Eliminating circling approaches... or not...

denverpilot

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“The complexity and cost to the FAA of maintaining the instrument flight procedures inventory while expanding the new RNAV capability is not sustainable. Managing two versions of the NAS requires excess manpower, infrastructure, and information management which is costly and unsupportable in the long-term.”

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...es-policy-for-eliminating-circling-approaches

He funny part about this is remember when GPS would make things spiffy and wonderful and there’d be approaches to everything and FreeFlight and FAA was all excited about it? Memberberries? I member!

Oh wait. More approaches means more paperwork and more TERPS checking and more flight checks and...

“Oh CRAP, we can’t do all of that! We don’t have the manpower!”

LOL LOL LOL.
 
It’s about reducing bits and bytes. Reducing the number of ‘lines’ of Circling Minimums. The data bases are running out of room to store everything. Ain’t got nuthin to do with RNAV vs conventional. They both have Circling. Or so I’ve heard
 
It’s about reducing bits and bytes. Reducing the number of ‘lines’ of Circling Minimums. The data bases are running out of room to store everything. Ain’t got nuthin to do with RNAV vs conventional. They both have Circling. Or so I’ve heard

They do. But the VOR only folks need them more often than the RNAV folks.

Usually where there’s one ILS there’s an RNAV to both ends of that same runway.

Not giving them much leeway on their own choices that ballooned the size of their own navdata either, not then I have users filling terabyte local drives in my corner of the IT world, let alone servers. :)
 
“The complexity and cost to the FAA of maintaining the instrument flight procedures inventory while expanding the new RNAV capability is not sustainable. Managing two versions of the NAS requires excess manpower, infrastructure, and information management which is costly and unsupportable in the long-term.”

If that's the case, then they need to talk DoD into ceasing to interfere with GPS signals over such wide areas.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2018/Jul/NTTR_18-10_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

I don't think I've ever seen one that talks about interfering down to 50 feet AGL over such a wide area before, including another nation's airspace.
 

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They do. But the VOR only folks need them more often than the RNAV folks.

Usually where there’s one ILS there’s an RNAV to both ends of that same runway.

Not giving them much leeway on their own choices that ballooned the size of their own navdata either, not then I have users filling terabyte local drives in my corner of the IT world, let alone servers. :)

Ain’t their storage. It’s the amount our things in our airplanes can store. They can only cram so many bits and bytes into a download our card, chip or whateveryacallit can handle. It’s reduce the number of airports you can ‘subscribe’ to or reduce the amount of stuff per airport. I think. That’s what I get out of reading the headlines and a paragraph or two
 
Nooooope

Sorry, this government takes more of MY money than they so kindly allow me to keep, I don’t want to hear why they can’t deliver, I’m not interested in their excuses.

If I had my way I’d ask the FAA if it would help their budget if we removed all the FAAs pensions and benefits? Somehow I think they would figure out a way to make it work.


Hey, here’s an idea, maybe stop with the full pensions and full healthcare for everyone from a senator to a janator, maybe don’t pay low skill people tons of money, maybe treat the money like you had to actually earn it.
 
Ain’t their storage. It’s the amount our things in our airplanes can store. They can only cram so many bits and bytes into a download our card, chip or whateveryacallit can handle. It’s reduce the number of airports you can ‘subscribe’ to or reduce the amount of stuff per airport. I think. That’s what I get out of reading the headlines and a paragraph or two

Their own craptacular certification system created all those storage limited certified devices.

Everything else in tech can pop in a monster sized SD card and fix the problem because the hardware is updated CHEAP.

The certification process holds back what hardware and software can be used in the devices by a decade, and then the silly things can’t take a large SD card or whatever the portable mass storage device of the day is, in any modern tech.

Paying $10,000 for a “certified” GPS that can’t handle a large SD card because the “certified” processor is too slow to even handle it, let alone the card reader chipset itself, is directly related here.

FAA created the certified avionics hardware limitations nightmare.

It’s not all that hard to fix even with the old hardware. Look at the Garmin Flightstream 510 as a solid example of a piece of hardware that could do more...

As it stands, that SD card sized device can create both a WiFi and Bluetooth network and double as a 32 GB storage device.

How about this? Use the “Pack for trip” model from ForeFlight. Have the in panel GPS reach out to a tablet that has all of the navdata in it right after you load a flight plan, and load a swath of airport and approach data as wise as the aircraft’s actual range, from departure to destination following the flight track.

Dump the rest. Only kick stuff out of the SD card storage that is the furthest away from the track to make room for the trip and leave everything else in there.

If the route is Colorado to Wisconsin, you can safely let the in-panel device dump everything west of Utah, and almost everything one State of buffer east of Wisconsin. Won’t be needing Texas or the Gulf coast, or Idaho to Washington State in this flight, either.

That’s just one way to do it. All sorts of ways to skin the “too much data” cat. Get out of the manufacturer’s way and they’d come up with it to keep customers happy via new software, no matter how large the base FAA database becomes.

I don’t think they’re really concerned about what our devices will hold anyway. The original GPS units had to split to regional data loads a long time ago, and FAA wasn’t concerned about it then. I see no reason why they’d care now.

This is about their internal problems with that many approaches. They don’t care if your KLN89 can hold it all. They also won’t care when your spiffy new GTN can’t either.

Their hardware certification process slows down the uptake on hardware that can handle that much data easily. It’s commonplace in consumer electronics. Most people’s DSLR cameras can handle more data than their panel mount GPS can. Easily.

I’m sure the manufacturers would love to offer methods to handle more data or just release cheap new products regularly instead of having a decade or more long product development cycle in the fast-changing tech world.

Hell, let the manufacturer certify some way to suck the data needed off of a simple and cheap USB 3 portable SSD that’s powered from the panel unit, if the problem is storage space.

Panel asks you to plug it in once the flight plan is entered and you can maybe say “lock” your home State or any number of them from being overwritten. Use the rest for the swath of aircraft range that the flight plan covers.
 
Nooooope

Sorry, this government takes more of MY money than they so kindly allow me to keep, I don’t want to hear why they can’t deliver, I’m not interested in their excuses.

If I had my way I’d ask the FAA if it would help their budget if we removed all the FAAs pensions and benefits? Somehow I think they would figure out a way to make it work.


Hey, here’s an idea, maybe stop with the full pensions and full healthcare for everyone from a senator to a janator, maybe don’t pay low skill people tons of money, maybe treat the money like you had to actually earn it.

That is being pursued. It’s called privatization
 
Their own craptacular certification system created all those storage limited certified devices.

Everything else in tech can pop in a monster sized SD card and fix the problem because the hardware is updated CHEAP.

The certification process holds back what hardware and software can be used in the devices by a decade, and then the silly things can’t take a large SD card or whatever the portable mass storage device of the day is, in any modern tech.

Paying $10,000 for a “certified” GPS that can’t handle a large SD card because the “certified” processor is too slow to even handle it, let alone the card reader chipset itself, is directly related here.

FAA created the certified avionics hardware limitations nightmare.

It’s not all that hard to fix even with the old hardware. Look at the Garmin Flightstream 510 as a solid example of a piece of hardware that could do more...

As it stands, that SD card sized device can create both a WiFi and Bluetooth network and double as a 32 GB storage device.

How about this? Use the “Pack for trip” model from ForeFlight. Have the in panel GPS reach out to a tablet that has all of the navdata in it right after you load a flight plan, and load a swath of airport and approach data as wise as the aircraft’s actual range, from departure to destination following the flight track.

Dump the rest. Only kick stuff out of the SD card storage that is the furthest away from the track to make room for the trip and leave everything else in there.

If the route is Colorado to Wisconsin, you can safely let the in-panel device dump everything west of Utah, and almost everything one State of buffer east of Wisconsin. Won’t be needing Texas or the Gulf coast, or Idaho to Washington State in this flight, either.

That’s just one way to do it. All sorts of ways to skin the “too much data” cat. Get out of the manufacturer’s way and they’d come up with it to keep customers happy via new software, no matter how large the base FAA database becomes.

I don’t think they’re really concerned about what our devices will hold anyway. The original GPS units had to split to regional data loads a long time ago, and FAA wasn’t concerned about it then. I see no reason why they’d care now.

This is about their internal problems with that many approaches. They don’t care if your KLN89 can hold it all. They also won’t care when your spiffy new GTN can’t either.

Their hardware certification process slows down the uptake on hardware that can handle that much data easily. It’s commonplace in consumer electronics. Most people’s DSLR cameras can handle more data than their panel mount GPS can. Easily.

I’m sure the manufacturers would love to offer methods to handle more data or just release cheap new products regularly instead of having a decade or more long product development cycle in the fast-changing tech world.

Hell, let the manufacturer certify some way to suck the data needed off of a simple and cheap USB 3 portable SSD that’s powered from the panel unit, if the problem is storage space.

Panel asks you to plug it in once the flight plan is entered and you can maybe say “lock” your home State or any number of them from being overwritten. Use the rest for the swath of aircraft range that the flight plan covers.

Dude. I said a headline and a couple paragraphs.
 
That is being pursued. It’s called privatization

I doubt it, they’ll still have the same amount of money the government blows, just how well also have fees. You ether are 100% private or not, mix the two and it nearly always turns to expensive poop
 
I doubt it, they’ll still have the same amount of money the government blows, just how well also have fees. You ether are 100% private or not, mix the two and it nearly always turns to expensive poop

Yeah. One big difference will be the ratio between working personnel costs and executive compensation.
 
That is being pursued. It’s called privatization
There is a difference between privatizing ATC and everything else in the FAA. The certification division is not part of the privatization effort.
 
There is a difference between privatizing ATC and everything else in the FAA. The certification division is not part of the privatization effort.

Yeah. ATC is the big thing thing they want. At the end of the day it’s just a continuation of the Federal Contract Tower Program. Gets the FAA out of the personnel business. Let the Corporation deal with the hiring and firing, pay, benefits, vacation and sick time and all that stuff. Big change is it would then cover the IFR system, not just VFR Towers. The ‘boss,’ who very likely may have a very vested interest in the ‘efficency’ of a certain segement of the users of the system, may just have a vested interest in being able to influence controllers to make decisions to his advantage and make it so.
 
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That is being pursued. It’s called privatization

Privatization = turning a public good into a private resource. There are some things governments should actually do, and one of those is overseeing and protecting public goods and resources, like airspace. Reform away for personnel, cost, etc., but don't give away public goods to private control. The highway analogy is how you wind up with toll roads. Imagine what it would be like if large trucking operations were tasked to make policy for controlled access to the entire interstate highway system. The ability to fly freely (relatively these days) is something that truly makes America special.
 
Yeah. One big difference will be the ratio between working personnel costs and executive compensation.

I’d start off with getting rid of the people who admit they are unwilling or unable to do their job and work up from there.

Fire Jo who said he can’t make it happen, after Jo walks out to clean out his desk, have his boss move over to the other side of the table and ask him if that’s his opinion too and go from there.

I’d imagine they’d quickly figure out a way to make it work, government workers can get very motivated when they think they are going to get pulled away from the tax payers tit
 
So anyway... circling approaches...

How many have you done in real world conditions...? :)
Several. A couple were just "technically" circling, they were just far enough off centerline to qualify as "circling" rather than straight-in.

I've also flown an LDA with glide slope.
 
I’ve circled to land for real...ish. It was VMC but it was my instrument cross country lesson. We had to circle to land at Rock Springs (KRKS) because the only runway with an approach was under construction. Had there been clouds and no circling, Rock Springs would have been a VFR-only airport for the summer.

Data storage is the dumbest excuse since “the check’s in the mail.” All of the ideas above about how to offload data from an in-panel navigator miss the point that, if you could use OTS SD cards, the navigator would have unlimited storage. The FAA could store all of the circling minima and plates for the entire country on the NSA server that is analyzing this thread and the NSA wouldn’t even notice the disk usage.

The only excuse that makes any sense is the workload of maintaining (flight testing included) the different minima.

And how about this: If you are in VMC with the field in sight (basically if you can meet the circling requirements for what you have to be able to see) at 1000 AGL on an approach, why can’t they just allow you to fly the traffic pattern, land as you see fit, and call to cancel IFR on the ground. We lose a couple hundred feet on some approaches’ circling minima but the FAA loses all of the workload. Oh, and as a bonus, no data storage requirements for the FAA or the panel.
 
I’ve circled to land for real...ish. It was VMC but it was my instrument cross country lesson. We had to circle to land at Rock Springs (KRKS) because the only runway with an approach was under construction. Had there been clouds and no circling, Rock Springs would have been a VFR-only airport for the summer.

Data storage is the dumbest excuse since “the check’s in the mail.” All of the ideas above about how to offload data from an in-panel navigator miss the point that, if you could use OTS SD cards, the navigator would have unlimited storage. The FAA could store all of the circling minima and plates for the entire country on the NSA server that is analyzing this thread and the NSA wouldn’t even notice the disk usage.

The only excuse that makes any sense is the workload of maintaining (flight testing included) the different minima.

And how about this: If you are in VMC with the field in sight (basically if you can meet the circling requirements for what you have to be able to see) at 1000 AGL on an approach, why can’t they just allow you to fly the traffic pattern, land as you see fit, and call to cancel IFR on the ground. We lose a couple hundred feet on some approaches’ circling minima but the FAA loses all of the workload. Oh, and as a bonus, no data storage requirements for the FAA or the panel.

Yeah. Bigger area to find and plot out obstructions and a few more gallons of gas to flight check. On data storage, I dunno, but it’s what I got out of a couple things I read about it. Didn’t Jeppesen quit putting fixes inside the FAF on their subscriptions just to save space?
 
May have been posted before (didn’t read all responses)... circling approaches are outdated imo. They were in existence before gps could put a straight in approach to any runway.
They *can* be completely safe with proper training and execution.

They are all but done in the airline world. I don’t know of any 121 (and few 135) ops that are even approved to do them.
 
May have been posted before (didn’t read all responses)... circling approaches are outdated imo. They were in existence before gps could put a straight in approach to any runway.
They *can* be completely safe with proper training and execution.

They are all but done in the airline world. I don’t know of any 121 (and few 135) ops that are even approved to do them.

That’s the weird part of FAA’s decision. They’re keeping the GPS ones over the ILS/VOR one’s.

If anybody needs those it’s the poor schmuck in some old freighter the boss is too cheap to buy a GPS for...
 
May have been posted before (didn’t read all responses)... circling approaches are outdated imo. They were in existence before gps could put a straight in approach to any runway.
They *can* be completely safe with proper training and execution.

They are all but done in the airline world. I don’t know of any 121 (and few 135) ops that are even approved to do them.
In the early 1990s when I was a pretty newly instrument-rated pilot, I remember hearing an airline pilot in the vicinity of Monterey Airport telling Tower that a circling approach was NOT possible. I think they had just flown an approach with the intention of circling to land and found that the actual ceiling was enough lower than reported so as to be below circling minimums. Sounds like they wouldn't make the attempt today, due to changes in policies and/or ops specs since then.
 
That’s the weird part of FAA’s decision. They’re keeping the GPS ones over the ILS/VOR one’s.

If anybody needs those it’s the poor schmuck in some old freighter the boss is too cheap to buy a GPS for...
Interesting....
 
In the early 1990s when I was a pretty newly instrument-rated pilot, I remember hearing an airline pilot in the vicinity of Monterey Airport telling Tower that a circling approach was NOT possible. I think they had just flown an approach with the intention of circling to land and found that the actual ceiling was enough lower than reported so as to be below circling minimums. Sounds like they wouldn't make the attempt today, due to changes in policies and/or ops specs since then.
No I don’t believe they would.

I’m curious what airline went to Monterey in the 90’s? Major or commuter? The “regionals” were not in full swing during the early nineties.
 
That’s the weird part of FAA’s decision. They’re keeping the GPS ones over the ILS/VOR one’s.

If anybody needs those it’s the poor schmuck in some old freighter the boss is too cheap to buy a GPS for...

Then the freighter boss is in deep doo doo because the ILSs are being unplugged at airports there is not a Cat II or Cat III approach.
 
No I don’t believe they would.

I’m curious what airline went to Monterey in the 90’s? Major or commuter? The “regionals” were not in full swing during the early nineties.
I don't remember what call sign they were using. I don't remember whether I actually saw the airplane either.
 
No I don’t believe they would.

I’m curious what airline went to Monterey in the 90’s? Major or commuter? The “regionals” were not in full swing during the early nineties.

I flew into MRY every summer in the late 80's and early 90's and remember seeing United 737's.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monterey_Regional_Airport#Historical_airline_service

"
Past jet service[edit]
The following airlines scheduled jets to Monterey:

  • United Airlines mainline flights served Monterey from the 1930s until 2001. In 1966 United Convair 340s flew nonstop to San Francisco (SFO) and direct to Los Angeles (LAX) via Santa Barbara.[10] In 1969 all United flights at Monterey were Boeing 727-100s and Boeing 737-200s nonstop to Los Angeles or San Francisco.[11] United later operated Boeing 727-200s, 757-200s and Airbus A320s to Monterey; the United 757 was the largest passenger aircraft ever scheduled to MRY. In 1979-81 United B727-100s flew nonstop to Chicago (ORD) and Denver. In 1942 United Douglas DC-3s flew to Los Angeles, San Francisco and Santa Barbara.[12]
    "
 
We go into GAI some and have had to do a right circle to 32 from the GPS 14 a few times.

Back in the late 80's and 90's we did them all the time into a private airport using an ADF beacon north of the airport. We flew into that airport about 50 times a year.

10 years ago I was based at RBD for a few months. It was normal to fly the ILS to 31 and circle to 13. Because of DAL and DFW traffic, I think they still do it.
 
The only times I've done circling approached were in training, off a VOR. I thought VORs are slowly being decommissioned? If so, I can see the circling approaches being replaced by other GPS based approaches. I was also under the, perhaps mistaken, impression that many commercial operations don't allow circling approaches for their own operations (as mentioned by @Palmpilot ). So I can see these going away without invoking low computer memory or FAA lack of money.
 
So anyway... circling approaches...

How many have you done in real world conditions...? :)

Like every time I returned to my home airport IFR before we got the RNAV approaches installed. All we had was a crappy VOR-A approach with an essentially MVFR MDA (1040 AGL). However, with the advent of LPV approaches almost everywhere, and LNAV straight-ins (and of course having appropriate GPS equipment in the plane), it would be increasingly remote that I will have to fly a circling approach again.
 
Like several others, I have only done circling approaches in training - under the hood, never for real - and on the checkride, where I believe a CTL is required. Most of them I will not miss once they're gone. In most cases a straight-in is preferable to a CTL even with a modest tailwind. Of course, some approaches have ONLY circling minimums (-A, -B, etc.), but my understanding is that those will be kept if they are the only approach to a field. If there is an approach to a runway, I would always use it in preference to a VOR-A or a GPS-A, and nearly always land straight-in instead of CTL.
 
KTEB is like, never done a circling approach? Well hold my beer and watch this lol




The other common one, for me at least, is if I’m coming in to a not very busy airport with my course I’m basically lined up with say RWY 36, but winds are 180 at 20, ceiling not super low but not going to work for taking the visual from way out for 18, I’ll do a circle to save time
 
May have been posted before (didn’t read all responses)... circling approaches are outdated imo. They were in existence before gps could put a straight in approach to any runway.
They *can* be completely safe with proper training and execution.

They are all but done in the airline world. I don’t know of any 121 (and few 135) ops that are even approved to do them.

We're approved for them but require essentially VFR minimums to use them. A rarity, indeed.
 
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