Electronics International

bnt83

bnt83

Final Approach
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Dec 31, 2012
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9,853
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Lincoln NE
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Display name:
Brian
I've got to say I've been very impressed with their reasonable costs and service.

I needed an LOA for the STC to install a used instrument and I did not get a hassle.

I have one OLD instrument and a much newer instrument and the face colors are way off and they said they would replace the face on the older one at a very reasonable cost, so they will match in the end.

Email responses may take a day or two but they have been great so far.
 
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I have a EI CGR-30P engine monitor on order. I hope to be able to install it next week. I can't wait to see it in action. I am getting a major engine overhaul right now and figured it would help me take better care of my new engine.
 
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EI has been a great company to work with. My fuel totalizer was installed in 1995 and has been rock solid. When I decided to update the internal light to LED last year to match the new EI MP and RPM gauges, they charged a reasonable fee and went through the unit as part of the service.

I only wish I knew the CGR-30P was coming out. I would have gone with it over the JPI.

ada4u4ev.jpg
 
I have to chime in here. I agree that their customer service is really good as far responding, or talking to you on the phone goes... but the phone is where it ends.

I bought an MVP-50 and had it installed along with lots of other stuff. I really love the unit, when it all works OK. I have had lots of intermittent problems with it.

  1. Erratic fuel flow indications from day one. On going, likely to give up on it.
  2. Numerous CHT and EGT indications erratic. Usually a connection issue so far, but it keeps happening. I'm dealing with 2 dead EGTs right now.
  3. Fuel tank senders used to report very accurate readings. Now suddenly we're off by 2-3 gallons.
  4. I get buss voltage warnings sometimes when I key the mic on the radio.
  5. I have had several times when the screen refuses to boot up, just a dark screen. Fortunately, it has eventually come up every time after repeated cycling.
Anyhow, it has not been the Shangri-La I had hoped for. Like has been pointed out above, the responsiveness and interaction on the phone has been very good. The problem I have is this. Once they sell the thing to you, they don't really want to deal with it again.

They tell you to take it back to the installer. I have. They tell me everything is A-OK as far as they can tell. I have sent recorded data files to EI showing erratic fuel flows as well as the buss voltage spikes and they replied that my files looked perfectly normal. (I can put a link to a video of the fuel flow reading in action if anybody cares.)

I have suggested bringing my airplane to them so they can see for themselves, but no. They don't touch airplanes. If I want to pay to have my equipment removed, pay for shipping, pay for their diagnostic fees, pay to have the equipment shipped back and pay to have it reinstalled, they would be more than happy to bench test my gear for me. My previous experience with "bench testing" has been pretty poor with other companies.

On the other hand, you're not going to get any better service from JPI either. All I wish I could get from them (or any manufacturer) is the willingness to do a diagnostic that I will pay for, with their equipment actually installed in my plane as it is.

This is apparently too much to ask for. If they get overwhelmed by airplanes coming back to the factory for diagnostics, well then, maybe they will work harder to prevent the equipment from failing, or to make the installation process so easy a monkey could do it correctly.

Just a thought.
 
Dav8or said:
I have to chime in here. I agree that their customer service is really good as far responding, or talking to you on the phone goes... but the phone is where it ends.

I bought an MVP-50 and had it installed along with lots of other stuff. I really love the unit, when it all works OK. I have had lots of intermittent problems with it.

  1. Erratic fuel flow indications from day one. On going, likely to give up on it.
  2. Numerous CHT and EGT indications erratic. Usually a connection issue so far, but it keeps happening. I'm dealing with 2 dead EGTs right now.
  3. Fuel tank senders used to report very accurate readings. Now suddenly we're off by 2-3 gallons.
  4. I get buss voltage warnings sometimes when I key the mic on the radio.
  5. I have had several times when the screen refuses to boot up, just a dark screen. Fortunately, it has eventually come up every time after repeated cycling.
Anyhow, it has not been the Shangri-La I had hoped for. Like has been pointed out above, the responsiveness and interaction on the phone has been very good. The problem I have is this. Once they sell the thing to you, they don't really want to deal with it again.

They tell you to take it back to the installer. I have. They tell me everything is A-OK as far as they can tell. I have sent recorded data files to EI showing erratic fuel flows as well as the buss voltage spikes and they replied that my files looked perfectly normal. (I can put a link to a video of the fuel flow reading in action if anybody cares.)

I have suggested bringing my airplane to them so they can see for themselves, but no. They don't touch airplanes. If I want to pay to have my equipment removed, pay for shipping, pay for their diagnostic fees, pay to have the equipment shipped back and pay to have it reinstalled, they would be more than happy to bench test my gear for me. My previous experience with "bench testing" has been pretty poor with other companies.

On the other hand, you're not going to get any better service from JPI either. All I wish I could get from them (or any manufacturer) is the willingness to do a diagnostic that I will pay for, with their equipment actually installed in my plane as it is.

This is apparently too much to ask for. If they get overwhelmed by airplanes coming back to the factory for diagnostics, well then, maybe they will work harder to prevent the equipment from failing, or to make the installation process so easy a monkey could do it correctly.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

A lot of these issue sound like installation problems. Do you have spade connectors on everything? They are junk. I replaced most of those with the set screw type connectors they sell and the intermittent readings stopped.

Don't know which flow sensor you have or how convoluted your fuel system is but air is the enemy. Supposedly the original older flow sensors were notoriously sensitive to installation variables.

Does the MVP50 use the OEM fuel quantity senders? Are they capacitance type or float type? Float type are the worst. They only measure gaugable fuel that means the level between the full and empty stops which prevent the floats from rubbing the sides of the tanks. The very last gallon(s) from empty and completely full are not measurable.

Float type quantity senders are sensitive to input voltage error. The gauge in the cockpit is nothing more than a current meter and the level sender is a variable resistor.

That all being said, intermittent electrical problems are very frustrating. I worked with the boss on Turbine Cessna 206 with intermittent ITT issues and that bugger was a time pit. There was no way we could charge the customer for the hours we spent troubleshoothing. It came down to a loose pin in the gauge itself that you could barely see move when wiggled. The ITT would only fail at high power settings (when the airplane vibrated).
 
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bnt83 said:
A lot of these issue sound like installation problems. Do you have spade connectors on everything? They are junk. I replaced most of those with the set screw type connectors they sell and the intermittent readings stopped.
Click to expand...

I like this idea. They are spade connectors all over the place and for the life of me I don't understand why they don't work, but they don't. They're so tight I have to use pliers to get the connection apart, yet electricity doesn't seem to reliably flow between them. :dunno: Another problem with them is they are crimped on. The solid core wire seems to fracture and fail at the crimp. That is the issue I have currently.

I think I know the connector you're talking about. Is it the white, nylon sort of terminal strip used in lots of European electronics? IIRC, it comes in a strip of about 10 terminals and you can cut with a knife between them to be the number of terminals you want. Could you point me to what and where you got what you used? Below is what I was thinking of-

70211826_large.jpg


Don't know which flow sensor you have or how convoluted your fuel system is but air is the enemy. Supposedly the original older flow sensors were notoriously sensitive to installation variables.
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The flow transducer is the EI one that came with the MVP-50. I have no idea about the installation variables. It goes between the fuel pump and the fuel servo and in the given space, there's not many options. As to air, well it could be, but I have no idea how air would get in, or how to check. The fuel pump is the only part of the fuel system not recently rebuilt, but I don't want to just go replacing it just to find out.

Does the MVP50 use the OEM fuel quantity senders? Are they capacitance type or float type? Float type are the worst. They only measure gaugable fuel that means the level between the full and empty stops which prevent the floats from rubbing the sides of the tanks. The very last gallon(s) from empty and completely full are not measurable.

Float type quantity senders are sensitive to input voltage error. The gauge in the cockpit is nothing more than a current meter and the level sender is a variable resistor.
Click to expand...
They are the float type. On the advise of my installer, they were sent out and "rebuilt" at the time of the install. I had raised the issue of using the capacitive type, but they didn't think that additional cost necessary. The sender is likely the issue, but who knows? It just sucks that it used to be dead on and now it's not. One hopes for better than just a couple of years of reliable service out of equipment, but I'm finding out that with airplanes, you just can't count on it no matter what you spend on it.

Thanks for your input!
 
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Dav8or said:
I like this idea. They are spade connectors all over the place and for the life of me I don't understand why they don't work, but they don't. They're so tight I have to use pliers to get the connection apart, yet electricity doesn't seem to reliably flow between them. :dunno: Another problem with them is they are crimped on. The solid core wire seems to fracture and fail at the crimp. That is the issue I have currently.

I think I know the connector you're talking about. Is it the white, nylon sort of terminal strip used in lots of European electronics? IIRC, it comes in a strip of about 10 terminals and you can cut with a knife between them to be the number of terminals you want. Could you point me to what and where you got what you used? Below is what I was thinking of-



The flow transducer is the EI one that came with the MVP-50. I have no idea about the installation variables. It goes between the fuel pump and the fuel servo and in the given space, there's not many options. As to air, well it could be, but I have no idea how air would get in, or how to check. The fuel pump is the only part of the fuel system not recently rebuilt, but I don't want to just go replacing it just to find out.
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I think they provide these screw type connectors with all new sales:

http://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/


Difference in flow transducers:

 
Maybe the FF issues is wiring related? I imagine you are fuel injected so the transducer is between the flow divider on the top of the engine and the throttle body. Maybe its just just a dud transducer. IRRC they run ~$170 from Spruce.

Hope you get some stuff sorted out.


I'm adding a FP5 (Fuel Flow) to an old old SR8A (EGT/CHT). The SR8A is so old the face, LCD and backlighting is a different color (almost yellow instead of glowing soft white). I'm a picky bastard so I sent it out to replace everything so hopefully it matches the newer one. I don't like the way the SR8A backlight and dimmer was wired to the airplane either so I'm changing that also, installation issues, not an EI fault.









This is the backup plane for a cross country tour I've been dreaming about so fuel flow will come in handy if we fly it.

 
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bnt83 said:
I think they provide these screw type connectors with all new sales:

http://buy-ei.com/portfolio/olc-1/


Difference in flow transducers:

Click to expand...

I have a new EI CGR30P and am seeing noisier than I expected readings for fuel flow. This is on top of a EGT probe that failed in the first 2 hours of operation, and a CHT and another EGT probe that have begun to fluctuate as well. The shop has redone the connections on the temperature probes and I will see if that corrects those readings this weekend (they are the new style setscrew connectors).

What do you think about the fuel flow readings? I have attached a .pdf file with graphs of fuel flow, EGT (2 cylinders), and CHT (2 cylinders) to this post. It shows a rapid variation of +-2 gpm when operating at nominally 7 gpm. That sure seems like too much variation to me.

I sent an email to EI about this a couple of days ago and so far no response.
 

Attachments

  • EI CGR30P Noisy EGT CHT and Fuel Flow.pdf
    340.5 KB · Views: 7
bkspero said:
I have a new EI CGR30P and am seeing noisier than I expected readings for fuel flow. This is on top of a EGT probe that failed in the first 2 hours of operation, and a CHT and another EGT probe that have begun to fluctuate as well. The shop has redone the connections on the temperature probes and I will see if that corrects those readings this weekend (they are the new style setscrew connectors).

What do you think about the fuel flow readings? I have attached a .pdf file with graphs of fuel flow, EGT (2 cylinders), and CHT (2 cylinders) to this post. It shows a rapid variation of +-2 gpm when operating at nominally 7 gpm. That sure seems like too much variation to me.

I sent an email to EI about this a couple of days ago and so far no response.
Click to expand...

I see a lot of drawings at work that prohibit bundling signal wires, even if shielded, with high current power wires. I’m not an RF engineer so I can't comment on what acceptable separation would be but in GA aircraft there certainly isn't much room to separate signal wiring from power wiring.
:redface:


I wonder how much this comes into play.:confused:
 
bkspero said:
What do you think about the fuel flow readings? I have attached a .pdf file with graphs of fuel flow, EGT (2 cylinders), and CHT (2 cylinders) to this post. It shows a rapid variation of +-2 gpm when operating at nominally 7 gpm. That sure seems like too much variation to me.
Click to expand...

That is about what I see too. Rapid up and down that can be as much as 2 gph. Frustrating because I'd like to use the fuel flow to do the GAMI lean test and it's impossible.
 
bnt83 said:
I see a lot of drawings at work that prohibit bundling signal wires, even if shielded, with high current power wires. I’m not an RF engineer so I can't comment on what acceptable separation would be but in GA aircraft there certainly isn't much room to separate signal wiring from power wiring.
:redface:


I wonder how much this comes into play.:confused:
Click to expand...


That's a good question! My CHTs and EGTs are bundled onto the plug wires. The fuel flow isn't though.
 
Dav8or said:
That is about what I see too. Rapid up and down that can be as much as 2 gph. Frustrating because I'd like to use the fuel flow to do the GAMI lean test and it's impossible.
Click to expand...

I had the same experience with being unable to run the GAMI analysis on SavvyAnalysis.com. I did get an email response from EI shortly after my posting. They suggested that all three noisy readings are likely the result of connection problems. They said that if the setscrew is overtightened the connection can become marginal. We'll see.
 
Dav8or said:
That's a good question! My CHTs and EGTs are bundled onto the plug wires. The fuel flow isn't though.
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Not an issue with mine. Sensor wires are bundled by themselves separate from sparkplug and power wires. At times they pass within a couple of inches of the other leads. Would hope that the system isn't so sensitive that it can't tolerate that. Not all that much room inside of the cowl.

Plus, at least the CHT3 and EGT4 readings were stable for the first 6-8 hours of operation and only developed noise. My guess is that if the problem were electrical noise from power/sparkplug wires, it would have shown up from the start. Then again, why wasn't the connection bad from the start?
 
So I went to the nearest three filling stations with my plastic gas can and compared the dispensed 5 gallons. They were all so close it was difficult to see any real difference. With my "calibrated" gas can, I powered up the fuel flow and let gravity pull fuel thru the fuel pumps on the Cardinal into said 5 gallon can which showed a rate about 16 GPH and it measured 5 gallons on the money. The FP-5(L) measures by the 0.1 gallon FWIW.
 
I had excellent experience with EI. I have the UBG-16 and found it to be very accurate on all the parameters. On the EGT you can adjust on one degree resolution without any jumpiness. Their support is very good and prompt. Very happy with them.

José
 
Regarding erratic fuel readings, you may like to read this.

The flow sensor wires must be shielded and the shield must go to the airframe, not to the instrument ground pin or some such.

My EGTs on the EDM700 go for a walkabout over about 20F, and it is caused by the strobes.
 
peter-h said:
Regarding erratic fuel readings, you may like to read this.

The flow sensor wires must be shielded and the shield must go to the airframe, not to the instrument ground pin or some such.

My EGTs on the EDM700 go for a walkabout over about 20F, and it is caused by the strobes.
Click to expand...


Be aware folks, he is talking about a Shadin computer with the very old flow scan transducer in that link.

I don't see how shielding could hurt anything at all and yes, I'm surprised they aren't. Even if they are, EMI/RFI can still cause problems. Any high powered device that is malfunctioning can interfere with a completely different and unrelated and properly functioning system.
 
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Turns out that there was at least one other misconfiguration of my CGR30P as it came from EI. It caused (or at least contributed to) the erratic fuel flow readings. There is a FF smoothing filter setting in the CGR30P software, and mine was mistakenly set for a fuel injected engine when it should have been set for a carbureted engine. Fuel flow to a carburetor is apparently less uniform than it is to fuel injectors, so FF data requires more smoothing for a carbureted engine. Without that, the output is noisy as some of us have seen.

My original order for the CGR30P indicated that it was for an O-360. They knew it was not fuel injected. It was just another case of sloppy order fulfillment.

Over the phone at the plane they provided instructions for making the change. I'll check its effect next weekend and report back.

Dave, if your engine is carbureted you might want to check into the Fuel Flow software filter setting.
 
bkspero said:
Dave, if your engine is carbureted you might want to check into the Fuel Flow software filter setting.
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Nope, it injected. Maybe I have the filtering program in mine and it's turned on instead of off? I'll have to check. I'm not sure I can adjust it or not, because the MVP-50 is certified for use as primary instruments, the owner/pilot is locked out of a lot of calibration and adjustment parameters. You're supposed to take it back to the dealer and they have the unlock code.
 
Piloto said:
I had excellent experience with EI. I have the UBG-16 and found it to be very accurate on all the parameters. On the EGT you can adjust on one degree resolution without any jumpiness. Their support is very good and prompt. Very happy with them.

José
Click to expand...

:yes:

I had to have my UBG-16 repaired. They have a max charge of <$300 for any type of problem. My unit was >10 years old, and now it looks brand new.
 
Dav8or said:
That is about what I see too. Rapid up and down that can be as much as 2 gph. Frustrating because I'd like to use the fuel flow to do the GAMI lean test and it's impossible.
Click to expand...

Sorry you are having all these problems. I have about 40 hours recently flying a lycoming IO-360 with gami's and an MVP-50. A great set up. Didn't have any issues at all with it.
 
dell30rb said:
Sorry you are having all these problems. I have about 40 hours recently flying a lycoming IO-360 with gami's and an MVP-50. A great set up. Didn't have any issues at all with it.
Click to expand...

I do like the MVP-50 and it's features. I'm not sorry I chose it over the JPI 930 even though the vast majority of Mooney pilots say go JPI. I have ordered the OLC-1 connectors and we'll see if they make things better.
 
This is the same instrument before and after EI repair.


 
Not quite what I had in mind but I can live with it.

(Click for video)

 
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