely. If not, then you shouldn't even try it, especially if you have to guess about whether you can make it.
 
In ANY airplane you should brief out loud your emergency take off procedure...exactly where you're going to take the airplane if you have no engine, and the minimum altitude you would even consider turning back....really should be on your checklist....when I flight instruct others it bothers me how many folks ignore this...

Absolutely.

In my simple bird I keep it simple, I add 1200 to the field elevation and call it out when I reach it on climb out (always working with MSL so no math). Otherwise I am going straight. Can it be done on less, maybe, I'm not taking a maybe.
 
If you are climbing at Vy in a typical light trainer would you still be within gliding distance of the airport by the time you reached a height necessary to pull off the imppossible turn?

That's a very important question, and one that mose people overlook.
 
If you have to guess, you didn't do your pretakeoff briefing/planning properly. Before you release brakes, you should already know the parameters for when you will be able to execute this maneuver safely. If not, then you shouldn't even try it, especially if you have to guess about whether you can make it.
Sure, it pays to consider your emergency options beforehand, and know what you can do with the airplane. It also pays to be aware of every factor in the immediate environment. But the one parameter you will never have available before takeoff is knowing exactly where you'll be when the takeoff climb cannot continue, whether due to engine failure (haven't dealt with that, knock wood) or losing the tow line in a glider (been there, done that).

So the guessing I'm talking about comes in that moment when you have to (very quickly) weigh what you know about the airplane, and what the altimeter and ASI are showing you, against what you can see in terms of your position, the wind, and traffic. It's basically too late for calculations at that point... and just knowing, for example, that you are at your personal minimum safe turnaround height is not going to be enough.
 
i really don't like turning back in a glider above 15 knots.
I'm not crazy about launching in wind like that! :D
I guess if it's right on the nose, maybe, but at 47N, if it's blowing harder than that, it's almost always a crosswind. :D
 
Two things:

1 - When you "train" the turnback, you aren't actually using the glide ratio of an engine out. The engine is still producing some power at idle. The second "turn back" on the video they *barely* made it, if the engine had actually be out, they'd have crashed.
If you're going to try it, plan on adding at least 25% to the minimum altitude for the lack of idle power.

2 - They knew it was coming. Go out sometime (with a CFI if you aren't comfortable alone), get to altitude, get the plane trimmed into a Vy (or better Vx) climb , in climb configuration, then pull power to idle.
Now, count "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three" for the reaction time of not being primed and ready for the engine out you know is coming, and look at your airspeed.
You will be WELL below best glide, and will have to *very* aggressively nose down to regain airspeed to get back to best glide. Now you're much closer to the "ground" (starting altitude) than you were.
So add another 25-30% to your minimum altitude for turnback.

Maneuvering close to the ground with no power and no options is not something I want to do. Controlled flight into the ground is generally survivable. Uncontrolled flight is generally not.
One you lose control of the plane, you're a passenger, not the pilot any more. Survival rates get very low at that point. I'll fly controlled into trees rather than uncontrolled into flat ground.

My opinion only, and it's worth what you paid for it. I am not a CFI, dont' play one on TV, and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

PS, if you really want to enforce airspeed discipline, go out and do the exercise in #2 and do a REAL departure stall with the engine at idle.
Get into climb configuration, simulate an engine out, count to three, then see how much longer it takes to stall (answer, not long at all).
Then do a no-power recovery in clean configuration, and see how much altitude it takes. That was an eye opener.
I now keep my speed up in the pattern, and am MUCH more careful about airspeed targets and bank angles.
 
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