Endorsements- What's the big deal

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Okay, I get it why one needs a tailwheel endorsement and can understand the need for complex and high altitude endorsements.

Can someone explain to me the reasons for the "high performance" endorsement? Why it was set at +200HP? What can a pilot flying a 200HP machine expect (handling-wise) going to a 201HP machine? Seems to me that HP/Weight ratio or even Top Speed should be considered in the regs but it isn't.

Enlighten me.
 
Because the FAA sez so. There is no logical rhyme or reason for the magic 200 number. Crazy thing is you can fly a 65hp tail dragger, get your endorsement, fly a 210 HP tricycle gear and get your high performance, and you are now good to fly a 450HP tail dragger - right into the weeds, cause that's where you are gonna end up. But you're legal!
 
For the high performance - there were probably good reasons at the time the reg was enacted, and it probably had something to do with either a single newsworthy accident, or a bunch of other accidents that seemed to indicate a trend.
 
I will say, however...that there are a couple of gotchas with flying a higher powered airplane that you don't have with a typical 160-180 hp trainer. For instance, after you trim it out for your landing, if you shove the throttle full forward to go around...you'll be very surprised at the amount of forward pressure that it takes to keep from pitching too far up. And, it happens fast.

For me, it was worth having to get the endorsement, because it gave me a good opportunity and environment to learn those lessons the easy way.
 
FlyNE said:
I will say, however...that there are a couple of gotchas with flying a higher powered airplane that you don't have with a typical 160-180 hp trainer. For instance, after you trim it out for your landing, if you shove the throttle full forward to go around...you'll be very surprised at the amount of forward pressure that it takes to keep from pitching too far up. And, it happens fast.
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Very much agreed. I always make sure to have my students demonstrate an elevator trim stall when I do high performance checkouts. In the Mooney it is pretty realistic because we essentially run out of nose up trim on short final and a full flap go around requires much greater forward pressure than one would expect.
 
Had to set the number somewhere and 200 is a nice round number that avoids the typical training planes.
 
Skylane81E said:
Had to set the number somewhere and 200 is a nice round number that avoids the typical training planes.
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I've been bouncing back and forth between a 180 hp Cherokee and a 225 hp Debonair. Honestly, from what I've seen...I think 200 hp is about the right number.
 
And there ought to be an endorsement for going the other way. Most of the folks who come to grief in LSAs are rated pilots who've never flown anything that light, or that lightly powered.

When you've been flying in one envelope for a long time, anything outside that envelope is different enough to warrant training.
 
TMetzinger said:
And there ought to be an endorsement for going the other way. Most of the folks who come to grief in LSAs are rated pilots who've never flown anything that light, or that lightly powered.

When you've been flying in one envelope for a long time, anything outside that envelope is different enough to warrant training.
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No kidding! I was getting checked out last fall in the Gobosh, the Remos and the LSA Formerly Known as the PiperSport, all with the Rotax engine.

1st panic attack - WHAT DO YA MEAN 5500 RPM?????!!!!???
2nd panic attack - Huh? And I thought my cherokee was a brick when I pulled power. It's an absolute glider compared to this!
3rd amazement - 2 people should never attempt to enter the PS at the same time - the tail crunches on the concrete.
4th delight - 45 deg bank turns with just a fingertip...
5th jealousy - I want a Dynon panel in my cherokee!
6h jealousy - Go pick up a quart of oil at Pep Boys and put half a quart in.
7th drool - 4-5 gph at about the same speed as the cherokee
8th brag - yeah, but I can put 1000 pounds of load in the cherokee. Come to think of it, I can almost put the entire LSA in the cherokee (If I take the LSA apart first)

I've got almost 800 hrs ASEL , 8 hours LSA and I will not fly LSA without an instructor along.
 
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You bring up some LSA merits. I think I may read up on them....
 
Jaybird180 said:
Can someone explain to me the reasons for the "high performance" endorsement? Why it was set at +200HP? What can a pilot flying a 200HP machine expect (handling-wise) going to a 201HP machine?
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I think the boundary is between 199.9 hp and 200 hp, not 200 and 201. This permits my FBO to offer hi-perf training in an Arrow.
-- P
 
zaitcev said:
I think the boundary is between 199.9 hp and 200 hp, not 200 and 201. This permits my FBO to offer hi-perf training in an Arrow.
-- P
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They may have set it at 200+ just for that reason. Arrows, Sierras, Cardinals, NA Mooneys all don't qualify. Flew a Mooney quite a bit but had to do the endorsement in a 182
 
murphey said:
No kidding! I was getting checked out last fall in the Gobosh, the Remos and the LSA Formerly Known as the PiperSport, all with the Rotax engine.
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You are so lucky to be able to get into all these. Gobosh' nasty dash gets me right under the knees and it hurts so bad. As for SportCruiser nee PiperSport, Eric was unable to close the canopy on my head, there was still 2 inches to go no matter how I play a turtle. BTW, where is the Evector?
 
Pete, it's FAR61.31(f)(1): (f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has...

So, 200.0hp is fine without an endorsement. That's why Cirrus SR-20's can be used as trainers without an endorsement (200hp).
 
It is unambiguous and Jay is right. I think now that the Arrow is used for complex endorsement, not high-performance.
 
murphey said:
5th jealousy - I want a Dynon panel in my cherokee!
6h jealousy - Go pick up a quart of oil at Pep Boys and put half a quart in.
7th drool - 4-5 gph at about the same speed as the cherokee
8th brag - yeah, but I can put 1000 pounds of load in the cherokee. Come to think of it, I can almost put the entire LSA in the cherokee (If I take the LSA apart first)
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GRT panels are nice too.
I have to use aviation oil but only 3 quarts per change.
I think I'm faster than a Cherokee :D
That be almost true depending on gas and pilot. I can do around 500#, so you'd have to put 800 in the cabin.

Did you see the Jabiru article in AOPA Pilot yet?
 
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zaitcev said:
I think the boundary is between 199.9 hp and 200 hp, not 200 and 201. This permits my FBO to offer hi-perf training in an Arrow.
-- P
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The limit is more than 200 hp. You can fly a 200 hp aircraft without a high performance. If someone is giving high performance endorsements in a 200 hp Arrow they shouldn't be.

See 61.31:
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.
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More than means exactly that. It has to be MORE than 200 hp.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Why it was set at +200HP? What can a pilot flying a 200HP machine expect (handling-wise) going to a 201HP machine?
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Jay, where would you set the limit? If you name a number, 1+ your number won't have any measurable difference once you are in the 200+ range.

So, it is arbitrary.

-Skip
 
The biggest benefit to the rather simple High performance and Complex endorsements is focus on the peculiarities.

Manifold pressure, RPM, detonation should all be part of the HP checkout, and gear, gear, gear should be the complex.

Tailwheel makes lots of sense -- though there are stories of folks "teaching" themselves. Not all end well.
 
murphey said:
No kidding! I was getting checked out last fall in the Gobosh, the Remos and the LSA Formerly Known as the PiperSport, all with the Rotax engine.

1st panic attack - WHAT DO YA MEAN 5500 RPM?????!!!!???
2nd panic attack - Huh? And I thought my cherokee was a brick when I pulled power. It's an absolute glider compared to this!
3rd amazement - 2 people should never attempt to enter the PS at the same time - the tail crunches on the concrete.
4th delight - 45 deg bank turns with just a fingertip...
5th jealousy - I want a Dynon panel in my cherokee!
6h jealousy - Go pick up a quart of oil at Pep Boys and put half a quart in.
7th drool - 4-5 gph at about the same speed as the cherokee
8th brag - yeah, but I can put 1000 pounds of load in the cherokee. Come to think of it, I can almost put the entire LSA in the cherokee (If I take the LSA apart first)

I've got almost 800 hrs ASEL , 8 hours LSA and I will not fly LSA without an instructor along.
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Why would you not fly a LSA w/out a instructor? While I have the majotiry of my time in my t182t I have 150 in my old Jabiru and loved it. The cub replicas are great as well.

I would prefer a new LSA (Jabiru, Remos, CLT, American Legend, Cub Crafters) over about any old GA plane from the 60's or 70's.

Back to the OP the number has to be somewhere so why not 200?
 
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dennyleeb said:
Why would you not fly a LSA w/out a instructor? While I have the majotiry of my time in my t182t I have 150 in my old Jabiru and loved it. The cub replicas are great as well.

I would take a LSA (Jabiru, Remos, CLT, American Legend, Cub Crafters) over about any old GA plane from the 60's or 70's.

Back to the OP the number has to be somewhere so why not 200?
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I think he was saying that 8 hours of dual was not enough yet for him to feel comfortable soloing in the LSA. I think that's a good attitude.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think he was saying that 8 hours of dual was not enough yet for him to feel comfortable soloing in the LSA. I think that's a good attitude.
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How serious are you about this? Murphey is an experienced pilot, flying a Cherokee 180 currently. I have much less experience (also in Cherokee, coincidentially - a 140), and yet the gentleman who owns N28GX, a Remos GX, inducted me into renters after a 2-hour flight. He is a CFI as well. He me made me demonstrate crosswind landings, engine-out procedures, and some basic airwork: steep turns, stalls. Thereafter he declared me safe to rent his airplane. Surely Murphey offers less risk.

Edit: I thought the phrase "I will not fly an LSA without an instructor" meant a refusal to jump into an unknown type and taxi for takeoff, rather than not flying any LSA at all.
 
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TMetzinger said:
And there ought to be an endorsement for going the other way. Most of the folks who come to grief in LSAs are rated pilots who've never flown anything that light, or that lightly powered.

When you've been flying in one envelope for a long time, anything outside that envelope is different enough to warrant training.
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One baby step further would be type ratings for LSAs. It sure looks like you advocate increased regulation. :mad2:
 
Seems like some of these things are arbitrary but also justified.
You could imagine a bureaucrat making a requirement for each incremental in change in performance or flight characteristic so "201hp" is not so bad. I was slightly amazed when I passed my ME that I could hop into a turboprop without a type rating or any other checkout. That was a quantum leap for me. It still amazes me.Of course, with autofeather it takes a big bite out of the problem.
 
Y'all need to fly a Beech D17 or a Cessna 195. You need a high perf. endorsement, really. Push up the power and you'll end up in the weeds. Lift the tail befire its time, and into the weeds on the left side. T-6 Texan, same deal. Torque and P; Really relevant to these birds.

The line is going to be arbitrary wherever you put it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But are you insured?

Fortunately, insurance companies tend to prevent the gaps in the FARs from wreaking greater havoc.
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Where do the FARs require insurance? If you pay cash for the plane, what requires you to have insurance?
 
EdFred said:
Where do the FARs require insurance? If you pay cash for the plane, what requires you to have insurance?
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Not a damn thing.

Unless the place you keep it at requires insurance. And if you own your own hangar that's not an issue either...

Unless your landlord requires you have it. But that's not a problem if you own your own airstrip.....
 
TMetzinger said:
I think he was saying that 8 hours of dual was not enough yet for him to feel comfortable soloing in the LSA. I think that's a good attitude.
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I done my solo at 8 hrs. If I had 800 and could not get checked out in a very simple plane I would be worried.
 
ejensen said:
I have to use aviation oil but only 3 quarts per change.
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Any recip burning 100LL should be using aviation oil. The difference isn't between the engines, the difference is between the fuels actually in use and their byproducts of combustion.
 
Doggtyred said:
Not a damn thing.

Unless the place you keep it at requires insurance. And if you own your own hangar that's not an issue either...

Unless your landlord requires you have it. But that's not a problem if you own your own airstrip.....
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Exactly. Which is why I have no clue why someone brought up insurance.
 
I have not read the entire thread, so I may not be on the right track at all, but as far as insurance goes, I would say insurance really does rule higher than the FAA does.

Yes, you don't legally have to have insurance, but if you DO want insurance, i'm sure they'll gonna require some additional requirements on top of the minimum FAA requirements. Any rental operation is probably going to have insurance, requiring all their pilots to have x hours.

Insurance is playing a pretty big role in all the FAA FAR changes I believe. Example being, changing regulations to allow an instructor to be on board during what used to be solo flight time, because insurance wouldnt allow someone to fly a certain type of plane solo at that experience level.

I am still really learning how all those factors come into play, but that is my very vague understanding of why insurance matters.
 
We had a big debate over this issue on the former Piper Owners Society forum. The PA28R 200 is a no brainer. It's a 200 hp engine. The PA28R 201T is another issue, TCM rates the TSIO 360 at over 200 hp per it's own specification sheets.
 
Sac Arrow said:
We had a big debate over this issue on the former Piper Owners Society forum. The PA28R 200 is a no brainer. It's a 200 hp engine. The PA28R 201T is another issue, TCM rates the TSIO 360 at over 200 hp per it's own specification sheets.
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What does the afm/TCDS say? That is what will rule. Installation may influence HP.
 
Sac Arrow said:
We had a big debate over this issue on the former Piper Owners Society forum. The PA28R 200 is a no brainer. It's a 200 hp engine. The PA28R 201T is another issue, TCM rates the TSIO 360 at over 200 hp per it's own specification sheets.
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Same with the Seneca II. The engines are 200hp at sea level, but can develop something like 215hp at 8,000 feet and thus they require the high performance endorsement.

One point of confusion with Arrows for many people - The hershey-wing Cherokees, including the Arrow I and II, all had the HP of the engine after the dash in the model number. PA28-180, PA28R-200, etc. The later taper-wing ones have model numbers like PA28-181 (Archer), PA28R-201 (Arrow III), etc. so some folks think you need your HP endorsement to fly an Arrow III because it says "201." However, the engine on a PA28R-201 is still 200hp even.
 
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