Emergency Declarartion Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Palmpilot

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Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Apparently, it is no longer possible to say that declaring an emergency has no downside. On another forum, it's being reported that in some areas of the country, emergency declarations are triggering fishing expeditions by the FAA, apparently looking for violations which may or may not be related to the original problem. :mad:

http://www.aero-farm.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=391907&an=0&page=0#Post391907

In the case of the original poster, tower personnel declared an emergency because the pilot reported an electrical problem. The cause turned out to be a failed alternator. Now they have a FSDO inspector digging through logbooks to see if all ADs have been complied with, etc.

Is this kind of activity going to deter pilots from declaring emergencies, or even from letting ATC know there is a problem?
 
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Seems an isolated incident. If it were common practice, I'd think twice before declaring.
 
I would like to see AOPA or similar do a little investigation here. Given the source (an internet message board) who knows what really happened, so I can't judge too much based on one story. For all I know the FSDO was already familiar with this guy or his plane and knew something was fishy from the beginning.

On the other hand, if we take it at face value it's pretty stupid.
 
To the pilot in question, yes ATC can declare an emergency in your situation. Always been that case. Yes, you will get a call from an FAA inspector assigned to investigate. I had a pleasant conversation with the guy who was assigned to my incident. I don't think it's normal practice to be requesting BFR / maint logs though.
 
No news here. Over twenty years ago I had to squawk 7700 and turn off the electrical system due to smoke in the cabin, then dive from FL390 to a landing at LAL sans radio. Following light signals to the ramp, my passengers weren't even out of the plane yet when I was told I had a phone call in the office. It was ORL FSDO asking for my name, the copilot's name, date of my last medical, etc. Probably twenty years before that a local lawyer made a gear-up landing and the FAA's first question was to see his medical and license.

I've never been one to easily utter the "E" word myself. These days, I guess you don't even need to. I think I'd have referred the FAA to go see the declaree (not that it would help of course).

dtuuri
 
Note that the pilot didn't declare, ATC did.

I wonder if the pilot did one of these little verbal dances with ATC that boil down to "I need to land now, but really, there isn't a problem".

To me, that sort of silliness makes it sound like the pilot has something to hide.
 
Re: Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Banjo33 said:
Seems an isolated incident. If it were common practice, I'd think twice before declaring.
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In the second post of that thread, the claim is made that "It's been like this for years around NY, BDL and FRG FSDOs." The author of that post is an attorney and aviation author, and has always seemed level-headed to me.

Personally, I've never heard a single word from the FAA about any of my emergencies, but it's been a few years since I've had one. Also, I've never flown in the areas where this is said to be happening.
 
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Re: Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

JimNtexas said:
I wonder if the pilot did one of these little verbal dances with ATC that boil down to "I need to land now, but really, there isn't a problem".
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Well, what the pilot says is

"I told the controller I had an electrical problem and needed an immediate return to Bridgeport. He gave me an initial heading, cleared me down to 5,000 and asked if I wanted to declare an emergency. I declined. He asked me souls-on-board and fuel which I gave him."​

:dunno:
 
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Palmpilot said:
Well, what the pilot says is
"I told the controller I had an electrical problem and needed an immediate return to Bridgeport. He gave me an initial heading, cleared me down to 5,000 and asked if I wanted to declare an emergency. I declined. He asked me souls-on-board and fuel which I gave him."​
:dunno:
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ATC will handle that as an emergency every day of the week and twice on Sunday, whether the pilot calls it an emergency or not. And if you need an immediate return due to an electrical problem, I'm pretty sure that meets the P/CG definition of an emergency.
 
Re: Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Ron Levy said:
ATC will handle that as an emergency every day of the week and twice on Sunday, whether the pilot calls it an emergency or not. And if you need an immediate return due to an electrical problem, I'm pretty sure that meets the P/CG definition of an emergency.
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I agree.
 
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Pilots are dumb. If you NEED an IMMEDIATE landing its an emergency. If you're too chicken to do your job and declare don't be supprised if someone steps in and does YOUR job for you.

I recently heard ATC declare for some regional. They were at 17K and were asking repeatedly for lower. ATC couldn't give it to them for traffic. Finally they admitted they were losing the cabin and ATC then declared for them and cleared them down.

That was a 121 flight with pax! They put those people in danger because they had the same attitude being discussed here. Declare the freaking emergency and stop being a puss. If ya wanna be a pilot then you have to be a big boy and make real decisions. If that's too much for you then fly flight Sim and never declare.
 
Over my career I have declared emergencies 4 or 5 times. After 2 or 3 of those incidents I received a phone call from the FSDO simply asking what happened. In each and every case, that was the end of it. Now, if there was a "FAA fishing expedition" launched after that particular instance, I would have to believe that it might be warranted. If the airplane was properly maintained and documented, there is nothing to fear.
 
Ron Levy said:
You won't always get that call, but if you do, it's normally the FAASTeam Manager at the FSDO, not a regular line inspector.
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Don't know what his official title was for the FAA. Just wanted to know details of the occurrence that he actually ended up logging as an incident. Didn't matter anyway. The call was completely harmless. Once we both found out that we flew H-60s for our day jobs, it ended up being a conversation talking shop.
 
Palmpilot said:
In the second post of that thread, the claim is made that "It's been like this for years around NY, BDL and FRG FSDOs." The author of that post is an attorney and aviation author, and has always seemed level-headed to me.

Personally, I've never heard a single word from the FAA about any of my emergencies, but it's been a few years since I've had one. Also, I've never flown in the areas where this is said to be happening.
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WOW....

I have been flying almost 35 years and have never used the E word even once... That includes all the test flights in the first 50 hours of dialing in my experimental / deathtrap... There were numerous white knuckle situations, but the tower controllers here know my voice very well and they knew when it was time to " clear the runway" for my immediate return...:yesnod:
 
Losing an alternator in a GA plane is an "emergency" now? lol

If you're in solid IMC, perhaps -- but that doesn't sound like the case here. (At least, its not mentioned. Anyone know?)

I've lost my electrical system three times in 20 years -- once at night, approaching MSP in a clapped out rental Apache. It never occurred to anyone (including ATC) that we should declare an emergency. As the OP did, we simply shed electrical load, used our handheld radio, and landed. As we were trained to do.

In every case we were VFR, it was a non-event, and the FAA apparently had better things to do with their time.
 
I never said an electrical issue was anything. I just said if you NEED an IMMEADIATE landing then chances are pretty good you have an emergency.

The threshold to determine if your situation is an emergency or not is pretty simple:

Ask yourself, "Is the safe outcome of this flight in any doubt?"

If the answer is yes then declare and get help. If the answer is no then chill the heck out and stop demanding IMMEADIATE anything from ATC.
 
I've declared a few times, when asked if I wanted equipment rolled I said "Yes thanks, I might just **** this up yet." All I've ever gotten was a 'number to call when you're settled' which was just the basics of my info and a brief rundown of what happened and how it concluded and if there were any injuries (never had to say yes to that). Never went further than that. Personally I think they'd rather see you declare than have to declare for you, it shows poor judgement on your part.
 
Henning said:
I've declared a few times, when asked if I wanted equipment rolled I said "Yes thanks, I might just **** this up yet." All I've ever gotten was a 'number to call when you're settled' which was just the basics of my info and a brief rundown of what happened and how it concluded and if there were any injuries (never had to say yes to that). Never went further than that. Personally I think they'd rather see you declare than have to declare for you, it shows poor judgement on your part.
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That couldn't be more true. I would rather know what a pilot has going on, and know his or her intentions, than have to declare an emergency for a pilot looking to "avoid paperwork."
 
MarkZ said:
That couldn't be more true. I would rather know what a pilot has going on, and know his or her intentions, than have to declare an emergency for a pilot looking to "avoid paperwork."
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It's all that curiosity at that moment that makes some pilots reluctant to "declare". They want time to assess the situation, not have to answer, "How many souls onboard? Fuel on board? Nature of your emergency? Etc." All they might know is that the present plan needs amending ASAP and they need some quiet time to sort things out.

dtuuri
 
Velocity173 said:
Yes, you will get a call from an FAA inspector assigned to investigate.
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I've declared two emergencies and gotten zero phone calls about them. The first emergency I declared did have the airport police come by and ask me for some general info, but that was it.
 
dtuuri said:
It's all that curiosity at that moment that makes some pilots reluctant to "declare". They want time to assess the situation, not have to answer, "How many souls onboard? Fuel on board? Nature of your emergency? Etc." All they might know is that the present plan needs amending ASAP and they need some quiet time to sort things out.

dtuuri
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Thing is, when you declare you may be presented with options that you have to thought of that will help you decide in the form of a "Would you like vectors to that runway 3 miles behind you?" type question.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've lost my electrical system three times in 20 years -- once at night, approaching MSP in a clapped out rental Apache. It never occurred to anyone (including ATC) that we should declare an emergency. As the OP did, we simply shed electrical load, used our handheld radio, and landed. As we were trained to do.
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You were never concerned about safety of your aircraft during any of those events? Not even during a total electrical failure at night? Your concern threshold is clearly much higher than mine.

Let's review some definitions here. Emergency means "

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.
DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.
(See ICAO term URGENCY.)
URGENCY [ICAO]- A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of person on board or in sight, but which does not require immediate assistance.

Too many folks seem to think that using the word "Emergency" is going to immediately and inevitably result in some sort of FAA inquisition, and that it should therefore be reserved only if you are sure you are going to die if you don't use it.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

This word merely communicates to ATC the fact that something is wrong in a way which may compromise safety. Any pilot facing a total electrical failure at night who says s/he is not concerned about the safety of his/her aircraft is fooling nobody but him/herself. Use of this term opens up a wide range of assistance tools which are not otherwise available, and allows the controller to make appropriate plans to assist you. Playing "I've got a secret" with controllers about an inflight problem only makes it harder for them to help and more likely that things will end badly. The old wives' tales about FAA inquisitions over mere use of the word "emergency" are without foundation, and serve only to make it more likely that someone will make a really bad decision about using that word in the future. Saying you have flown for several decades without ever having used the word "emergency" shows only that you have a false sense of bravado and very poor judgment (or you are the luckiest pilot I have ever met).
 
Ron Levy said:
You won't always get that call, but if you do, it's normally the FAASTeam Manager at the FSDO, not a regular line inspector.
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Wrong.

Emergencies are reported as a Pilot Deviation through the ATQA (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) system by the controller. Then it is assigned to the local FSDO to complete the forms. See Notice N8020.181

The assigned Inspector will complete the form with information obtained and close out the file.

The FAASTeam manager only gets involved if there is a question of pilot competency and the assigned Inspector request his assistance. The couple of times I tried to get the FAASTeam guy to assist it was always replied to as "I'm too busy, sorry". :rolleyes:
 
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Wasn't there a Letter to Airmen last year that announced the FAA (FSDO) would be taking more interest in aircraft emergencies? Our local tower advised us that they are "required" to report all emergencies to FSDO for follow up.
 
BillTIZ said:
Wasn't there a Letter to Airmen last year that announced the FAA (FSDO) would be taking more interest in aircraft emergencies? Our local tower advised us that they are "required" to report all emergencies to FSDO for follow up.
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This is a function of ATQA which is coming from the ATC side of the house.
 
I ever feel the need I won't hesitate to declare. I'd rather have FAA personnel poking questions at me than mortuary personnel arranging my corpse.
 
Captain said:
The threshold to determine if your situation is an emergency or not is pretty simple:

Ask yourself, "Is the safe outcome of this flight in any doubt?"

If the answer is yes then declare and get help.
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I should start declaring when I request my take-off clearance :D
 
When I was flying home from a $100 hamburger run yesterday on ATC flight following, I heard Norcal ask a Seneca "are you declaring an emergency". The Seneca came back and said "no, not at this time. It looks like we have lost a couple of cylinders. If we could get expedited, though, that would be great...."
 
Re: Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Captain said:
I never said an electrical issue was anything. I just said if you NEED an IMMEADIATE landing then chances are pretty good you have an emergency.

The threshold to determine if your situation is an emergency or not is pretty simple:

Ask yourself, "Is the safe outcome of this flight in any doubt?"

If the answer is yes then declare and get help. If the answer is no then chill the heck out and stop demanding IMMEADIATE anything from ATC.
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I certainly agree that pilots need to put safety above fear of bureaucratic hassles and possible enforcement action, and declare when needed. However, I think it's important for FSDOs to recognize that pilots are human beings, and that putting pilots and/or owners of private aircraft under a microscope for things as minor as a failed alternator is not wise public policy, because it will tempt some pilots to keep ATC in the dark about problems.
 
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BillTIZ said:
Wasn't there a Letter to Airmen last year that announced the FAA (FSDO) would be taking more interest in aircraft emergencies? Our local tower advised us that they are "required" to report all emergencies to FSDO for follow up.
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I would really like to know what the FAA position is on this, and also what the guidance is within ATC to controllers as to when to treat a potential in-flight problem as an emergency.

I posted some while ago about a precautionary landing I made in upstate NY due to what proved to be a temporary (and irreproducible) fuel gauge glitch. ATC rolled the trucks for me against my express wishes and reported the event to the Rochester FSDO. The ASI who investigated my case said that ATC was required to file paperwork anytime a flight is forced (understood to be due to some abnormal condition) to land short of its intended destination. On the Red Board C'Ron said that this is not true, and indeed someone else posted that according to their local tower, it is the declaration of an emergency (whether by ATC or the pilot) that triggers the paperwork, and R&W said here that emergencies are treated as a Pilot Deviation and reported to the FSDO.

So when is an in-flight event reportable? And how much discretion does ATC have in the matter? Is any event where there is information to suggest a malfunction of equipment or biology that forces a flight to land short of its destination treated as an emergency?
 
At KAUS the tower will report any emergency or priority flight to the FSDO. In the one case where this happened to my friend there wasn't really a hassel, the FSDO just called and asked for the pilot's version of the story.

Nothing further happened. No logbook colonsophy.
 
azure said:
So when is an in-flight event reportable? And how much discretion does ATC have in the matter? Is any event where there is information to suggest a malfunction of equipment or biology that forces a flight to land short of its destination treated as an emergency?
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JimNtexas said:
At KAUS the tower will report any emergency or priority flight to the FSDO. In the one case where this happened to my friend there wasn't really a hassel, the FSDO just called and asked for the pilot's version of the story.

Nothing further happened. No logbook colonsophy.
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For your reading pleasure:

FAA Notice JO 8020.188

(This notice is cancelled, for reference)

AT JTA 1.3.5

ORDER 8020.11

FAA Form 8020-17

 
steingar said:
I ever feel the need I won't hesitate to declare. I'd rather have FAA personnel poking questions at me than mortuary personnel arranging my corpse.
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Although, being an administrative matter, no jury will ever be involved...
 
RotorAndWing said:
For your reading pleasure:

FAA Notice JO 8020.188

(This notice is cancelled, for reference)

AT JTA 1.3.5

ORDER 8020.11

FAA Form 8020-17
Click to expand...

I'm probably missing it, but those documents discuss investigation of accidents and pilot deviations. I don't see them as being much on point with respect to use of the E word.

I don't think declaring an emergency equals accident, nor does use of the E word constitute a pilot deviation.

In fact, I suspect the opposite is the case, it seems entirely possible to me that the pilot unwilling to use the E word is more likely to 'deviate' than the pilot who does clearly exercise his PIC authority by declaring an emergency.

Having said all that, the KAUS tower guy told my friend that they report all emergencies to the FSDO, for whatever reason.
 
JimNtexas said:
I'm probably missing it, but those documents discuss investigation of accidents and pilot deviations. I don't see them as being much on point with respect to use of the E word.

I don't think declaring an emergency equals accident, nor does use of the E word constitute a pilot deviation.
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Well, further up the thread R&W said:
Emergencies are reported as a Pilot Deviation through the ATQA (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) system by the controller. Then it is assigned to the local FSDO to complete the forms. See Notice N8020.181

The assigned Inspector will complete the form with information obtained and close out the file.
Click to expand...

Which would be consistent with your comment:
Having said all that, the KAUS tower guy told my friend that they report all emergencies to the FSDO, for whatever reason.
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John
 
A fishing expedition would be if the FAA selected a dozen planes at random to check their logs. Here, we had an aircraft malfunction resulting in an emergency (a pilot-determined need for an "immediate return"). The FAA responded by reviewing the aircraft's maintenance. That's a well-focused inquiry, pretty much the opposite of a fishing expedition.
 
Re: Emergency Declaration Triggers FAA Fishing Expedition

Do you think calling it by a different name is going to cause pilots to feel any better about having the FAA going through their logbooks?
 
As usual, I think we are trying to get some sort of standardized answer in how emergencies are handled. We aren't going to get that. Like everything in ATC, it varies on facility.

A pilot, controller or anyone responsible for the operation of the aircraft can declare. What does a controller use to determine what is or isn't an emergency? Best judgment. While Ch 10 in the .65 outlines situations that are obviously emergencies, there's nothing written that gives specific guidance as to what a controller can declare an emergency on.

I declared only once for a pilot when I worked approach. He lost an engine on his Aztec and needed the closest field. After vectoring him and giving the airport essentials (before GPS), I informed him that I'd be handling this as an emergency situation. After landing one tank was empty and the other had about 4 gals in it. I'd say that was an emergency. No it wasn't D Bernath either. :)

The emergency is going to get reported. OK, you MAY not get a call. Maybe the QA guy didn't send it up. Maybe the FSDO rep didn't investigate. I don't know. I do know that we sent up all emergency reports. After that, we didn't care where it went or who investigated it. I've also heard from friends these days, that they send the report to the Regional Operations Center and the DEN. So, you never know what procedure is in place at what facility. Heck in the Army, at one particular field I flew out of, the tower rolled the trucks anytime we declared a PL on the field. That's even before we left. We had no control over that scenario either. It was a local policy in place.
 
John221us said:
When I was flying home from a $100 hamburger run yesterday on ATC flight following, I heard Norcal ask a Seneca "are you declaring an emergency". The Seneca came back and said "no, not at this time. It looks like we have lost a couple of cylinders. If we could get expedited, though, that would be great...."
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:mad2:
 
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