Emergency Straight in or Spiral down?

[rmciottijr]

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

 

[SkyHog]

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

By straight in, do you mean nose over and dive to the runway, hoping to burn off excess energy in the flare? Then its a no brainer, spiral in. If you mean you could make a normal straight in approach, I'd probably do a straight in.

 

[rmciottijr]

normal (without and engine) straight in approach

 

[ScottM]

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

I assume by 'straight in' you mean fly to the airport directly and perform a fairly normal type approach, maybe doing a slip to get down.

I think the answer is it depends.

Here in the midwest you might fly staight to an airport or if you are over one you would spiral. If you need to do an off airport you could pick a spot and do the straight or circle as appropriate.

Once when I wanted to fly while I was in San Diego I got a plane and an instructor and went up to do an houir of airwork for wings credit and then sightsee. We were in the mountain areas and the CFI said to me "Ok midwestern boy lets see an engine out drill" and he pulled the throttle.

Of course the only way to hit the landing spot was to spiral down.

Scott

 

[jesse]

Spiral.

I had to demonstrate this on my check ride, and I also enjoy doing it just for fun.

Get some altitude and pull the power.. Glide to the field and then do spirals around it. Keep yourself within the runway, keep it tight. then land.

Remember keep the wind in mind, It's all too easy to have a major headwind and not be able to make the runway.

Now I'll show you my amazing drawing skills. This is what I had to demonstrate on my private check ride, and how I practice, and what I would do in real life.

 

[Henning]

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

It's completely situational. What is required to manage the energy available to you to make whatever field. In order for me to spiral, I need a lot of excess energy. If I'm over a runway and I have to come down 3000', I'll spiral. If I have to make a runway a fair ways off, but I'm obviously too high, I'll scrub altitude a bit at a time with scattered S-turns still leaving myself high for a slip on short final when I have the numbers made.

 

[Lance F]

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

rm, that was me. Henning is right, the answer is situational. I chose a sure thing below me (I did 2 spirals over the landing strip once I found it.) rather than stretching out a glide to an airport 15 miles or so straight in front of me that I did not have in sight. What you do not want to do is run out of airspeed, altitude and ideas without someplace landable under you. For example, you're over farm fields and have an engine failure. You "think" you can make an an airport, but it's in the middle of a heavily populated area. Suppose there's a little more headwind than you expected or you really don't know your airplane's glide capabilities, and you end up a half mile short of the runway. You're in deep do-do.

The answer is take the sure thing. I know from my soaring competition days that a long final glide must be planned and monitored very carefully, something that is pretty tough to do in an emergency situation.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm with Henning and Lance -- it's all situations.

 

[jesse]

Well . Like the others said it's going to change per situation.

Now if I loose my engine. Look straight ahead and theres the perfect landing spot. I'm slightly high. I'd just slip it in. If that didn't work S turns w/ slipping. Whatever it took.

BUT. If I make the field, and have excess altitude. I'll spiral directly over the center of the field...Never leaving it's safety.

You only get one shot at it.

 

[Richard]

...Now I'll show you my amazing drawing skills. This is what I had to demonstrate on my private check ride, and how I practice, and what I would do in real life.

Oh, Jesse. Now you've given us ample reason for a new topic. We'll call your drawing, Exhibit #1.

Looking at the drawing, are you sure that is exactly the way you demonstrated it on your checkride?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The question is too simple for real flying and all situations.

All other things being equal (which they rarely are), the straight in should be less complicated and therefore more desireable, assuming it can be done at all in the given geography and altitude.

 

[jesse]

Oh, Jesse. Now you've given us ample reason for a new topic. We'll call your drawing, Exhibit #1.

Looking at the drawing, are you sure that is exactly the way you demonstrated it on your checkride?

Uhm.
I'm pretty sure

 

[EdFred]

Hmmmm...I would spiral close to the approach end instead of going over the whole field and coming down on top of the traffic pattern.

 

[jesse]

Hmmmm...I would spiral close to the approach end instead of going over the whole field and coming down on top of the traffic pattern.

Hmm not sure. He drew it out for me on paper what he wanted. Stick between the runway numbers.. Keep it tight, Don't wander away from the runway. There was also a spot on the runway he wanted me to hit. I'm not sure any of this is part of the PTS for private pilot.. But I did it anyway.

I ended up coming up about 30 feet short of the point so I hit full flaps which gave me enough lift to get those last few feet.

 

[Lance F]

Hmmmm...I would spiral close to the approach end instead of going over the whole field and coming down on top of the traffic pattern.

I like the spiral over the field with left turns. With no engine you do not want to lose sight of your committed landing point no matter what. That makes you even more nervous. Jesse's drawing is spot on in my book.

 

[fgcason]

Hmmmm...I would spiral close to the approach end instead of going over the whole field and coming down on top of the traffic pattern.

The altitudes where you're spiraling down from will mostly be above the traffic pattern so other planes shouldn't be a problem. Once you do get down to pattern altitude, you're going to be near the approach end playing dodge the airplanes anyway. That's where the other pilots are often heads down flipping switches and levers or looking over at the runway and not watching where they're going. Ideally you're going to cross through roughly that block of air anyway.

Circling the entire airport keeps the airport in view at all times. It also gives you more options for putting down on the runway if you blow your descent rate calculations. Crossing 1/4 of the way from the end and 270 deg off the runway heading in the turn and are too low or the wind is blowing harder than you thought, you're going to have way too much fun trying to hit the numbers. OTOH If you're circling the entire airport in the same situation with inadequate energy, instead of setting down short of the runway in the lake, you can try for a midfield touchdown and not bend anything when you come up short.


IMHO for a straight in with no engine, that is a last resort situation where the airport is near the maximum glide range with no other options. Most of the time there's really no good reason for hanging out descending over a forest if you can do the same thing over top the airport that you're trying to land on. It's all about insuring you don't run out of energy before the landing is a done deal.

Way too many variables involved for a generic solution however that's my two marbles worth...

 

[Richard]

I like the spiral over the field with left turns. With no engine you do not want to lose sight of your committed landing point no matter what. That makes you even more nervous. Jesse's drawing is spot on in my book.

You're gonna' lose sight unless you're making a pylon turn and such manuevering is improbable given the engine out conditions.

I would modify Jesse's drawing to put the spiral on the upwind side of the intended landing point. As drawn, it does not allow for as much consideration of wind as the approach to the side would allow.

 

[jesse]

You're gonna' lose sight unless you're making a pylon turn and such manuevering is improbable given the engine out conditions.

I don't see how you loose sight.

I practice this all the time. It's a continous turn / spiral down.

I want to be OVER my landing point. The spiral allows you to feel the wind out, You'll have it all figured out for your final downwind to final turn.

 

[Richard]

(snip) ...Way too many variables involved for a generic solution however that's my two marbles worth...

agreed. it doesn't matter how it's done nearly as much as that it was a positive outcome.

But what method has the consistently best chance of a positive outcome? Is there such a method which proves reliable all the time?

 

[jesse]

It doesn't really matter how you do it.. in the end.

It just matters that you CAN do it.

So practice. practice. practice.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Time = Options

Spiral

I was reading a post about losing your engine in flight and the pilot (sorry forgot who it was) had a plan to land at an airport a few miles away. Tower came back and said he had a runway behind him about a mile away. He turned around and made a safe landing great job. If this pilot was going to make it to the runway miles away but ended up landing at an airport a mile away that means he had extra altitude. My poll is about how people would like to make an emergency landing. Straight in or spiral down to downwind or final? Spiral down for me.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It doesn't really matter how you do it.. in the end.

It just matters that you CAN do it.

So practice. practice. practice.

With that in mind, I always listen to traffic coming into BFI and when it's clear for a minute will ask tower for a mid-field base for 31R. That is, when granted, cross over the parallel 31L at mid field just South of the tower (used essentially as a pylon) while descending and slowing as much as possible by all available means and turning onto final for 31R which is nearly abeam the tower.

It's great practice for the emergency sim LDG from a spiral and a blast, too plus, the tower likes to watch them. Similar sims can be done from a tight downwind.

 

[Dave Langton]

I don't think there is a single correct answer that will cover even MOST contingincies. It all depends on the circumstances of the moment. I will always try to keep heading changes to a minimum since turns = lost energy. Every incident is a different altitude/distance equation.

 

[Bones]

Ahahah who knows!?

Hmmmm....well its my opinion the thing about being an aviator is if you do it long enough, there is not 1 sure way to do something every time and expect that same result, you must be flexible.

It all depends on the situation, the variables and the day to which technique YOU decide to use. In the end I would try to make the decision that I felt would result in me walking away safely, whatever it takes.

Incidently back when I was teaching I had a forced landing in a piper cherokee; landed on a Par 3 and walked away thank god. I second guessed myself quite a bit but what I ended up with was this. As long as you do your best with what you got and what you KNOW I think you will be as safe as possilbe.

And try not to listen to the critics...someone will always tell you "What you should have done was..." Screw that! Put them in the same situation and they can do whatever the hell they want. If no one gets hurt thats all that really matters in my book. You are the one in the cockpit under the pressure, and unique conditions, and the PIC, not the monday morning quarterbacks. You are the PIC...buck up and do your best...just fly the airplane, thats your best bet!

Ohhh....and of cousre. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE....its your life man.

 

[rmciottijr]

Well that’s what I was looking for different views. Like other said I understand it all depends. I just wanted to see what other people would say and do. I would still like to spiral to downwind or final. If this ever happens lets hope we have all the altitude we need.


Thanks,
Bob

 

[Henning]

Well that’s what I was looking for different views. Like other said I understand it all depends. I just wanted to see what other people would say and do. I would still like to spiral to downwind or final. If this ever happens lets hope we have all the altitude we need.


Thanks,
Bob

5'. Three times in, and all 3 times I've had 5 feet. Walked away each time, and the airplanes were repaired. You don't need altitude, you just need to fly the airplane till it comes to a stop and make the best out of the situation you're in. What you are looking for is the most gradual decelleratio you can get, and try to keep you're inertia stable about as many axis as you can as you shed off energy. If you've managed to keep your energy shedding below 7gs, you're probably walking away, 12-15 and you may still live. Over 17gs, you're pretty much dead. So if you can keep enough control to keep the plane going forward wings level tail down and not yawing best as you can till you're slow enough that you loose control authority, you'll live. If you realize that you arent going to make it over the tree line, yet try to stretch it over.... that may not be as good of an idea as heading for the deck and going through the canopy at fence height. Yes, the airplane WILL be totalled. When the engine dies on a single engine airplane, it has already been written off. The safety of life on board may require the sacrafice of metal/wood/fabric... whatever, it's only a bonus to save it. However by trying to save the plane, the chances are just to high, that if you do get in the tops of the trees, you may lose control of your inertia with a lot left and a long way to the ground, not the seat I'd like to be in. If I control the plane properly, I can steady up the planes inertia on a path through the trees, canopy, underbrush... where my energy will be greatly absorbed befor I either hit a large massive immovable object or, come out the othe side and drop a very short distance to the ground having most of my energy spent before final decelleration. All in all a more survivable bet.

I always see the posts and hear the discussions of how to handle emergencies, even at the 135 level, but the discussion rarely turns on how to crash. It is nice to be able to avoid, but sometimes you can't. Wish for altitude, but fly for energy management, use what you have to your best advantage, and that includes sacraficing the plane for your life should you have to. Planes are pretty well built, I've cleaned up a lot of wrecks where people lived and I was surprised anyone could have, but they don't always.

Sorry for the rant, just another of my peeves with the flight instruction system. "This is the way to do this", that is how most flight instruction is carried out and that is the way the people who run the systems (FAA, JAA, CASA...) like it. The problem I see though is for the most part is that the persons being tasked with passing on critical thinking and decision making aren't very experienced in it themselves. Lets face it, it's not situations most pilots face, and peole that have gone the CFI time builder route have not had many hrs and are typically in decently maintained ships.

 

[judypilot]

Well, I wanted to vote "it depends", but it wouldn't let me. I see I'm not alone. In many of the situations I fly in, spiral down might be the only option, since the terrain makes straight in difficult to impossible, depending how long you define "straight". If I have an engine out, I sure don't want to be winding my way down a valley in search of an invisible threshold.

Judy

 

[AirBaker]

...as you shed off energy.

However by trying to save the plane...

Good points. Both parts. I'd rather rip the gear off the plane than my own legs...

In one sense, I'd almost rather do a straight in if possible. I voted for the spiral. However, if I was lucky enough to find a straight strech of runway or even dirt, I'd like to trim up the airplane, breathe, and focus on getting the plane down safely.

 

[jesse]

The problem I see with making it straight in, It's MUCH harder to tell if you are going to make it or not.

If you have a ton of altitude. I think it'd be a terrible mistake to be on final doing S-turns and circling.

I see it as a good way to end up being too short. Or wayyy too high. You can slip quite a bit, but still a lot of engine loss scenarios end up with the pilot overshooting.

Get yourself OVER your landing target and then spiral for it. You know you've got it made. Don't let yourself get too far from it. You're golden. This was my DE's view on my checkride. If you are over it, You have it.

of course this is all my opinion. you can choose to handle this any way you'd like. but if I have altitude to lose you'll see me over my landing target spiraling. You'll also see me land perfectly, get out, and have my passengers thanking me. You will see this because I practice this. I stay proficient at this. I *know* what I can do, what the airplane can do, and what it will take to go home in one piece.

Like other said. FLY the airplane. Don't ever give up.

 

[AirBaker]

The problem I see with making it straight in, It's MUCH harder to tell if you are going to make it or not.

If I'm cutting it that close, I'm going to circle.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

One time was gliding in for keeps in a Turbo 182 RG with engine out to the ground at ~5500 MSL with a straight-in presenting, so I took it with the gear down and locked.

It was hot, high and we were heavy so commin' down & forward plenty fast. I guess I must have been a little tunnel visioned or not that good of a pilot or something because just about 30 feet AGL, I see & realize I've gotta go under these powerlines along side a road, perpendicular to my path. That would be no big deal except that it was Labor Day weekend (busy traffic) and the road was at the crest of a hill beyond visual range of motorists so I couldn't justify the risk of collision therefore immediately lowered the nose into ground effect and banked hard right 70-80 degrees north just above the ground and down to skiddown in a softly vegetated looking swill.

In reality the 18" tangle of weeds (thick & strong) sheared the nose wheel off but no injuries to speak of. There was also a duster's strip about 1/4 mile beyond my best possible glide slope taunting.

 

[jdwatson]

I did steep spirals for my commercial in a very similar way to "Exhibit 1".

In an emergency where one needed to lose altitude in a hurry, once you've established the emergency descent air speed add a steep bank. You'll lose that altitude (look at that VSI) at a faster rate. We made sweeping spirals and got nearly 2000' FPM in a 172RG w/o getting into the yellow.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[TDKendall]

Thought provoking question that everyone else pretty much covered with the "depends alot on the situation" answers. But, now that the question has been brought up, I'm going to practice it the safest way I possibly can....in the flight sim!

 

[Henning]

Thought provoking question that everyone else pretty much covered with the "depends alot on the situation" answers. But, now that the question has been brought up, I'm going to practice it the safest way I possibly can....in the flight sim!

DO NOT practice it so much that you come up with a formula for it, situations like that are what keep people in cockpits. There are people who would like that to end, remember 9/11 couldn't have happened with autonomous aircraft.